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If that Patriot is going to actually be like that, then I'm going to ask for a loving refund because that's ridiculous. It'd be essentially "from here on out, every REDFOR deck can fill all the tabs with the points you save by not taking any useless planes".
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Aug 28, 2014 08:45
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Dandywalken posted:Yeah I understand where you're coming from as well. The extreme reactions from folks just put me off What, incidentally, would the other equivalents be? Would this top-end SAM ability be limited to US/USSR, or would other nations get... repainted Patriots and S-300s, I guess? The given stats for the Patriot are, of course, ridiculous, but even after they get trimmed down... I don't think that was the capability the US needed in the first place.
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Aug 28, 2014 08:48
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Chantilly Say posted:What, incidentally, would the other equivalents be? Would this top-end SAM ability be limited to US/USSR, or would other nations get... repainted Patriots and S-300s, I guess? In theory, S-300 I imagine. I dont think the Chinese equivalent is within timeframe though, but Soviet one ofc is. And yeah, the only real AA US "needed", and of course I use that term hesitantly, is something like the Bradley ADATS. That'd pretty much seal the deal for them, and it'd be a finished chapter totally. The Patriot's inclusion will have repercussions in some form or another, while the ADATS could have avoided that.
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Aug 28, 2014 08:54
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Xerxes17 posted:
What a loving useless addition that fills none of the obvious gaping holes in that army list.
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Aug 28, 2014 08:56
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Chantilly Say posted:What, incidentally, would the other equivalents be? All (or at least most) radar SAM systems. I am firmly of the opinion that it can't be made to work without changing the core air game rules, and that's not happening. So, I present to you: the progression of Patriot! 1) launches 2) massive pact whine 3) also OP despite best intents 4) nerfed to the loving ground 5) no one picks it 6) nerfed so hard it emerges in china 7) forgotten forever
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Aug 28, 2014 09:04
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Hob_Gadling posted:All (or at least most) radar SAM systems. I am firmly of the opinion that it can't be made to work without changing the core air game rules, and that's not happening. So, I present to you: the progression of Patriot! Yeah, that honestly sounds about right. Like--okay, they won't leave it be in the quoted state. But there are two states I can see them leaving it in: it's either some kind of parallel, complementary system to the Hawk, like the current Buk/Tor dynamic, or they just nerf it so hard it becomes a worthless newbie trap, because once a unit is added it can't be removed.
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Aug 28, 2014 09:14
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I'm not *totally* worried about the Patriot quite yet. We don't know its final stats yet, and, for all we know, it could be some slow firing, supply sucking monstrosity that gets vaped by reactive mortar/arty fire in every tryhard game. Also, it apparently won't be able to target helicopters. Probably going to make a lot of pubbies cry, though. Oh, and what I've heard about the Scandinavian DLC is pretty encouraging. My understanding is that the Swedes are going to be getting a proper, no poo poo heavy tank after all!
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Aug 28, 2014 10:00
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That's the problem with these superunits, either they're too powerful and they get nerfed and then they're just an I-Hawk PiP III again. So why not introduce more direct fire Pram support guns and top-attack ATGMs and poo poo?
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Aug 28, 2014 10:36
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Why.  They've had the entirely correct policy of not having long range strategic SAMs in the game. For most out of scale units (like most planes) they at least have a more or less consistent design philosophy for. This is like giving the Tu-95 to the USSR. Hilariously out of scale and utterly inconsistent. It might be a cool idea if long range SAMs and SEAD planes were like map-level assets in the vein of interceptors, but even then it'd make much more sense to reshuffle Buks and Hawks for that purpose. And that sort of design shift isn't going to happen outside of a new game anyway. This is just a really silly and gamey thing that doesn't even make gameplay sense. RangerPL posted:Problem with the S-300 is that it's a TEL, which requires setup time prior to launch, so my cynical mind imagines that they'll just invoke the Engine Limitations card to avoid adding it. Elukka fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 10:43
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Looking forward to the whining in the German community because clearly the Bundeswehr should also get Patriots, it's realistic.
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Aug 28, 2014 10:58
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Remember, Marines can't get a fast transport because the devs decided they should be a 15-man squad (lol VDV btr) but the US can totally stick a Patriot battery on the back of a truck. Yep.
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Aug 28, 2014 11:00
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To be fair, the Patriot stats are part of a proposed rework of long-range SAM, presumably including the BuK etc. The idea is that they get extra long range bit can't target helicopters. The leaks left that part out.
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Aug 28, 2014 12:27
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Also, on the S-300 note, the truck mounted S-300P which was the "defend Moscow" variant are TELs only, but the tracked S-300V, which was designed as top-tier army defense (the top layer), is a TELAR. Regardless a TELAR was still reliant on all the other radars, but it's better then the posted patriot because it at least has a radar. It came with 2 different missiles, the big 2 tube one was more for shooting at TBMs. EDIT: I wasn't sure I really believed you Gug, 6900 was just way too high. Guess we'll wait and see how the changes flesh out. Mazz fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 13:21
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It could also help if the Patriot absolutely guzzled supplies, ATACMS style.
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Aug 28, 2014 13:41
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IMO, for the Patriot they should go with: $135, 4900 range, 65% ACC, 2x 0/2/0/1/0 availability, missile speed equivalent to HAWK It would be low avail enough and expensive enough to not displace the HAWK and not be spammed to create an invincible AA net, provide unique AA power without being completely nuts, be within SEAD range, and be a valuable asset that losing even one would hurt.
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Aug 28, 2014 14:37
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Mazz posted:Also, on the S-300 note, the truck mounted S-300P which was the "defend Moscow" variant are TELs only, but the tracked S-300V, which was designed as top-tier army defense (the top layer), is a TELAR. Regardless a TELAR was still reliant on all the other radars, but it's better then the posted patriot because it at least has a radar What I meant is the S-300 has to be erected into a vertical position before it can be launched. Something Eugen might be too lazy to model and would opt to not do at all (see the 2S4 Tyulpan mortar). The Patriot is a more conventional "turret" launcher.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:06
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Yeah, they are pretty lazy with animations. I'm almost positive that was the real issue with TOW or HJ-8 teams, they couldn't have a dude shoulder launching a tube bigger then him. Also, the PATRIOT needs to be really overpowered so we can go on those forums and make ridiculous posts defending it as a true American asset.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:10
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Hi this has probably been asked before but I had a lot of fun playing airland battles and decided to check out Red Dragon. Tried the British campaign and got totally slaughtered by the Chinese so went to check out the Korean campaign. Although some missions seem quite easy others can easily end badly leaving your forces forced to retreat and thus overwhelmed by North Korean forces in successive games. Apart from this using the same style of play as in Airland battle does not seem to work in this game. Flying into a city and trying to resist the waves on hostile troops just seems hard and frustrating. Are there any kind of tactics which differ in this game than in airland battles? Like are troops really a lot less powerful in this game for some reason? Any general tips are welcome.
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Aug 28, 2014 15:10
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Buildings are no longer impenetrable doom-fortresses, for one. They don't reduce incoming damage anywhere as much as they did in ALB. That's probably the biggest thing you should know about cities.
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Aug 28, 2014 16:23
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I've just had some frustration going from the China campaign to the British one actually. In the Chinese game, Soviet heavy tanks seemed like they could kill approximately infinity of the cheap Chinese tanks. In the British campaign however, the waves of Chinese tanks appear to never die or run out and my British heavy tanks explode whenever anything so much as looks at them funny.
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Aug 28, 2014 17:13
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Lemony posted:I've just had some frustration going from the China campaign to the British one actually. In the Chinese game, Soviet heavy tanks seemed like they could kill approximately infinity of the cheap Chinese tanks. In the British campaign however, the waves of Chinese tanks appear to never die or run out and my British heavy tanks explode whenever anything so much as looks at them funny. The campaigns are okay but the way they AI works makes them kind of gimmicky. For instance you can play through 3/4s or all of the "very hard" campaign with zero losses because of the deck construction flaws. The key though is you have to know unit names and such pretty drat well. The key to beating the AI is more about those gameplay gimmicks then anything else. Hiding infantry in the interior of a town until their tanks drive through, exploiting the lack of AA with all your helos, etc. You'll rarely beat the AI in stand up fights simply because they spawn too much poo poo. You have to play on the LoS rules and the ability to critical think through the hordes. An example: the AI will generally group spawn bombers on the first ground target they see. You can create AA traps really easily by selectively revealing something. Pay attention to how they clump spawn unit types, and look up the units in their battlegroups. Then figure out how to hard counter specific things. That being said, this game is really, really built for MP. The AI barely scratches the surface. Don't be afraid to get on mumble and play with goons.
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Aug 28, 2014 18:08
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So the Soviet will get a new 10-man elite recon with RPG and sniper. I've never really used snipers, how good are they? I thought a problem was that they'd get spotted as soon as they'd fire, thus getting the sniper unit in trouble. Is it effective once you're engaged in a firefight?
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Aug 28, 2014 18:53
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Honestly they're pretty effective, groups of them actually remove infantry in buildings very quickly. The problem is they're usually 2 man teams, which are vaporized instantly by any tank shell fired at them. A 10 man team will probably be pretty useful in certain maps.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:21
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The Canadian Recce ones are pretty good at slowly plinking at supply trucks, unguarded AA, Artillery, etc... If you can get them in a good position. That 1AP is pretty handy.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:45
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Xerxes17 posted:Confirmed: Im not sure whats funnier, this or when Norway got a 15 man reserve squad with bolt action rifles as a new unit.
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Aug 28, 2014 19:59
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The Spets '90 with the AsVal, RPG-26 and SVD should be interesting. The snipers do about the same DPS as a CQC Minimi, at max range. So that's nothing to sneeze at. It's also less than you'd think though. Lower DPS than RPO spets, but it's more reliable. Also the RPG 26 will give them moderate anti-vehicle abilities. They'll be a useful unit but just so unnecessary for the USSR line up.
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Aug 28, 2014 20:01
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Agean90 posted:Im not sure whats funnier, this or when Norway got a 15 man reserve squad with bolt action rifles as a new unit. That's just for the Campaign DLC right, not the Scandinavian DLC? because that would be atrocious.
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Aug 28, 2014 20:03
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MonkeyLibFront posted:That's just for the Campaign DLC right, not the Scandinavian DLC? because that would be atrocious. Nah, in ALB they had a similar patch where every country got a new unit. Canada got the Chimera, Denmark got a new tank, other nations got things like useful planes or a new SPAAG. Norway got a reserve infantry unit with turn of the (20th) century bolt action rifles :v
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Aug 28, 2014 20:10
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Shanakin posted:The Spets '90 with the AsVal, RPG-26 and SVD should be interesting. The snipers do about the same DPS as a CQC Minimi, at max range. So that's nothing to sneeze at. It's also less than you'd think though. Lower DPS than RPO spets, but it's more reliable. Also the RPG 26 will give them moderate anti-vehicle abilities. They'll be a useful unit but just so unnecessary for the USSR line up. Actually having had time to think about them I rather like them now, CV hunting/all purpose 10man special forces are really what my USSR could use, more so than another bomber or a tactical missile launcher that would cause atacms/patriot level tears and add to the artillery problem.
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Aug 28, 2014 20:13
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I thought reservists were actually surprisingly useful with the way infantry weapons were balanced. Did they change that?
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Aug 28, 2014 20:13
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IIRC someone had calculated that most damage in an infantry squad was dealt by the MG, and the reserve units have either lost their MGs since or maybe most of them never had one? Also, non-Scandinavian militias were patched to only have 10-man squads in the recent big patch.
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Aug 28, 2014 20:17
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Well, they mostly went from 15 to 10-man teams, so they lost significant usefulness as cheap fodder. Haven't used them since that patch, so can't attest to how good or bad they are now
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Aug 28, 2014 20:17
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Davin Valkri posted:I thought reservists were actually surprisingly useful with the way infantry weapons were balanced. Did they change that? It's been a weird road. In ALB they got real big after Conquest became a thing because they were 6 points in a truck and you got a ton of them. I think this was before they put the weapon ROF steps in so the only real differences between infantry was accuracy and morale. Hence 80 of these guys dealt with most opposing infantry well enough, especially the Danish guys with a full blown MG3. They got nerfed pretty hard when they put the ROF levels in and when they nationalized reservists. Still were a decent filler unit though, just no longer a primary infantry type. The Norway ones came after this, hence being real poo poo. RD came out and they basically threw all the late ALB changes out the window; it was built from an earlier version of ALB so FLX's changes didn't carry over completely. They were all 15 man squads now in a world where artillery and bombs killed loving everything immediately. Since the weapon changes weren't really established, you had NK reservist SMGs that were better CQC infantry then most line guys, and you had a ton of them at 5+5 with transports. They nerfed them all down to 10 men more recently, and most of the transports got nerfed too. So they are back to being mostly poo poo. Mazz fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 20:24
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They also nerfed the DPS on their main funs even further. Scandinavian ones are still 15men with machineguns from memory, but they're also still 10pts so you might as well just get line infantry.
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Aug 28, 2014 20:35
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Shanakin posted:They also nerfed the DPS on their main funs even further. Scandinavian ones are still 15men with machineguns from memory, but they're also still 10pts so you might as well just get line infantry. Swedish infantry is really not in a good place. They were a top-tier nation in ALB, but have lost access to a lot of good options, and the Scandinavian DLC that promises to re-balance them keeps being pushed back. Dave47 fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 20:59
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Ah yeah I forgot Pansarskyttes are 15pts. Getting mixed up with uralmod pricing. Gavaermen do the job fine though.
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Aug 28, 2014 21:24
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One thing I've never seen answered: why does the Spetz RPO have twice the suppression of any other napalm rockets? In practice it kind of evens out in combat because they have the RPK, but if that gets buffed in an MG rebalance and they keep their ability to stunlock enemy infantry they are going to get ridiculous.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:08
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Shanakin posted:The Spets '90 with the AsVal, RPG-26 and SVD should be interesting. The snipers do about the same DPS as a CQC Minimi, at max range. So that's nothing to sneeze at. It's also less than you'd think though. Lower DPS than RPO spets, but it's more reliable. Also the RPG 26 will give them moderate anti-vehicle abilities. They'll be a useful unit but just so unnecessary for the USSR line up. Honestly, depending on how they're priced I might like them a lot because they're finally a vaguely generalist infantry squad for USSR that doesn't have some serious gap.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:26
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Mazz posted:The campaigns are okay but the way they AI works makes them kind of gimmicky. For instance you can play through 3/4s or all of the "very hard" campaign with zero losses because of the deck construction flaws. The key though is you have to know unit names and such pretty drat well. I'll try this  . ALB was a lot of fun but Red dragon has been pure frustration even in multiplayer for me. A lot of tactics which were effective in ALB just totally suck in red dragon multiplayer too. There were tutorials on how to exploit certain things like sneak a gang or spetznasts or other special forces to the enemy spawn point and then blap trucks before they get time to unload was one nice tactic which just doesn't seem to work in Red dragon. Maybe its just not knowing the deck capabilities and how to exploit them which is the problem. Also a lot of people seem to be using premade decks in Red dragon as in one person will use a pure air deck while another pure ground forces and just pretty much rape the enemy team with them. One game pretty much went like this, 3v3: I sent ground forces to cap a town, other guys on my team do the same. A about 10 choppers fly towards the same town capping zones as they go, my command truck gets destroyed before we reach the town, my troops are napalmed to oblivion. Enemy team has 5 capture points while we have 1, rage quit lol
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Aug 28, 2014 22:38
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Dandywalken posted:I'm almost sure its an Act of Aggression model, honestly. Its just way too loving random to be added on its own merits. Well if that's reason enough I want an Akula (Railgun Stealth Drone Tank). Or Invisible-Giant-Ospreys-that-carry-Tanks.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:00
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