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The biggest deal for me was Yag's insistence that his crime "couldn't be understood by humans." He used the complexities of his society's abstracted justice system to pull the old "you wouldn't consider it a crime" defense. Considering that Yag was familiar enough about New Crobuzon society to explain the difference to Isaac, he knew full well that Isaac would in fact consider it a crime, because it's rape, and so was dishonest from the get-go. The hurt, for me, came from that betrayal. Not to mention the fact that as far as I could tell Isaac had no actual ability to ever make Yag fly. He had a great pitch, but at the end of the day all Isaac could get out of his crisis energy theory was a light that made the big bad slakemoths show up. And considering some of the stuff Uther Doul says about the way the world works in The Scar, my theory is that Isaac was close to correct but not quite there.
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Aug 20, 2014 02:20
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Wasn't the whole crisis energy a variant of the whole Ghosthead empire's possibility tech?
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Aug 20, 2014 03:27
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amuayse posted:Wasn't the whole crisis energy a variant of the whole Ghosthead empire's possibility tech? That's the implication, yes. My operating metaphor is Isaac went down the atomic path ("crisis energy", turning potential into kinetic), and the Ghosthead empire pursued a learned and studied "possibility mining" via a more mature quantum path. The connotations of the phrases for the fields is a big deal.
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Aug 20, 2014 15:21
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I finished Perdido Street Station a few weeks ago after reading it off and on for about a year and a half, and I have to say I really hated it at the time. It seemed like the ending wasn't just an unhappy ending, it was specifically calculated to be as unhappy as possible while still resolving the main conflict, which honestly made me roll my eyes at parts of it. It's one thing to say "New Crobuzan is kind of a lovely place" and quite another to say "Everyone in the entire book gets shat on in the most horrific ways possible, crippled and ruined, and the character who has shown the most growth as an individual just happens to be a rapist." In retrospect the ending has grown on me at least a little bit, but I still wouldn't peg it as some kind of revelatory masterwork or anything. In fact, when I finished Perdido Street Station I began reading The Scar almost out of spite. I figured if I went into it with a better understanding of Bas-Lag and China's style I couldn't get suckered nearly as hard by whatever ending was in store for me - plus, I'd had a copy sitting around collecting dust for like three years. And, well...it completely sucked me in. I freaking loved every page of that book, down to the last sentence. I actually ended up staying up until 3:30 AM finishing it off, something I don't think I've done for probably five years now. I think what really set it apart for me was the pacing and narrative style - while PSS does a good job of illustrating New Crobuzan and it's grimy weirdness, the pacing is very slow (the central conflict doesn't really come into play until past a third of the way into the book, which says a lot when it's 800+ pages) and most of the descriptions of the city are completely tangential to the characters themselves. The Scar on the other hand seemed to have a much tighter narrative, where the fantastic settings were described as the characters encountered them out of necessity if nothing else. The settings for both are wild and imaginative, but TS really made them feel alive. Plus, the ending was much, MUCH less of a kick in the guts.
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Aug 24, 2014 20:14
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Ryoshi posted:Plus, the ending was much, MUCH less of a kick in the guts. My opinions is the complete opposite. The Scar's ending made me feel like the whole book was pointless, and while i enjoy it more each time i re-read it. The ending is still one of the main reasons i don't consider it among his best books.
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Aug 24, 2014 21:05
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I just started the Scar and I have to say I enjoy the way its written much more than Perdido Street. In PSS, Mieville really writes like he has something to prove, that he's constantly groping for the thesaurus to find a more latinized synonym for a common word. The Scar is written with much more confidence in his setting, plot, and characters. And Armada is fantastical, ridiculous and charming, so its a welcome change of pace from New Crobuzon. Considering its China Mieville though, I'm positive it'll end up at the bottom of the sea before the narrative is over.
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Aug 25, 2014 01:18
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The Scar has the happiest ending of all three Bas-Lag books.
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Aug 25, 2014 01:58
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Hedrigall posted:The Scar has the happiest ending of all three Bas-Lag books. For real, i thought Iron Council was the best of them but it also made me want to never read anything about new crobuzon again unless it involves the government and militia finally getting what's coming to them iron council actually had the mayor get hers and it didn't change a damned thing 
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Aug 25, 2014 02:02
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andrew smash posted:For real, i thought Iron Council was the best of them but it also made me want to never read anything about new crobuzon again unless it involves the government and militia finally getting what's coming to them Game never changes, man. e: also, for example, the books already made it clear that most of the tech in the city is out of repair and/or useless without its original designers, all of whom are long dead. Even if this lovely corrupt government completely falls and there's a revolution, what are the actual chances the New Crobuzon would transform into anything but an anarchy-hosed crater? edit edit: also while im here Ryoshi posted:New Crobuzan (x2) mate you just read the book Hard Clumping fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Aug 25, 2014 |
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Aug 25, 2014 02:30
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In mildly interesting news, Dial H is getting a deluxe hardcover next year with all 16 issues: http://www.amazon.com/Dial-H-Deluxe-New-52/dp/1401255205/
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Aug 25, 2014 02:36
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Oasx posted:My opinions is the complete opposite. The Scar's ending made me feel like the whole book was pointless, and while i enjoy it more each time i re-read it. The ending is still one of the main reasons i don't consider it among his best books. Can you elaborate on this? I thought the ending really wrapped things up nicely and seemed really inline with the themes of the rest of the book, so I'm really curious about what you think it was lacking/what made it feel pointless.
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Aug 26, 2014 03:25
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Ryoshi posted:Can you elaborate on this? I thought the ending really wrapped things up nicely and seemed really inline with the themes of the rest of the book, so I'm really curious about what you think it was lacking/what made it feel pointless. I'm guessing its the parents stopping and turning this armada around . I gotta say I agree. The journey was great but the ending felt anti-climatic and cheap.
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Aug 26, 2014 03:47
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Mike N Eich posted:There's so many little nods to leftist politics that I appreciated as well. The seditionist paper reads like every boring Socialist Worker article, and Derkhan and Isaac are both lovable swipes at the type of radicals you'll run into at universities or in the streets. Man you're going to love Iron Council.
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Aug 26, 2014 04:05
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andrew smash posted:For real, i thought Iron Council was the best of them but it also made me want to never read anything about new crobuzon again unless it involves the government and militia finally getting what's coming to them
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Aug 26, 2014 04:25
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Ravenfood posted:I need to reread Iron Council, but I thought it was easily his weakest Bas-Lag book. Something about the plot just seemed so scattered and non-focused, even compared to PSS. Mieville books tend to fall into two camps for me - riveting stories that evoke a rich world like Perdido and Scar; and stories that are just one thing happening after another like Iron Council and Kraken. Railsea strayed into a narrow window between the two, but eventually fell into the great story camp.
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Aug 26, 2014 06:32
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andrew smash posted:For real, i thought Iron Council was the best of them but it also made me want to never read anything about new crobuzon again unless it involves the government and militia finally getting what's coming to them I like Iron Council mostly due to how it displays sectarian political movements and their evergoing futility. It is not his best Bas-Lag, which in my opinion is The Scar. The Scar contains intrigues within intrigues and fantastical creatures displayed as per default. The anticlimatic ending is actually kinda fitting to the whole story.
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Aug 26, 2014 07:53
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I know Isaac is black, and I want him to be Fat Idris Elba, but my brain just makes him Bob Hoskins. I don't know why. Also, I might make "Fat Idris Elba" my new Steam name. E: WHITE PRIVELEGE WHITE PRIVELEGE (it is because Bob Hoskins is the only guy I've seen pull off 'old son') Solid Poopsnake fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 13:21
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Isaac is clearly fat Chiwetel Ejiofor  
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Aug 26, 2014 13:58
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Thats pretty much my mental image of him as well.
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Aug 27, 2014 14:50
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He's clearly Bunk, from the wire.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:05
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I just started reading Kraken! It's got a lot of Neil Gaimen style elements of that vague urban fantasy atmosphere with so much of China's specific style of weirdness that I just love it all over. He should make a claymation movie of something. I'm about 70% in and my absolute favorite bit is transporter guy haunted by his own ghosts. It's the most surprising and perfect thing I've ever seen.
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Sep 3, 2014 17:41
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It's hilarious and sharp enough that I can forgive the lack of intellectual rigor behind it.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:49
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I love the way it starts off a vaguely Gaiman-esque London with magic around the edges and then Gus and Subby appear and it just gets progressively more bat poo poo from there.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:59
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Junkenstein posted:I love the way it starts off a vaguely Gaiman-esque London with magic around the edges and then Gus and Subby appear and it just gets progressively more bat poo poo from there. I believe you mean Goff and Fubby.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:09
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I just want an Uther Doul prequel novel dammit  Also Kraken is probably my favorite Mieville book, but I'm a huge sucker for urban fantasy. I just loved how the way magic worked was pretty much however the user thought it should work.
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Sep 5, 2014 17:24
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Ryoshi posted:Can you elaborate on this? I thought the ending really wrapped things up nicely and seemed really inline with the themes of the rest of the book, so I'm really curious about what you think it was lacking/what made it feel pointless. Sorry for the late reply. The book seems to be about Bellis and her actions on Armada. But at the end we see that it is instead about Silas Fennec and Uther Doul, manipulating her in secret, to achieve their own separate goals. The rug is pulled out from under the reader, and it feels like a lot of time was wasted on a story that was just invalidated. It is the same reason that I don't like Neil Gaiman's American Gods, when you end a story by declaring that everything that happened was false and pointless, why should I care? I still really like the book, I just think the ending sucks badly.
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Sep 5, 2014 18:29
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Oasx posted:Sorry for the late reply. The book seems to be about Bellis and her actions on Armada. But at the end we see that it is instead about Silas Fennec and Uther Doul, manipulating her in secret, to achieve their own separate goals. The rug is pulled out from under the reader, and it feels like a lot of time was wasted on a story that was just invalidated. It is the same reason that I don't like Neil Gaiman's American Gods, when you end a story by declaring that everything that happened was false and pointless, why should I care? Hoo boy. If that's how you choose to interpret that ending, don't ever read or watch No Country For Old Men.
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Sep 5, 2014 19:09
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I appreciated the continuing (despite everygodsdamnedthing that could squelch it occurring) hope Bellis has throughout it all of returning to New Crobuzon, and how it was sort of philosophically tied in with Uther Doul's own martial badassery through her Possible Letter. It's not like she didn't get something out of her experiences, despite her apparent lack of agency. Though for emotional engagement, I thought Tanner's fish-out-of-then-in-then-out-of water story was a lot more interesting and well-executed. I don't generally care about characters that way in genre fiction, but that really nailed the struggle to acclimate and connect to a place for which you aren't quite suited. Also, frickin' Shekel. :[
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Sep 6, 2014 00:27
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Hard Clumping posted:Hoo boy. If that's how you choose to interpret that ending, don't ever read or watch No Country For Old Men. I am exaggerating a little, and I fully realize that Mieville didn't intend for the ending to feel like it made the book pointless. It is just a thing that I personally dislike a lot, and made me dislike the book the first time I read it. These days I just ignore the ending, and have no problems reading the book.
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Sep 6, 2014 06:41
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Oasx posted:Sorry for the late reply. The book seems to be about Bellis and her actions on Armada. But at the end we see that it is instead about Silas Fennec and Uther Doul, manipulating her in secret, to achieve their own separate goals. The rug is pulled out from under the reader, and it feels like a lot of time was wasted on a story that was just invalidated. It is the same reason that I don't like Neil Gaiman's American Gods, when you end a story by declaring that everything that happened was false and pointless, why should I care? Huh. I understand where you're coming from, but it really seems like that was the overarching theme of the entire book. After all, Bellis gets passage on the ship initially by offering her services as a translator - perfectly content to be a tool of other people without interjecting with her own agency. The end (for me, at least) seemed to be the ultimate "well where exactly did you THINK that course through life would lead you" slap-in-the-face revelation. It just seemed so much better built up than PSS's ending was, and I think that's why I like it so much. Really, most of the main characters in The Scar had a hell of a growth arc, and I really liked the way it all came together.
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Sep 7, 2014 21:34
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I'm about 2/3 of the way through the Scar and enjoying it. Definitely has some of the same pacing problems Perdido Street does (and in my opinion its not the beginning few hundred pages but the middle bit where its dragging) but still enjoying it. A few thoughts: God drat how obviously evil Silas is, and how silly it is for Bellis to sorta kinda fall for him. It feels kind of sloppily out of character for her to delude herself in working with him, and its not like she's into his bad-boyishness, she's completely and totally blind to how unscrupulous the guy is. I mean yeah she's lonely, but drat. Mieville has cooled it a little bit on the interminable tracks of descriptions of neighborhoods and geography that's impossible to ever sort of grasp, but there's still long descriptions on the different factions making up Armada and I'm never going to totally grasp it or really much care about it. It's still a bit annoying. How come no one actually is worried that raising an Avanc will destroy the city? That's my first thought and the one thats still in the back of my head and I'm completely astonished no one is concerned the gigantic animal might just turn on the city and kill everyone, which makes it seem like a very obvious possibility. Enjoyed the trip to the mosquito island. I respect the audacity Mieville has to create a species who's males have literal anuses for mouths. Good poo poo. Uther Doul is cool
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Sep 11, 2014 23:31
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Mike N Eich posted:I'm about 2/3 of the way through the Scar and enjoying it. Definitely has some of the same pacing problems Perdido Street does (and in my opinion its not the beginning few hundred pages but the middle bit where its dragging) but still enjoying it. A few thoughts: Unspoiled because it's not really a spoiler but I really like these passing descriptions of different things that aren't really central to the plot in a lot of Mieville's books, it makes it feel like there's a whole world out there and we're really only looking at a small part of it.
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Sep 13, 2014 19:48
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regularizer posted:Unspoiled because it's not really a spoiler but I really like these passing descriptions of different things that aren't really central to the plot in a lot of Mieville's books, it makes it feel like there's a whole world out there and we're really only looking at a small part of it. Absolutely. The two that stick in my mind, for some reason are the Whim Trawlers from Scar...clearly some sort of boat, but that is all, name-dropped in a whole list of aquatic craft some slightly described, but all clearly familiar/not-worth-getting-into for the protagonist, and also the Blitzenbaums in Iron Council. Trees of frozen lightning, with a punnish name, but all it got was a sentence in the course of a description of a much larger scene, whereas somebody who had fewer ideas would feel like that was so clever and interesting that it needed a paragraph of adjectives.
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Sep 13, 2014 21:03
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Mike N Eich posted:descriptions of neighborhoods and geography that's impossible to ever sort of grasp 
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Sep 13, 2014 21:19
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I finished The Scar a couple of days ago and I think the ending was thematically fitting (i.e. transmission, translation, contingency etc). I enjoyed the book despite the sometimes heavy-handed use metaphors and tropes. Not sure if I'll read more of Mieville though.
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Sep 18, 2014 00:02
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Finally finished the Scar. I get why people find the ending disappointing. The dramatic climax really occurs with the Crobozun invasion and Brucolac/grindylow attack. The rest is more like falling action and the fallout from all of it. The hunt for the Scar never interested me, I guess since it was such a vague thing with vague powers and had such obvious dangers ( similar to the raising of the avanc) which I guess puts me in the same boat as the citizens of Armada but it just wasn't interesting to read about. The last 100 pages or so are a chore to get through for that reason. Uther Doul's actions and plans are needlessly complicated, bizarre and destructive and probably make no sense for whatever motivation you think he had. I mean I guess he could have been seized with a Hamlet-esque ambivalence, but if so why plan the whole long, painful stunt with Hedrigall? If he'd been undermining the Lovers from the beginning why not support Brucolac's mutiny when it occurred? I guess the point is that Uther, while being an unbeatable anime superhero fighter, is ultimately a coward and can't rule on his own or connect with people. That his motivations don't really make sense doesn't really hurt the book because it ends up giving us a lot of interesting events to play through the narrative. It's fitting it's an expression of (working- class) popular power that stops Armada. Maybe it's a really crude analogy for capitalism: a doomed trip costing lives, energy and creativity to enrich a few for a vague utopian goal, and it's gotta be stopped by all costs. Seems a little too neat though. Ah well. Tanner's story ends a little too hyperbolically tragic, poor dude deserved a place to belong.
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Sep 27, 2014 21:05
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Miéville and anticlimax kind of belong together. I'm fairly sure his only book that didn't disappoint me by its ending was The Kraken and that was probably because I figured out whodunit (and what) in advance so the feeling was replaced by smug self-satisfaction. Anyhow, I just finished Railsea - is it just me or it kinda... goes nowhere? I loved the whole turning the quarry into philosophy being a general rule but the story itself just reeks of wasted potential. Maybe it'll be better for a reread a few months down the line.
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Sep 28, 2014 19:25
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Railsea probably had one of the weaker endings of his books, but everything before that is good enough for me to ignore it.
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Sep 28, 2014 19:55
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Just finished Perdido Street Station. I liked it. The book managed to swing from literary critique to pulp action pretty seamlessly and I was relieved to actually read a pulp author from the Left for once. I won't be going back to him for at least a little while. There are certainly more vile books out there, and I actually enjoyed the purple prose descriptions of filth. That said, I coul make a drinking game out of "And now he's talking about waste and detritus." Take a shot every time he uses the word "effluvial." One thing I was wholly disappointed about in the climax, however was Lin being attacked by the Slake Moth at the end. I completely understand why Mieville chose to have events play out like this, but after building up Motley's influence and his inability to look away, it was a let down to see the moth just ignore him and take Lin instead. That said, he's an author I'll go back to eventually. And if I ever have a chance to play D&D with him I'd jump at it.
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Sep 30, 2014 16:19
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Another China Miéville project next year! He's illustrating an anthology of weird creatures titled The Bestiary — and possibly contributing a story to it as well http://outtherebooks.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/another-2015-china-mieville-project-the-bestiary/
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Oct 10, 2014 04:06
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