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Geisladisk posted:Marcone is annoying precisely because we're only ever told he's bad. Every time he shows up he never does anything except care about children and provide Harry with massive material support and goony backup. He's evil-by-exposition. Yeah, at first I thought this was kind of odd, but the more Marcone shows up in the stories, the more ridiculous it seems. "Oh, great, it's loving Marcone, showing up with his helicopter to help me save the day in what would otherwise be an unwinnable situation. What a loving cocksucker. HEY, MARCONE, I'M TAKING YOU DOWN SOMEDAY, YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE IT!" It really doesn't make sense, especially considering Harry's overall willingness to work with less than noble people without threatening to poo poo in their mouth. Edit: Nemo posted:And stealing the Shroud of Turin. It would be ridiculously out of character for Harry to hold that against him. Honestly, pretty much every time something new is revealed about Marcone, it proves that he's the kind of guy Harry should actually be fine with. I mean, considering he hasn't killed Thomas, despite ~chivalry~, I feel like Harry doesn't have a leg to stand on with Marcone. Especially after he saw what happened with the balance of power after the Red Court was eliminated. Every time Marcone's interests are brought up, Harry acknowledges that Marcone keeps it relatively civil in Chicago, and that his being there keeps a lot of worse things out. His venomous attitude toward him just seems so forced and out of character, in my opinion. Russad fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 26, 2014 |
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Aug 26, 2014 18:15
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Marcone is effectively Stringer Bell or Avon Barksdale from The Wire. They're gentler and more refined than some other counterparts but that's only because you never really see them cornered and you never saw how they built their empire in the first place.
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Aug 26, 2014 18:21
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I feel like Marcone is another thing that is intentional but still comes off poorly, like Dresden being a perv. He hates Marcone because Marcone is almost like this temptation, he does lovely things but he's not really THAT evil. But Harry is terrified of going off the deep end and being a bad guy, so he looks at and treats Marcone like he's a horrible monster. Also, Karrin hates him for similar reasons, plus they're natural enemies, and Harry's wanted to gently caress her basically forever so of course he would adopt her attitude towards people like Marcone.
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Aug 26, 2014 18:24
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Hawkgirl posted:I feel like Marcone is another thing that is intentional but still comes off poorly, like Dresden being a perv. He hates Marcone because Marcone is almost like this temptation, he does lovely things but he's not really THAT evil. But Harry is terrified of going off the deep end and being a bad guy, so he looks at and treats Marcone like he's a horrible monster. Also, Karrin hates him for similar reasons, plus they're natural enemies, and Harry's wanted to gently caress her basically forever so of course he would adopt her attitude towards people like Marcone. I don't really agree with your last point... I like marcone as a character and think that he and dresden will eventually fight it out.
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Aug 26, 2014 18:26
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I wonder how Marcone will feel if he ever becomes aware that Dresden has the *real* Shroud of Turin in his possession now.
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Aug 26, 2014 18:44
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I think we basically needed some sort of background-plot noise Marcone being awful and doing criminal things. Like Murphy being reluctant to work with him not because he's a filthy criminal but because of <Recent Horrible poo poo That Done Happened Because Of Him>.
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Aug 26, 2014 18:59
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Stroth posted:Isn't there a Marcone short story that opens with him murdering a couple of people to send a message? That's Evil Hand and , IIRC, the message he sent out was "Don't sell drugs to children" and then he lets their accountant go. That story was really jarring to me, too, because he was the same Marcone you'd expect from reading the main series books and yet he was constantly running an internal monologue of "One day, Dresden! One day!" while there's still no apparent reason why the two will ever clash. The thing about Marcone is that he comes off a lot like Stephen Brust's Vladimir Taltos. He's a crimelord, but he's not a bad guy! He sells drugs, but he doesn't push drugs on children. He runs brothels, but the employees are willing and he treats them well. You might have to pay him protection money, but it's reasonable and he's serious about the protection; anybody who robs your place will disappear and all the criminals know it. He kills people, but they're all underworld types so there's the whole 'live by the sword' vibe going on there. The difference is that it works for Vlad because Vlad is the hero of the stories and the worst you see people saying about him is "honorless Jhereg scum". You're supposed to think he's a good guy, so he doesn't do horrible things and people don't go around talking about how he's an evil monster. Marcone is written the same way, and yet every time you mention his name Harry's all "rabble rabble evil criminal monster rabble rabble". The dude's done nothing but huge favours for Harry, he's put himself at risk to help him out, and he's generally been a solid ally. It just doesn't fit together and that's why it's so jarring for me every time Harry starts going off about how evil Marcone is and how much he hates working with him.
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Aug 26, 2014 23:04
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Weren't Marcone's brothels previously all tied to the Red Court?
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Aug 26, 2014 23:06
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I really hope that one or both of them wake up and think, "Huh. He's not such a bad guy, now that I think about it."
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Aug 26, 2014 23:23
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The Evil Hat twitter just showed off the prototype cover for the 3rd RPG book, Paranet Papers:
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Aug 26, 2014 23:26
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Marcone also starte picking up the slack for Harry, defending the city from supernatural poo poo while harry was, y'know, dead.
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Aug 27, 2014 07:40
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I think a lot of the problems between Dresden and Marcone are territorial in nature. Both consider Chicago their town and that rivalry between them is a big contributor to their hostility.
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Aug 27, 2014 08:11
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I've always chalked Marcone to be a Marvel Kingpin character done right. Kingpin gloats and acts like a dick when there are plenty of ways for people to give him his comeuppance. Marcone is kinda particular about which weaknesses he leaves open to people (none). He doesn't gloat so much as quietly remind you he runs the city. He's responsible, both directly and indirectly for a ton of murder and illegal poo poo, poo poo that brings out the darker sides of people. Doesn't matter what cause he's doing it for, or even that he's not the biggest dick in the room. He's a bad guy running an entire city, and the only reason Harry never took care of him was due to more of the collateral damage that would come with taking him out. This too, I think, is something of a calculated move on Marcone's part. For Harry to kill Marcone, he'd have to be prepared to destroy Chicago and lose just about everyone he cares for in the process. Marcone knows Harry will never make that call. I don't think Marcone tries to "keep Harry happy," he's too proud for anything like that. I think of it more like staying out of his way. Out of sight, out of mind seems to be the best defense against Harry.
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Aug 27, 2014 10:06
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Shinjobi posted:I've always chalked Marcone to be a Marvel Kingpin character done right. Kingpin gloats and acts like a dick when there are plenty of ways for people to give him his comeuppance. Marcone is kinda particular about which weaknesses he leaves open to people (none). He doesn't gloat so much as quietly remind you he runs the city. He's responsible, both directly and indirectly for a ton of murder and illegal poo poo, poo poo that brings out the darker sides of people. Doesn't matter what cause he's doing it for, or even that he's not the biggest dick in the room. He's a bad guy running an entire city, and the only reason Harry never took care of him was due to more of the collateral damage that would come with taking him out. This too, I think, is something of a calculated move on Marcone's part. For Harry to kill Marcone, he'd have to be prepared to destroy Chicago and lose just about everyone he cares for in the process. Marcone knows Harry will never make that call. On that last point, it's pretty much explicitly claimed by Marcone that he tries to keep Harry happy, has him as a diamond VIP at any of his establishments and the like. He's realised that if you treat Harry well he doesn't tend to blow your poo poo up so often. It's better for business.
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Aug 27, 2014 10:11
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Marcone was also one of Butcher's City of Heroes characters. (He ran into repeated problems with CS changing his characters names because of the copyright violation policy, without checking that he was, in fact, actually Jim Butcher the copyright holder).
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Aug 27, 2014 13:14
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Masonity posted:He's realised that if you SpookyLizard posted:Marcone also starte picking up the slack for Harry, defending the city from supernatural poo poo while harry was, y'know, dead.
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Aug 27, 2014 13:56
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Raygereio posted:
That's kind of how feudalism works though. You pay me money (taxes) and I protect you (from other people who want you to pay taxes). He is the feudal liege lord of Chicago.
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Aug 27, 2014 14:26
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It's also not really all that different from how Harry himself operates. "Sorry, I can't help you find your friend Lily." "I will pay you triple your daily rate." "Oh, golly, yeah, I will definitely look for her!"
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Aug 27, 2014 14:41
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Russad posted:It's also not really all that different from how Harry himself operates. That's called Capitalism, if you don't like it go back to  And yeah, what Marcone is doing is exactly how he would have to act according to Feudalism, which is probably the basis for the Unseelie Accords.
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Aug 27, 2014 14:56
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Decius posted:That's called Capitalism, if you don't like it go back to The Unseelie Accords are the basis for feudalism I think you mean.
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Aug 27, 2014 15:41
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Wittgen posted:I totally agree about Marcone never being shown as evil being an annoyance. I kind of hope Marcone slips up at some point and shows his true nature in front of Harry so that Harry can smack him down hard. Marcone being completely unreasonable and dickish at the end of Skin Game gives me hope. I never have a problem with this because Harry is written as a real-ish person with biases and incomplete information. The books aren't intended to show you a 3rd party's perspective.
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Aug 27, 2014 16:08
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Also don't forget that Harry can't go a murderin' Marcone with magic because that is sort of still illegal, if the Wizards ever remember he isn't dead.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:24
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Rhymenoserous posted:The Unseelie Accords are the basis for feudalism I think you mean. I thought the accords were recentish.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:44
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Ika posted:I thought the accords were recentish. Updated in 1994! They existed before that though.
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Aug 27, 2014 18:47
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Masonity posted:On that last point, it's pretty much explicitly claimed by Marcone that he tries to keep Harry happy, has him as a diamond VIP at any of his establishments and the like. He's realised that if you treat Harry well he doesn't tend to blow your poo poo up so often. It's better for business. That's not keeping Harry happy. It irritates the hell out of Harry and Marcone knows it. That's just keeping maintenance costs down because now Harry doesn't have an excuse to blast his way in. Which also irritates Harry.
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Aug 27, 2014 21:17
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I think the Accords are supposed to be written a long, long time ago. Like, prehistory time ago. Newer parties and groups have been signing on and joining in recent years, with the most recent modification being in 1994, and the most recent signatory being Johnny Marcone as the Baron of Chicago.
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Aug 27, 2014 21:37
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Marcone owns because he purposely put weak doors in places where someone could make a dramatic entrance to his nightclub since he knew Harry would blow the loving door down to make a scene and he didn't want any collateral damage. The actual strategic entrances are reinforced to hell.
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Aug 28, 2014 00:21
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I'm in the middle of a series re-read and haven't got to it yet but, did the Knights of the Blackened Denarius sign the accords?
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Aug 28, 2014 00:56
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Azuth0667 posted:I'm in the middle of a series re-read and haven't got to it yet but, did the Knights of the Blackened Denarius sign the accords? I believe they have, which is why it was a big deal when they went after Marcone. And also why Mab wanted to gently caress them over so hard in Skin Game, because Mab doesn't like people breaking the Accords.
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Aug 28, 2014 01:01
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Azuth0667 posted:I'm in the middle of a series re-read and haven't got to it yet but, did the Knights of the Blackened Denarius sign the accords? Yes, they were a part of the accords but broke it.
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Aug 28, 2014 01:01
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Arcsech posted:I believe they have, which is why it was a big deal when they went after Marcone. And also why Mab wanted to gently caress them over so hard in Skin Game, because Mab doesn't like people breaking the Accords. I'm wondering if that's a first time event because of the happenings in Proven Guilty or if they are repeat offenders. Did we ever find out what happened in Arctis Tor in the aftermath of the hellfire attack on it? If I remember right Nic gets very upset when Harry mentions it in Small Favor but, I don't think its a solved mystery yet.
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Aug 28, 2014 01:07
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Azuth0667 posted:I'm wondering if that's a first time event because of the happenings in Proven Guilty or if they are repeat offenders. Did we ever find out what happened in Arctis Tor in the aftermath of the hellfire attack on it? If I remember right Nic gets very upset when Harry mentions it in Small Favor but, I don't think its a solved mystery yet. I like to think he got so pissed in Small Favor because he knew Mab would gently caress him up for it. Attacking the Archive? That's the Archive's problem, or her allies'. Attacking Arctis Tor is a whole different issue.
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Aug 28, 2014 01:18
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StoryBundle has a bunch of urban fantasy up now. Never heard of any of it except Twenty Palaces, look worthwhile to anyone?
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Aug 28, 2014 03:09
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The current humble book bundle is better. Would link it, but I'm phone posting.
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Aug 28, 2014 03:14
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Wade Wilson posted:The current humble book bundle is better. This Humble ebook Bundle? Yeah, I got that one already.
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Aug 28, 2014 03:33
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mirthdefect posted:StoryBundle has a bunch of urban fantasy up now. Never heard of any of it except Twenty Palaces, look worthwhile to anyone? Long Way Down was mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm just on the 2nd book now. If you have nothing else to read it's passable. I like the covers.
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Aug 28, 2014 05:00
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Marcone was also one of Butcher's City of Heroes characters. (He ran into repeated problems with CS changing his characters names because of the copyright violation policy, without checking that he was, in fact, actually Jim Butcher the copyright holder). This is amazing, is it just scuttlebutt or is there words on paper about this?
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Aug 28, 2014 09:49
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I'm going crazy. I'm hoping that I can tap into the collective Dresden Nerd Goon consciousness here to win a bet with my wife. I've had a look around the web but I've not been able to find the answer I'm looking for. It's regarding Ivy. It's not when they first met, but a few years later when she's a little older. Maybe early teens. For some reason, I have it in my head that in one of the books, there's this very brief scene where she's meeting Harry, or about to meet Harry and she gets all flustered about it and someone teases her about tidying up, or getting changed to seem less like a kid or something along those lines. Did that happen somewhere, or do I need therapy? Or is it some horrible fanfiction I might have come across and then tried to repress?
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Aug 28, 2014 11:48
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darth cookie posted:Did that happen somewhere, or do I need therapy? Or is it some horrible fanfiction I might have come across and then tried to repress? You dreamt it.
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Aug 28, 2014 11:53
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MeLKoR posted:You dreamt it. drat. Lost a bet. I think I must have confused it with another series... possibly Alex Verus.
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Aug 28, 2014 11:55
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