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CommaToes posted:The only big guy you NEED is the Bloodthirster. Everything else is down to personal taste. Having said that, minos on chaos are a bad idea, what's wrong with you Jade Star? Chaos (typically) win by removing the enemy team from the field. Mino's take 6 SPP to make a 5 str, Claw + MB player. Who else does that? Blood Thirsters and Norse Yehtee. One of which you endorse in the post in the same post where you say that Chaos Mino's are a bad idea. For the Mino itself: A Choas Mino is a 5 Str, 6 with horns, Claw MB weapon. It's job is to kill the other teams Big Guy, and it does that well. It turns other Big Guys with AV 9 and 5 strength into a 2db, AV 7 + MB block. Single handedly. If you don't see the value in that then there is nothing more to explain. Mino's are a weapon. A very effective one. At one regular skill roll they are enough to kill other big guys, or anything else you point them at. Beyond that they are the only thing on the team with Frenzy, a fact often over looked and can lead to frenzy crowd surfs. Skill them up further and they become terrifying. Either continue to skill them for death with Piling On, put Stand Firm on them so you can't be counter surfed, or go for utility skills such as tentacles. For the team: Chaos is a strength based team. This is evident in that every single player on the team roster has strength access. They are a Big Guy + 4 Str4's + The rest with GSM access. Not taking a Mino means you are making an active choice to sabotage your teams main asset, strength. Match up against another team with an abundance of strength and you have handicapped yourself. Chaos Warriors are the backbone of the team, but they can't carry the line or control the game if they are on the ground because the other guy brought a Str5 guy and can tie up two of your warriors. This goes especially for other teams that have a core of Str4 players. Orcs, Nurgle, Lizards, etc. They will beat you at the point of attack every time because they bring the same Str4's to the fight, and their Big Guy will be the difference. For other teams, most carry Big Guy's too. Humans, Norse, Undead, Khemri, Skaven, even Wood Elfs and Dwarfs can carry Big Guys. Having no counter to that does not fit into the Chaos game plan. Warriors deal with other strong players, Beastmen deal with the regulars, and Mino's deal with the other Big Guy, then work their way down the food chain. I will not say Mino's are not with out problems. Wild Animal sucks. Using blitzes to get a Mino back to its feet is very annoying and can be problematic. It is AV 8, most Big Guys are 9. They eat a lot of Team Value. Having said that, Mino's on Chaos are a good idea. What is wrong with you CommaToes?
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Aug 24, 2014 10:49
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CommaToes posted:The only big guy you NEED is the Bloodthirster. Everything else is down to personal taste. Having said that, minos on chaos are a bad idea, what's wrong with you Jade Star?
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Aug 24, 2014 13:23
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Jade Star posted:Having said that, Mino's on Chaos are a good idea. What is wrong with you CommaToes? Some see a wild animal loner as a very bad murder piece in the long term. Chaos warrior only needs dubs to get jump up too while the minotaur needs dubs just to get block. So if you want consistency, minotaurs are very bad.
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Aug 24, 2014 13:44
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Iretep posted:Some see a wild animal loner as a very bad murder piece in the long term. Chaos warrior only needs dubs to get jump up too while the minotaur needs dubs just to get block. So if you want consistency, minotaurs are very bad. But that's the case with all Big Guys. And if that's your stance, and you don't use Big Guys on any team I can understand it. The thing is though that CommaToes explicitly called out a Chaos Mino, which has the same negative traits as the Big Guy he endorsed.
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Aug 24, 2014 13:54
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Jade Star posted:But that's the case with all Big Guys. And if that's your stance, and you don't use Big Guys on any team I can understand it. one big difference, chaos is on a team with lots of str 4, making str 5 less impactful. That said, only losers don't take big guys. If what you're doing can't be dicked over by a bad dice roll, you're not playing blood bowl, and big guys understand and facilitate this.
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Aug 24, 2014 14:06
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Jade Star posted:But that's the case with all Big Guys. And if that's your stance, and you don't use Big Guys on any team I can understand it. Some big guys are good because either you have nothing better to buy or you dont actually need to do anything but stand them next to guys. Lizards krox is a good example of a must buy big guy. If you don't buy him you get a skink instead who isn't all that great. His main job is also to just stand around and be annoying so he's not much risk of causing a turnover or wasting rerolls.
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Aug 24, 2014 14:44
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Jade Star posted:But that's the case with all Big Guys. And if that's your stance, and you don't use Big Guys on any team I can understand it. The only teams that 'should' take big guys are teams that lake strength 4+ positionals (Goblins, Halflings, Humans, Khorne, Skaven, Underworld). Dwarves and Lizardmen are exceptions to this, Dwarves because they get near-universal Guard and the Deathroller is crap, Lizardmen because that's one less Stunty they have to field. Wood Elves can take or leave their Treeman, though in general they have other things they would rather spend their money on. That said, big guys are fun and absolutely usable and you should feel free to take them if you want.
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Aug 24, 2014 15:04
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FoolyCharged posted:needs more excessive backstory I'm pretty sure I killed off Frank's family in his backstory, so you need to raise him from the dead first.
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Aug 24, 2014 15:11
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A pretty important factor w/r/t teambuilding that I'm not going to address in the videos is building for open league play vs building for a tournament Somebody building a team for open league play would be more willing to buy a Big Guy and build around him, mostly because they are very good at punching and also punching other Big Guys on other people's teams. Also, money isn't an issue as often in the open league because you can just keep playing games forever and slowly accumulate wealth. In a tournament setting, where you're playing like 6-12 matches, you need to justify your purchases. Is a big guy worth the money? What does he bring to the table? More often then not, tournament teams will skip the big guy because they need the funds elsewhere, or because they don't offer enough value to justify spending the money on. The fact that other players aren't buying big guys also devalues the Big Guy on your team, because there's no enemy Big Guy for your Big Guy to punch. There's still plenty of other juicy targets, sure, but most opposing teams are OK with having your expensive big guy smack around a lineman or two. This is the context in which SDS said "Skaven are one of the few teams that need the big guy". "Always" is a bit extreme, sure, but the Rogre offers so much more to a Skaven team than say the Mino does to Chaos, or the Troll does to Orc. In the short term, tournament mindset, at least. Not only can they take up resources which can thin out the field and offer more room for Gunners to dodge around, but they pack the punch that a Skaven team might need vs a high strength opponent. Frenzy and Prehensile Tail out of the box also means the Rogre is very good at busting through lines and marking players, which makes the Rogre a very useful part of your defense against both cagey, high STR teams and agile, elfy teams. Ultimately I think it's a matter of taste. Other than the gimmick teams (Goblin, Halfling, Ogre) you don't really "need" a big guy. If your play style and your team composition dictates that a Big Guy would be valuable to your team, then take him. If you don't think you could do enough with him to justify the purchase, or if your team doesn't need him, don't. If you're new to the game maybe avoid Big Guys at first until you figure out your play style, and then try them out. I mean personally I don't take Big Guys on a team which already has several ST4 players (except for the Krox cause he's the best) but there's no golden rule on which team shouldn't take a Big Guy and which should
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Aug 24, 2014 15:38
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goatface posted:I'm pretty sure I killed off Frank's family in his backstory, so you need to raise him from the dead first. Nah, I just need to pull a soap opera and say it turns out he was never dead, but couldn't tell his father about it because if he did the dark elves would kill both of em.
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Aug 24, 2014 16:04
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Iretep posted:Some see a wild animal loner as a very bad murder piece in the long term. Chaos warrior only needs dubs to get jump up too while the minotaur needs dubs just to get block. So if you want consistency, minotaurs are very bad. Something about this, and then GNU's post clicked to me. You say Chaos warriors only need dubs for jump up, and talking about minos, kill pieces, etc. All pretty fair and I'm with you. Then I thought about GNU's post and Rat Ogres and realized the same can be said for Skaven. Storm Vermin are only doubles away from Claw. Giving you a what, 7-3-3-8 Claw+MB blitzer. So suddenly everything seems very parallel to Chaos, only Rat Ogre is a hero and Mino isn't. Both Big Guy's are Wild Animal, which blows, and run the risk of never having block, or consistency, and Av 8. If people are going to sing praises about prehensile tail (which I personally consider complete poo poo), then they need to sing the praises of a Mino with Tentacles (I also consider Tentacles complete poo poo). So you say get dubs on a Choas Warrior while Mino needs Dubs for block. Okay, cool, so a dubs roll and you have a more reliable piece killer in a Chaos Warrior than the Mino. But put dubs on a Storm Vermin and you have a much deadlier and more reliable basher than the Rat Ogre will ever be. Chaos win through bashing. Skaven win though Gutter Runners and rat-bullshit. How the piece that helps you bash more is poorly spoken of on the team that wins by bashing and how the player that helps you bash more on the team that wins through speed and ball handling is just backward. And then, totally to GNU's open league play versus Tournament schedule. I speak from the experience of online open league, and league play. Never played a tournament that was start a brand new team and the tournament will be over in less than 10 matches.
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Aug 24, 2014 16:19
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Jade Star posted:Chaos win through bashing. Skaven win though Gutter Runners and rat-bullshit. How the piece that helps you bash more is poorly spoken of on the team that wins by bashing and how the player that helps you bash more on the team that wins through speed and ball handling is just backward. I don't think you're giving Chaos and Skaven enough credit for their versatility. Chaos can be, and is not very hard to make, a serviceable elfy team. In tournament play, yes, it's probably easier to play them the way you said due to their starting skills (but even then, chaos don't have much in the way of starting skills), but in an open league, an elfy chaos team and a murder skaven team are just as likely to be seen and effective as the ones you mentioned.
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Aug 24, 2014 16:26
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I'm giving them exactly as much credit as my years on fumbbl and Cyanide have earned them. Skaven are not a murder team. Try as hard as you like, there are only three players on the team that will be threats. Two Storm Vermin that take a doubles roll to get Claw. And the Rat Ogre who has 5 strength and Mighty Blow, the same as 90% of the other Big Guy's out there. A Rat Ogre will never be more dangerous as he develops either. He starts with Mighty Blow, and ends with it. Doubles nets you Block, and maybe, if you score a second doubles roll you get Claw. So three threats. Two require doubles, and one is exactly as threatening as almost any other Big Guy on any other team. Then, the rest of your team are AV 7 blood filled SPP pinatas that will explode on contact with anything else even close to a real bashy team. 'Chaos can be, a serviceable elfy team'... More like a poor mans elfy team. Beastmen are 60TV, 6-3-3-8, and horns, which I will ignore because horns don't help handle the ball. If they want to do anything with the ball or dodge, it's a 3+. For 20TV more they can add a plus one to one specific role. Extra Arms for pick up or catch, two heads for dodge, it's all great when you can't get +AG or agility access. But if that's your goal, High Elf linemen are 6-3-4-8 and 70TV. 10TV more than your Chaos line and 30TV less than a Beastman that can dodge and ball handle as well. I have seen many, many attempts at elfing Chaos. Some actually work. Most don't. Even the ones that work would be better off having just started as a different team, it's the coaches skill that makes it work, not the teams.
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Aug 24, 2014 19:19
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gently caress Skaven in their dirty rat anuses. Still, that was a good half of Blood Bowl
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Aug 25, 2014 00:23
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goatface posted:I'm pretty sure I killed off Frank's family in his backstory, so you need to raise him from the dead first. Welp, good thing we're playing a Necromantic team then, cause that's their specialty.
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Aug 25, 2014 00:35
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It's how Frank got in the team, it might as well start a family tradition.
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Aug 25, 2014 00:42
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jBrereton posted:You don't need a 'Thirster. You can play Khorne like a weird Agi 3 elfy/positional team with pretty strong blitzes and wide skill access without one, and have Block on all of your Cultists for the same TV. Holy poo poo, yes you do. I can point to the video earlier where General Secretary Stalin dismantled Gnu's zombies. The thirster provides things to Khorne that no one else can get on the team, and he's the only strength above 3 that the team has access to at level 1. Khorne NEEDS that thirster. I've made khorne teams without a starting thirster and it's a miserable slog every time to get one. AG3 makes a poor man's elf team.
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Aug 25, 2014 02:05
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Gaghskull posted:Holy poo poo, yes you do. I can point to the video earlier where General Secretary Stalin dismantled Gnu's zombies. The thirster provides things to Khorne that no one else can get on the team, and he's the only strength above 3 that the team has access to at level 1. Khorne NEEDS that thirster. I've made khorne teams without a starting thirster and it's a miserable slog every time to get one. AG3 makes a poor man's elf team. This ^ The Thirster is pretty much the reason to play Khorne. Best Big Guy in the entire game. Why would you not use him? PotatoManJack fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 02:13
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Jade Star posted:I'm giving them exactly as much credit as my years on fumbbl and Cyanide have earned them. I don't think I've ever seen a rat team that took the rat ogre with the intention of using him as a clawpomber. He's taken usually because he's st5 on a team that has no high st players othervise. His job is pretty much to stand around and be annoying. He's one of the more debated players in general anyway. A lot of rat players don't take him and a lot of rat players do take him. As far as murder goes, rats are perfectly happy with 2 clawpombers. At least I've found that going over 2 is kind of waste on most teams. They are there to remove any real threats the opposing team has. 2 is mainly ideal in case the other one gets killed too fast.
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Aug 25, 2014 03:35
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Why would you ever give a WA big guy PO. They'll never stand up ever. This goes double with PHT-havers. tail doesn't work if you're on the pitch.
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Aug 25, 2014 07:56
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Veloxyll posted:Why would you ever give a WA big guy PO. They'll never stand up ever. I agree with Veloxyll in this. The teams that have a Wild Animal Big Guy (except Norse) have access to Claw in other pieces, so the clawpomb combo doesn't require a Big Guy. Putting your relatively low AV, expensive Big Guy on the ground doesn't seem a good idea. Regarding the need of a Big Guy in Chaos, I just bought a Cow in a 11-player, 1600 TV team. It's not farmed, but it's built to scare random players into conceding the match (as much block and claw and guard as I can get, piling on is the next skillup for basically everyone who isn't LoS fodder). Even with the extra TV, I've noticed I'm putting much more pressure on the opposing team with the minotaur in the field. The Frenzy isn't bad with lots of guard around, and I prefer Wild Animal to Bone-Headed. Big Guys should be in the middle of the scrum so they can actually be useful takind down oponents, so most of the time you have the same chance of proc in the negatrait, but if you fail your figure doesn't become completely useless for a turn.
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Aug 25, 2014 09:11
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Judging by how much debate there is over whether the Rat Ogre is worth it or not it sounds like he is in fact 'balanced' pretty much perfectly.
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Aug 25, 2014 09:36
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 Second Half!Fairly Elected (GNU Order, Necromantic) vs All The Pieces Matter (MinRob, Skaven)   Voting What skill do we give Santos Von Hammerstein (Ghoul, Blodge Diving Catch, normals)? What do we do with our spare cash? 1. Buy one zombie (replace Franken Castle) Don't forget zombies need a name and a backstory as to how they died, were revived, and recruited to the team 2. Buy two zombies (replace Franken Castle and fire and replace Riff Raff) Don't forget zombies need a name and a backstory as to how they died, were revived, and recruited to the team 3. Buy a 4th reroll (We can't afford a reroll and a zombie right now, but I will surely get enough money next match to buy a zomb or two) 4. Save the money, do nothing (this leaves us with 11 players going into the next match, and 12 players after Riff Raff recovers) 5. Something else? Whatever the current joke option is Cheerleaders did a single thing, rejoice! SDS is preoccupied so I'll be playing the part of  Santos has demonstrated quite clearly that he is the best performer on the team, so the question of what to give him becomes "What skill would best equip him to continue to style on fools?" There are a couple good options, in no particular order Side Step - Side Step is a great skill both offensively and defensively. It offers tons of versatility as it allows me to control where Santos stands after he gets punched. This combined with Blodge makes him very hard to pin down or shake off, depending on the situation. Can't go wrong with Side Step. Sure Hands - Given how bad I am at rolling dice, any skill which can allow your player to reroll actions without using team rerolls is a great option. While giving Santos Sure Hands will greatly increase the likelihood that he's the one who receives kickoffs, it does not guarantee that. Santos is almost always hovering just outside the action and in position to scoop up the ball if it gets knocked out of somebody's hands, and given how many times he's picked up the ball so far, Sure Hands is sure to see some use going forward. Jump Up - If you remember from the Norse match, Jump Up is a skill that lets you move your full movement after you get knocked down. Normally when your player gets knocked down, they're penalized 3 MA when they stand up and attempt to move. Now, Santos is a Blodger but, as evidenced in the videos, that doesn't mean he's invulnerable to knockdowns. So, taking Jump Up means that after a knockdown Santos can (most likely) dodge away and move his full 7 movement squares to go continue being Santos somewhere else. You can also attempt to throw blocks from on the ground (it's an Agility roll +1, so Santos would roll a 2+ to attempt to block from the ground. If he fails he stays on the ground but it doesn't use up your Blitz action which is great). It's a lot more situational than Side Step or even Sure Hands, and of the three skills it's the one that would see the least amount of use, but it can be very valuable in the right situation. GNU Order fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 00:25
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Sure Hands, buy one zombie. e: Flesh Aaaah Gordon is the best god drat Flolem. 
TheMcD fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 00:30
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Side Step, buy two zombies!
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Aug 26, 2014 00:53
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Sure Feet is a good skill for Ghouls to have. It's much surer than Sure Hands. Couple of GFIs would've made Santos Skavenproof last game. Money vote: Don't buy a reroll, do get 2 zombs. The team is becoming more reliable as the skills get spread around (or at least you aren't losing RRs when things gently caress up), don't inflate your TV. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 00:57
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Side step, buy one zombie.
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Aug 26, 2014 00:59
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>Wight Power HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Hahahaha Ha This poo poo writes itself at this point. As for my vote, Get the two new zombies for our money. And get Side Step for our ghoul for maximum irritation/big plays. TheNabster fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 01:20
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Diving Tackle to go with Diving Catch. We need more Diving if this team is going to be taken seriously. Buy a new Zombie. His name will be Franken Castle. Franken Castle was a zombie in his previous unlife. Then he undied and everyone missed him so they raised him from un-undeath so that he might redeem himself.
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Aug 26, 2014 01:25
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Sidestep for Santos so he'll be the ultimate rear end in a top hat on the pitch. New zombie, the son of Franken Castle, Castlesteen. Bonus points if the next ghoul's called Eyegore.
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Aug 26, 2014 01:27
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Side Step means Santos can run down the sides and not be too scared of getting surfed and makes him into even more of a super ghoul. ' Spend money on one new zombie. While I would love to name him F.K II: Electric Zombaloo I don't think that it will fit. But if it fits that is what I want it named. Thus I suggest we call him Robin Williams the comedian much loved by all kids of the 90s may have sadly passed away but it is OK because he returns to help Fairly Elected win it's way to the top. He will bounce that ball like Flubber and have the magic of Genie as he blitz's his way to victory. Gridlocked fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 01:35
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Side Step, Two Zombies.
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Aug 26, 2014 01:45
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Sidestep For Santos Two Zombies Name one of them Mykill Jackson Backstory: Back in his living days, Michael was a troubled man. He generally only found comfort in the time he spent with his animal friends at his Neverland Ranch. However, as all stars that burn brightest, Michael's burnt out all too soon. However, in death, Michael found himself in the afterlife pondering all the poor animals that died in order to make footballs for the Blood Bowl leagues. The anger this caused him gave him enough passion to rise from the grave, in order to take to the Blood Bowl pitch, and attempt to murder every player he could so that one day he might end the slaughter of poor poor animals in order to make footballs. edit: SHAMONE! PotatoManJack fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 02:02
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Gridlocked posted:Side Step means Santos can run down the sides and not be too scared of getting surfed and makes him into even more of a super ghoul. ' +1 Vote for skills, zombie, and name.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:04
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Sure Hands for the skill 1. Buy a Zombie named Franken Castle II After Franken Castle was put to (second) rest, and subsequently thrown out round back of the pitch, some enterprising young Necromancer decided to re-resurrect him as a joke. Surprisingly, he succeeded and the next day a Zombie that looked oddly like Franken Castle walked into the Fairly Elected offices and asked if they were hiring.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:29
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Buy two zombies. One of them will be named Skulk Hogan. In a desperate bid to regain fame and publicity, Hulk Hogan attempted to film a sex tape with the intention of leaking it onto the internet for a quick and juicy scandal. Tragedy struck, however, when his deteriorating body seized up and collapsed from a massive heart attack before he could even achieve erection. He didn't even manage to stay dead for the duration of his wake, however, suddenly stumbling to his feet and lurching out of the funeral home where he accosted a news reporter, attempting awkwardly to eat her brains. Mistaking the threat to her life for an inappropriate advance, the reporter grimaced in disgust and batted him away with her microphone, where he quickly wandered off into the wilderness underneath the TV news headline "Wrestler Fakes Own Death -- Most Distasteful Publicity Stunt Ever?" He joined Fairly Elected by standing next to Santos's autograph line and crying loudly that nobody loved him anymore. It was Dr. Wight who decided to play a prank on him, asking Hogan for his autograph and handing him a six-thousand-year Blood Bowl contract. Nobody knows why he came back to life after his heart attack in the first place, but it was probably because he's turned into such an attention-starved little poo poo.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:39
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Side Step sounds like a good skill for Santos. Buy 2 Zombies. One of them will be Thin Tony, a former mobster who displeased the don and was subsequently sent to sleep with the fishes. This was later deemed too good a fate for him, so the don had him raised and placed him on a Blood Bowl team as a punchable lineman.
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Aug 26, 2014 03:02
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jump up 2 zombies
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Aug 26, 2014 03:04
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Sides step and two zombies. Name one of the Zombies Franken Castle. Franken Castle died, but fortunately it was only a mild case, not fatal.
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Aug 26, 2014 04:59
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Sure Hands Two Zombies, one named Franken Castle II Piell fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 05:23
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