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whatever7 posted:So Hong Kong went Ferguson over a dead dog, WTF happened? More the company than the dog. They have done so much wasting public money, appearing to bow to tycoons and the Chinese government for payouts to them. This dog is the last straw after the pitiful attempt to rescue it.
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Aug 25, 2014 13:00
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Anti mainland protest in disguise?
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Aug 25, 2014 13:08
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Not really. The MTR has been going downhill since the handover, but it's their own damned fault for having screwed up priorities. Or maybe it's the Hong Kong government's fault for privatizing them in the first place. Or maybe it's the Hong Kong government's fault for privatizing them with this screwed up incentive system where they get free land in exchange for building more rail lines, turning them into more of a property developer than a transit corp.
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Aug 25, 2014 13:39
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Those bastards. The railway authority need to stop the operation for three days to mourn teh dead!
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Aug 25, 2014 14:05
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I'm kind of curious as to what Xi and the Chinese government will think/say about its biggest ally of convenience straight up invading a neighbor. Over internal issues no less. No doubt they won't say anything unless they have to but this goes against the foundational principal of Russian/Chinese cooperation.
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Aug 28, 2014 12:55
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I think China's policy is say anything Putin like to hear and egg him on to battle the West.
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Aug 28, 2014 13:51
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My limited understanding of history is that China was able to invade Tibet because everyone was war weary from WWII and didn't want to bother doing anything about it. If everyone is dicking around with Russia, China can grab some rocks in the South China sea or do other dumb poo poo without getting in trouble
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Aug 28, 2014 13:57
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm kind of curious as to what Xi and the Chinese government will think/say about its biggest ally of convenience straight up invading a neighbor. Over internal issues no less. No doubt they won't say anything unless they have to but this goes against the foundational principal of Russian/Chinese cooperation. Well the CCP is normally very strict about sticking to traditional ideological principles so I imagine they'll... Oh.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:17
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It's not like Beijing doesn't get some mileage out of ignoring their so-called principles of non-interference when it comes to Russia: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=11493 In order to come to Russia Dalai Lama must quit politics - Lavrov Seliger, Tver region, August 28, Interfax - The visit of the Dalai Lama to Russia requires that he fully give up politics, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said. "If it is a pastoral visit, the pastor should definitely withdraw from political activities. Unfortunately, we observe that this has not happened yet," Lavrov told participants in the Seliger-2014 youth forum. He said the Russian authorities "are actively interested in cooperating closely with key traditional religions of our country in our domestic life and foreign policy activities," he said. "In this case we have issues relating to the problem of Tibet and problems of the Dalai Lama's political involvement in these processes. And they cannot be disregarded," Lavrov said.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:35
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm kind of curious as to what Xi and the Chinese government will think/say about its biggest ally of convenience straight up invading a neighbor. Over internal issues no less. No doubt they won't say anything unless they have to but this goes against the foundational principal of Russian/Chinese cooperation.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:43
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It's almost as though China's stance on non-interference in internal affairs isn't entirely consistent
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Aug 28, 2014 15:49
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Fall Sick and Die posted:It's almost as though China's stance on non-interference in internal affairs isn't entirely consistent Or even a little bit consistent.
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Aug 28, 2014 16:00
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:Or even a little bit consistent. I remember when the Chinese ambassador the UK publicly criticised of the UK's policy directions just before Li Keqiang's visit. I really enjoyed pointing out to my cadre class how he was interfering with UK internal affairs and hurting the feelings of the British people.
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Aug 28, 2014 16:06
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lol, how did the class react?
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Aug 28, 2014 16:17
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Daduzi posted:I remember when the Chinese ambassador the UK publicly criticised of the UK's policy directions just before Li Keqiang's visit. I really enjoyed pointing out to my cadre class how he was interfering with UK internal affairs and hurting the feelings of the British people. Aha, that must have gone over well.
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Aug 28, 2014 16:18
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Fall Sick and Die posted:It's almost as though China's stance on non-interference in internal affairs isn't entirely consistent On the Ukraine issue? How do you figure? China didn't recognized the two "countries" Russia annexed out of Georgia.
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Aug 28, 2014 17:19
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Jesus where to start. Going back a bit, during my time in China I'd had multiple people tell me how awful it was for the USA to support the Guomindang against the wishes of the Chinese people and interfere in China's internal affairs, but what about the Soviet support for the Commmunists? Apparently it only counts as interference in internal affairs when you support the losing side, whereas of course the Soviets were right to support Mao! http://www.eigroupusa.com/events/2426Chinicizes - China criticizing Soviet Union for NOT preparing for war with the west http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19841227-1.2.13.9.aspx - China criticizing the Soviet bloc's economic policies http://www.itv.com/news/update/2014-04-28/china-criticises-disturbing-us-pact-with-philippines/ - China criticizing Philippines and USA making a bilateral agreement (You can claim this is not technically internal affairs but China is stridently opposed to anyone else interfering with their own attempts to impose bilateral agreements relating to territorial disputes) http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-criticises-abbott-asylum-seeker-policy-20140220-hvd73.html - China criticizing Australia's human rights policy regarding asylum seekers http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-02/china-slams-japan-military-shift/5565630 - China criticizing Japan's reappraisal of their constitution (Apparently Japan has no internal affairs in China's opinion because they criticize everything that Japan does and claims it's all related to 19th and 20th century warmongering, yet what's more internal than a state's democratically elected government reappraising their own constitution? If you're really afraid Japan is going to attack, I doubt a constitution would stop those bloodthirsty devils...) http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/China_responds_to_US_plan_for_import_quotas (China constantly complaining about the need for other countries to lower barriers to Chinese goods while at the same time they raise tons of barriers to other nations, especially relating to the internet and media) http://thediplomat.com/2014/03/china-backs-russia-on-ukraine/ "Further, the Xinhua commentary had no criticism for Russia’s decision to send troops to Crimea. “It is quite understandable when Putin said his country retained the right to protect its interests and Russian-speakers living in Ukraine,” the commentary said. Rather than opposing the move, the West should “respect Russia’s unique role in mapping out the future of Ukraine.”" - And slowly support gathers for a return to Qing era policy where Chinese people anywhere were still considered part of the Empire, the blood quanta determining who is and is not a son of the Yellow Emperor. If China is supporting Russia's 'special role' to protect the interests of people who share Russian culture in the states bordering Russia, what does that say about China's special role to protect the interests of Chinese people in every country with a significant Chinese population? It hasn't happened yet, but I imagine that if Indonesia had gone through the anti-Chinese riots of the 90s today there would be more than just talk.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7503428.stm - China supporting Sudan's government against rebels http://www.voanews.com/content/chinese-support-for-wa-rebels-designed-to-counter-burma/1590718.html - Supporting rebels in Burma now that Burma's govt is moving away from China China criticizes anyone it feels like when it's in their favor, they will continue to do so more and more, because the government doesn't actually care about being hypocritical, it's all for domestic consumption. The only reason they care about non-interference is because they don't want anyone else interfering in their own affairs as a sovereign state. Unfortunately we're not going to be able to push the rest of the world back to the Treaty of Westphalia where a sovereign has absolute rights over his people within his borders, interference within other nations domestic affairs is a hallmark of international politics today, it's the very raison d'etre of UN agencies like the Human Rights Council or all the conventions on what states today can or can't do, which again obviously almost every state in the world ignores. I'm not saying China is alone in this, but from their attitude it's like they think they're the Federation following the Prime Directive, shaking their head at we poor fools who can't see that nations must develop on their own free from interference. Fall Sick and Die fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 18:13
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Wait, you have a problem with Beijing's foreign policy not consistent with 30 years ago? 50 years ago? Ok never mind I asked.
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Aug 28, 2014 18:40
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Only a few of those examples are from 50 years ago. Most of them are from the past few years and one's directly relating to Ukraine, which you asked for. My point was just that there's a strong disconnect between most Chinese people's ideas of how China has behaved in the past and is behaving now, and how they actually behaved and are behaving.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:04
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Fall Sick and Die posted:Only a few of those examples are from 50 years ago. Most of them are from the past few years and one's directly relating to Ukraine, which you asked for. My point was just that there's a strong disconnect between most Chinese people's ideas of how China has behaved in the past and is behaving now, and how they actually behaved and are behaving. b.. but America!! 
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Aug 28, 2014 19:12
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:b.. but America!! Look, Democracies are granted the privilege to be hypocritical every 4 years. That's one of the reasons why we have elections, and why the world puts up with sudden changes in policy eminating from democratic conscensus. At least, if you're a large enough power, you have some leverage to sway elections in democracies. What I find infuriating about Chinese policy is that it doesn't even put up a pretense of consistency. If it was more subtle and less blatent, nobody would be inconvenienced by it.
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Aug 28, 2014 21:19
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Hi !
Chickenwalker fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2014 21:25
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Fall Sick and Die posted:Only a few of those examples are from 50 years ago. Most of them are from the past few years and one's directly relating to Ukraine, which you asked for. My point was just that there's a strong disconnect between most Chinese people's ideas of how China has behaved in the past and is behaving now, and how they actually behaved and are behaving. Up until ~30 years ago China was literally a feudal peasant society. It's unreasonable to expect the Chinese people to be a bastion of liberal democratic ideology when a significant chunk of them still aren't even literate. If things are the same in 30 years then feel free to complain, but I am pretty bemused by people who complain about this. What were you expecting exactly?
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Aug 28, 2014 21:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:Look, Democracies are granted the privilege to be hypocritical every 4 years. That's one of the reasons why we have elections, and why the world puts up with sudden changes in policy eminating from democratic conscensus. At least, if you're a large enough power, you have some leverage to sway elections in democracies. I was trying to preemptively cut off the tu quoque argument we frequently hear after talking about China in this, the China thread.
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Aug 28, 2014 21:39
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icantfindaname posted:Up until ~30 years ago China was literally a feudal peasant society. It's unreasonable to expect the Chinese people to be a bastion of liberal democratic ideology when a significant chunk of them still aren't even literate. If things are the same in 30 years then feel free to complain, but I am pretty bemused by people who complain about this. What were you expecting exactly? According to the CIA World Factbook for China Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 95.1% male: 97.5% female: 92.7% (2010 est.) This seems really suspect given the hundreds of millions of people still living at subsistence levels.
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Aug 28, 2014 21:43
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pentyne posted:According to the CIA World Factbook for China The PRC (and actually GMD before them) made it a really big deal to send your kids off to school. e: That being said, the official standard for literacy (1500-2000 characters) and the practical one (3000 characters) differed. computer parts fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 21:57
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Also living at subsistence level does not preclude literacy.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:21
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pentyne posted:According to the CIA World Factbook for China Most countries which understand the value of education as a tool to create legitimacy are heavily invested in ensuring literacy. Like, education is indoctrination, full stop. There's a lot of negative connotations of the idea of 'shaping people's perceptions', but that's what education does, and that's why making sure you have a literate populace is valuable-it means it is significantly easier, and cheaper, to have the populace exposed to a consistent worldview. There are many things suspect about China, but its literacy rate is almost certainly not one of them. Fall Sick and Die posted:Only a few of those examples are from 50 years ago. Most of them are from the past few years and one's directly relating to Ukraine, which you asked for. My point was just that there's a strong disconnect between most Chinese people's ideas of how China has behaved in the past and is behaving now, and how they actually behaved and are behaving. It's at a point where it can legitimately flex its might and is also opposed in many ways to the global hegemon by the very nature of the United States not wanting to be thrown out of the #1 spot, or even have a close runner-up to #2. Its political stance is going to evolve significantly due to that (as well as the results of the new generation of leaders being people who have started to grow up in the period of time where China was rapidly growing and improving, leading to certain colored perceptions), and the last decade or so has undeniably been a time of drastic, drastic change for China.
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Aug 29, 2014 05:40
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icantfindaname posted:Up until ~30 years ago China was literally a feudal peasant society. It's unreasonable to expect the Chinese people to be a bastion of liberal democratic ideology when a significant chunk of them still aren't even literate. If things are the same in 30 years then feel free to complain, but I am pretty bemused by people who complain about this. What were you expecting exactly? Sorry I'm unaware of there being a correlation between being hypocritical and being literate? Do people need to write down the things they say before they know what they said? I thought it was much more a matter of the doublethink imposed on them by several lifetimes of often-conflicting nationalist propaganda and the simultaneous destruction, perversion and exploitation of history. I never actually held up the Chinese as failing to uphold 'liberal democratic ideology' but rather criticized the government for holding a really obvious double standard where they pretend that they don't interfere in the affairs of other nations (hardly a hallmark of liberal democracy hmm?) giving them status as shrill victim of nebulous international conspiracies to keep the Chinese people down and split up their nation.
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Aug 29, 2014 05:43
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systran posted:lol, how did the class react? Electro-Boogie Jack posted:Aha, that must have gone over well. It was fine, I've been teaching them for 4 years now and they know what I'm like. They just agreed and said the guy was an idiot(though not on so many words) and probably in deep trouble with Beijing. Not sure if they were just placating me, but it's pretty consistent with what they've said before.
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Aug 29, 2014 13:52
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So...is democracy in HK finally dead? http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/31/beijing-democratic-hong-kong-china/14899665/ quote:BEIJING – China's top legislative body approved a tightly controlled framework for the 2017 election of Hong Kong's leader Sunday, possibly paving the way for civil unrest that has plagued the country under Chinese rule.
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Aug 31, 2014 19:11
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It's disappointing but pretty much what was expected. I wouldn't say it's dead yet, I'd say the fight is only just beginning. Look at this boot licking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKAiKr-9Ut4 Benny Tai's "Era of Civil Disobedience" fell into action immediately. Prompting pants making GBS threads in the form of begging people to please understand that this is a HUGE STEP FORWARD YOU CAN ALL VOTE and PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKAiKr-9Ut4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40eN9Uab4C0 SCMP's live blog of the protests
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Aug 31, 2014 19:32
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You're choosing one name from a list of people. You get to put the paper in the box! That's what democracy is! This place is really actually hosed. Planning my next moves... edit: they keep talking about how the safety of workers and kids going to work in Central. It's literally insane. Like people are going to beat up people going to work. hong kong divorce lunch fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Sep 1, 2014 |
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Sep 1, 2014 04:04
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I wish I was in HK so I could join the sit in. I will have to settle for watching on from here. 
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Sep 1, 2014 04:49
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Don't worry 30 years later HK will be merged with Shenzhen and the HKD will be converted to RMB. You still get to vote in your favorite mayor but the Party Secretary will be assigned by Beijing. 
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Sep 1, 2014 05:31
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A lot of police officers on my way to the office today. We have police buses, and uniformed officers standing at entrances of any Chinese political building. No traffic cops though. There aren't any protesters yet so it was law enforcement messing up my commute.
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Sep 1, 2014 05:31
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There were no problems in the New Territories as nobody gives a poo poo here.
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Sep 1, 2014 05:44
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Nothing unusual here either, except I saw two buses collide and cause a minor traffic jam.
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Sep 1, 2014 05:50
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Well, Macau just re-elected their chief executive, Fernando Chiu again. It wasn't much a competition though. Only 1 possible candidate. Macau is an even bigger joke than Hong Kong. http://qz.com/258189/what-macaus-election-says-about-the-future-of-hong-kong/ posted:
Bold is mine. I'm going to the protest areas tonight. I can hear faint chants already. Honestly, Occupy Central has a pretty lovely online media campaign, no twitter or fb status and not much updates. Scholarism isn't showing much too. Wish there was occupy central live update somewhere.
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Sep 1, 2014 11:55
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caberham posted:Honestly, Occupy Central has a pretty lovely online media campaign, no twitter or fb status and not much updates. Sounds to me someone has just found a side project.
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Sep 1, 2014 15:18
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