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How is an oval not round, looks pretty curvy to me.
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Aug 26, 2014 02:40
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Holy poo poo. I just saw this thread and reading the OP sent memories back from "high school" and you made me realize why all my friends kept saying the school was so bad when I didn't understand. For reference, I went from 2004-2008 which was 6th grade to 12th grade for me. I ended up building that favortism that you mentioned and I know they let me get away with so much poo poo. Like I could score whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. loving crazy right? I could go to the bathroom, was treated with respect while other people were constantly treated like children at 17 years old and we were told almost daily how evil and wrong evolution was. The school was nowhere near as bad as yours was though prester, there was no corporal punishment, the supervisors usually didn't care that much if you got a mom instead of a zealot. It was also easy to keep a E level, at least it was for me. I think I filled the requirements once and kept it for my entire time there. The school just didn't seem to give two shits about things like record keeping, of course I don't know if that was the favoritism I received since I made friends with several of the moms who let me straight up cheat my way through geometry and Spanish I and II. I also remember using their computer program (which was called School of tomorrow, but I think it was called something different then the paper curriculum). Letting me use the computer let me get away with things like googling answers when I got tired (and surprisingly getting much different answers than what the curriculum said!!) and just straight up playing games or reading the news when I got frustrated with doing school work. I do remember the cameras that watched everyone though. They had a camera set up in every room to monitor all the students at all time so that if we acted out of line the Pastor could come and punish us himself. Favoritism was rampant to where students were run off if they showed off too much sin and we were encouraged to not talk to them...we did it anyway because we were loving teenagers who hated them. Granted I was a goody-two shoes. I rarely stood up to them, but I hated them in my head and had no problem talking to anyone I just tried to make sure I wasn't seen siding with them so that the supervisors didn't make hell for me like they did for them. Most people who transferred in mid semester didn't last the rest of the semester and the only people that seemed to stay were either people who came in at the kindergarten level or were like me and whose parents felt that public school was that much worse (and to be fair, the public school where I would've been sent to was considered horrible thanks to the rural area we were located and the incredibly low amount of funding given to them.) My mom hated the school but public school was considered worse. I didn't like the school, but as someone who enjoyed learning, I didn't hate it but I have a feeling it was more due to the privileges I was given. As I said earlier, my friends had always complained how bad it was but I didn't really understand. But reading your story on what happened makes me worry about what happened to them that I never experienced. I'm glad you made this thread Prester John. I hope all goes well with you on escaping that. And thanks for creating a thread that kinda lets me vent on that lovely "school" that felt more like a warehouse.
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Aug 26, 2014 03:25
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I had always wondered what things were like when you were one of the favorited kids. Thank you Dr. Karma, that was insightful. My school didn't have camera's though, was it really that 1984ish? It sounds like the Pastor sat in his office watching the camera feeds while twisting his mustache.
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Aug 26, 2014 03:38
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Prester John posted:I had always wondered what things were like when you were one of the favorited kids. Thank you Dr. Karma, that was insightful. I kinda stumbled into the favoritism. I had made friends with a kid whose mom had the principal's ear (who herself was the wife of the pastor). I was also the only catholic the school had and was considered more of a prize. I remember the principal and the supervisors spent their time trying to convert me to Baptism. I led them on so as to make sure they continued their positive treatment of me. I used my privlege to cheat, graduate early, and to help the k-5th graders who I knew were likely being bullshitted (especially the 3rd-5th graders who had a zealot as a supervisor). I scored the kids stuff for them and gave them leniency and tried to help them to the best of my ability. I know that I was pretty well liked by the kids but didn't understand why. There was one camera in each room , 3 in the hallway and two in the high school room. If we ever had to go into the pastor's room he had them set up on a tv and displayed constantly, comparable to a security room. He rarely stepped in though, he usually sent his wife to do his dirty work which usually made us actually afraid if he were to ever show up. Anytime he showed up he was always accompiend by somebody saying "Brother [name redacted] is here!" and the whole room would go quiet as we all stared at him in fear. He never actually did anything (at least from my view) but he still instilled such fear for a man that we saw only once a week (Wednesday chapel sessions of course!).
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Aug 26, 2014 04:07
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Something about combining surveillance cameras and dominionism is just giving me the warm fuzzies all over.
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Aug 26, 2014 04:15
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It's okay if you're doing it for God!
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Aug 26, 2014 05:53
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SedanChair posted:Something about combining surveillance cameras and dominionism is just giving me the warm fuzzies all over. So that's what that feeling is.
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Aug 26, 2014 07:23
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Kazak_Hstan posted:Does that necessarily mean a circle? An oval is round all about. Yes but then the distance from brim to brim would not be a constant ten cubits.
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Aug 26, 2014 14:50
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Why are they using both though, in that text. It looks like the long-S is standard, except when it's in the final position of the word?
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Aug 26, 2014 16:05
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VideoTapir posted:China's about as communist as Ayn Rand these days. Based on the rhetoric of the ACE materials, should have clarified. With the material still assuming Russia is Soviet Communist, you should give me the benefit of the doubt. The curriculum still uses Wade-Giles instead of Pinyin that's how out-of-date it is, c'mon. [e]: Just imagine a traditional ACE teacher, sweating and eyes darting, standing anxiously before a class of Chinese children as he senses the Devil's hands all around him right in the Heart of Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 14:26 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 13:50
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:If I may ask, what was the discipline policy like at your school? I understand the rewards and privileges students earned, but was discipline anything like Prestor John described? King of Internet fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Aug 27, 2014 |
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Aug 27, 2014 23:35
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Kazak_Hstan posted:So did the adults in training get whacks? In a related vein, were any of the instructors or trainees sexy women? Har har. Like I said, official ACE policy is shying away from corporal punishment, and frankly seems to be pulling from modern literature in terms of disciplinary measures. The worst the discipline system required of us was to write a page long essay explaining the importance of discipline in the learning center. I guess I should note, the training I went to, and pictures I've seen of ones in America, had most people in their 20s to early 30s. In my case there was a couple people in their 50s, but the oldest people there were either repeating training or were the instructors. as for looks, depends on how much you're into Asians. Alright, we talked about training, let's talk about the material, the most distressing of which was the "Wisdom" PACE. This 28 page booklet is basically the School of Tomorrow philosophy, it's goals, beliefs, and reasoning for the way it works. It wastes no time diving head first in willfully ignorant crazy town. It starts with the Philosophy of Christian Education, a set of 5 faith based assumptions that are the foundation of the system. Number one is God Exists. Not a very controversial start for a religious organization, but then they get a little weird trying to justify it. To paraphrase the first law of thermodynamics states energy can not be created or destroyed. Where did the energy of the universe come from then, if it can't be created? God, obviously! It gets better. The second law of thermodynamics says energy is being constantly used, and in the process falls victim to entropy. From this law, we get the idea of the heat death of the universe, which means the universe is finite, and had a discreet ending and beginning (I guess). Therefore, that means at some point in the past, there was a moment where time did not yet exist. The PACE then admits this poo poo is bananas, tells you not to think about the heat death of the universe, and asserts that because the universe started, therefore God. It's things like these that make me believe SoT doesn't really want professional anythings in their classrooms. Next up, God Speaks, which is a quick way to say the Bible is "the starting point of all rational inquiry and the guide to all interpretation of reality." I admit, I barely skimmed this thing for answers in training (the system at work). This gets weirder the more closely I read it. Then it tries to objectively justify the authority of the Bible over 5 pages of the least convincing waffling I've ever read. For example: Wisdom! posted:Ordinarily, when an author begins to mature and change, his scope of life broadens with greater understanding; he usually goes back to correct the answers in his first books. But the Bible does not have to go back and correct itself. Although many different writers at different times in history wrote the Bible, there is a consistency found throughout. Skimming the rest, there's the assertion that modern Israel fulfills Biblical prophecy, that Isaiah 40:22 (It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth......) was what caused Colombus to believe the Earth is a globe, that Hitler hated the Bible, and that the removal of religion from schools has caused "the authoritative teaching of evolution, a dismal decline in character and respect for authority, unabashed promiscuity, and violence." Next time, the School of Tomorrow defends Young Earth Creationism! M.c.P fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Aug 28, 2014 |
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Aug 28, 2014 14:45
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Prester John posted:The description of Checkups/Self Tests/PACE Tests: In a typical 24 page pace every 8 pages would be a Checkup. A checkup consisted of about 1/3rd of the identical comprehension questions asked on the preceding pages. There were 3 Checkups per PACE. After the third Checkup was the Self Test, which was just all three checkups mashed together, with the order of the questions generally unchanged. The day after taking a Self Test you would take the PACE Test, which was exactly half the length of the Self Test and consisted of the exact same questions. I'm a few pages behind, but that's exactly the format of the workbooks I had, so I guess that confirms the connection. I'll check if my folks still have any of them in storage somewhere. Has anyone else heard of these books being used in a home-schooling context?
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Aug 28, 2014 15:24
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M.c.P posted:that Isaiah 40:22 (It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth......) was what caused Colombus to believe the Earth is a globe, This is just straight up wrong, Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in the 240's BC and the mainstream Ptolemaic view of the Universe in Columbus's time had the Earth as a globe. There was no need for a bible verse to inspire Columbus, any man with a Classical education would already believe it. Columbus disputed the consensus on the Earth's circumference, not the nature of it's shape, and he was wrong. If he hadn't found a convenient continent in his way he would have had to turn around and return home well before he ever reached Asia. Thank you yet again Prester John, I always find your threads to be amazingly insightful. Even without the horrifying physical and mental abuse that appears to flourish on one level or another in these programs, I feel like the quality of the curriculum in and of itself is abuse.
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Aug 28, 2014 20:59
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M.c.P posted:
Wait, what? It's not like Christianity isn't an apocalyptic religion, and the end of this world isn't forecast in the Bible itself. Why in the world would they get all worked up about this point?
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Aug 28, 2014 21:12
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How big a Christian is into the end of the world and ignoring science greatly depends on the sect to which they belong.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:27
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M.c.P posted:Isaiah 40:22 (It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth......) was what caused Colombus to believe the Earth is a globe, Surely everyone else who read the Bible would have picked up on this too?
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Aug 28, 2014 22:29
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Kellsterik posted:Surely everyone else who read the Bible would have picked up on this too?  preEnlightenment most people couldn't read and the Bible had to be interpreted by an elite.Also people did know the Earth was round because ancient scientists had done experiments to measure the planet's circumference, it just wasn't common knowledge.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:35
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McDowell posted:
Well, more like pre-Reformation, because the Catholic Church insisted that non-Latin bibles weren't allowed.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:40
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Jesuit missionary José de Acosta postulated in the 16th century that descendants of Adam and Eve traveled to the new world by crossing over a land bridge between Asia and North America.
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Aug 28, 2014 22:55
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McDowell posted:
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Aug 28, 2014 22:58
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icantfindaname posted:Well, more like pre-Reformation, because the Catholic Church insisted that non-Latin bibles weren't allowed. There was that and also literacy being an esoteric skill.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:02
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Wait, what? It's not like Christianity isn't an apocalyptic religion, and the end of this world isn't forecast in the Bible itself. Why in the world would they get all worked up about this point? For a decent amount of Protestant sects, it absolutely is. The whole Second Coming/Tribulation thing is very big in some churches. Using the 2nd Law to "prove" this only shows these guys don't understand what entropy and "heat death" actually are.
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Aug 28, 2014 23:06
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JeffersonClay posted:Yes but then the distance from brim to brim would not be a constant ten cubits. Ah, makes sense.
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Aug 29, 2014 03:17
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rkajdi posted:For a decent amount of Protestant sects, it absolutely is. The whole Second Coming/Tribulation thing is very big in some churches. Using the 2nd Law to "prove" this only shows these guys don't understand what entropy and "heat death" actually are. That's what he was saying. You just didn't parse a double negative correctly.
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Aug 29, 2014 17:23
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McDowell posted:
The idea that Columbus wanted to prove that the Earth was round comes from a joke in (I think) A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The joke depends on you knowing that nobody ever believed the Earth was flat.
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Aug 29, 2014 18:31
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:Jesuit missionary José de Acosta postulated in the 16th century that descendants of Adam and Eve traveled to the new world by crossing over a land bridge between Asia and North America. Acosta is problematic (fake edit: that's a understatement, he justified genocide) Acosta: "If they resist, the war to subjugate them is, in principle, just and legitimate." about the south American Indians which he justifies with (and I am greatly simplifying) because Aristotle/science. When protestants denominations go "gently caress science", or "gently caress Aristotle", or "gently caress scholasticism" (which I think turns into "gently caress academia") don't forget there are/were reasons for it. Not that fundamentalists care about those reasons, or care that when they go: "we're right because science" (that is not really science) to justify hurting people that they are being massively hypocritical. I can't figure out how they (especially the dominionists) get on so well with and are overlapping so much, with the Libertarians/Objectivists who love Aristotle/"science" (again another "science" that isn't really science).
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Aug 29, 2014 20:27
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BrandorKP posted:
I have thought a great deal about this, having grown up amongst such types. I have a pet theory I have developed after thinking a great deal on the matter and having read both The Republican Brain and The Authoritarians. I feel that underneath the window dressing there are a great many similarities between Dominionists, Libertarians, and Conspiracy Theorists/Birchers. I hypothesize that these three groups represent different variations of a common thread of authoritarianism. Although they appear to have dramatic differences, each shares a worlview with a very similar narrative.
I could go on and on with this idea. I feel it explains for example Bitcoiners bizarre expectations of riches. (They are priests of the Free Market and as such will be rewarded in the end) After all what is Atlas shrugged if not just a wordy version of Objectivist Jesus rapturing his people away in the last days as God(The Free Market) pours out his judgement on the rest of the world? What I am arguing here in short is that there is perhaps a naturally occuring subset of people with a mindset that embraces this worldview, and the reason they all get along so well, as well as their being so much noted overlap, is because they all believe essentially the same thing. And they all think of themselves as persecuted/unappreciated noble warriors fighting the good fight whom will in the end be rewarded for their struggles somehow.
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Aug 29, 2014 22:04
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Jack Gladney posted:The idea that Columbus wanted to prove that the Earth was round comes from a joke in (I think) A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. The joke depends on you knowing that nobody ever believed the Earth was flat. I'd imagine the average illiterate peasant didn't really know or care. Seems flat to me. People who actually had globes and stuff just thought there was so much ocean between Europe and Asia that the journey was impossible. But now look how lucky the average person is today. They can read the King James Bible in God's American English and know the world is round while submitting themselves to authority righteously.
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Aug 29, 2014 23:19
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McDowell posted:I'd imagine the average illiterate peasant didn't really know or care. Seems flat to me. People who actually had globes and stuff just thought there was so much ocean between Europe and Asia that the journey was impossible. You could literally see it if you lived next to an ocean.
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Aug 29, 2014 23:21
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computer parts posted:You could literally see it if you lived next to an ocean. You could see it and not think about the implications. Modern curiosity should not be taken for granted. One of the big goals of these kind of indoctrination schemes is to suppress inquisitiveness, which is a form of 'critical thinking'.
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Aug 29, 2014 23:32
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McDowell posted:You could see it and not think about the implications. Modern curiosity should not be taken for granted. One of the big goals of these kind of indoctrination schemes is to suppress inquisitiveness, which is a form of 'critical thinking'. You're supposing that active suppression was a thing in the Middle Ages and Renaissance.
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Aug 29, 2014 23:35
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computer parts posted:You're supposing that active suppression was a thing in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You're supposing that people who saw reading and writing as an esoteric skill thought about the world the same way we do.
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Aug 29, 2014 23:47
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McDowell posted:You're supposing that people who saw reading and writing as an esoteric skill thought about the world the same way we do. You're supposing they didn't.
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Aug 30, 2014 00:10
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Where's our time machine? Do you think the Enlightenment, Mass Literacy, and the adoption of democracy are completely discrete? Mc Do Well fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Aug 30, 2014 |
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Aug 30, 2014 00:13
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McDowell posted:Where's our time machine? We have evidence from historical records that people ate, drank, slept, hosed, hell even married in much of the same circumstances as people today. With that in mind it's safe to assume that people thought along the same lines as poor people today do, at the very least.
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Aug 30, 2014 00:18
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Even if they couldn't read, there was plenty of church art explicitly depicting the world as round. One thing to keep in mind with how esoteric reading was is how valuable books were. Before the printing press, books were rare, incredibly expensive things. "Very few people know how to use an rare, incredibly expensive thing" isn't a terribly surprising statement. Despite that, what you find in every civilization is a literate that seem to have pretty broad access to the people. Instead of firing up the internet, in medieval Europe you'd go ask your priest. Not that they often weren't a total joke, so what? It was still a broadly supported movement to give people access to knowledge.
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Aug 30, 2014 00:34
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The whole "People back then believed the world is flat" thing is partially an artifact of Renaissance writers embellishing how dumb their ancestors were to make the Renaissance seem even bigger. This continued into the enlightenment.
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Aug 30, 2014 01:31
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RagnarokAngel posted:The whole "People back then believed the world is flat" thing is partially an artifact of Renaissance writers embellishing how dumb their ancestors were to make the Renaissance seem even bigger. This continued into the enlightenment. Yeah basically this. Everyone zeroed in on Lactantius (3rd/4th century C.E.) as an example of the errors of the ancients in thinking that the earth was flat, but he was a major outlier: pretty much no educated person had thought the earth was flat since around the 3rd century BCE or so.
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Aug 30, 2014 03:12
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 21:21 |
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RagnarokAngel posted:The whole "People back then believed the world is flat" thing is partially an artifact of Renaissance writers embellishing how dumb their ancestors were to make the Renaissance seem even bigger. This continued into the enlightenment.
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Aug 30, 2014 20:29
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