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TheLovablePlutonis posted:And the Lord knows how I tried to derail that poo poo away from xbone loving sucks-thread like stuff. Oh he knows. I just got the book and it looks very polished and more fun then the early playtest stuff I got, which really turned me off to the edition. I'm wondering though, what's stopping fights from being big HP sponge encounters? Damage looks lower than 3E and 4E, but HP are basically the same as 3E.
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Aug 31, 2014 16:37
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Infinite Karma posted:But have you heard about caster supremacy? It exists! Don't worry, it's been through the same maths wringer as everything else.
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Aug 31, 2014 16:51
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Gort posted:Don't worry, it's been through the same maths wringer as everything else.
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Aug 31, 2014 16:54
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Infinite Karma posted:I'm wondering though, what's stopping fights from being big HP sponge encounters? A sufficient number of skeletons.
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Aug 31, 2014 17:41
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MadScientistWorking posted:I really hope they ditch the racist settings. Its bad enough that Mearls actually in 5E stated that the artwork is meant to invoke some of that dreck. Honest question: how is racist? I never even so much as read the setting, so my casual understanding is it is a Central/South American flavored campaign setting in the same manner that other campaign settings are Northern European flavored settings.
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Aug 31, 2014 18:09
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Cyclomatic posted:Honest question: how is racist? maybe he means that it's racist like fantasy people hate other fantasy races or maybe I just don't know anything about DnD's default setting, but I haven't seen anything that I thought was racist unless you're determined to be offended (some people are!)
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Aug 31, 2014 18:11
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I haven't read it either, but I guess it wouldn't escape some 'noble savage' undertones at the least. Then again, 'Barbarian' is still a core class despite its distinctly colonialist bouquet, to say nothing of orcs and drow.
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Aug 31, 2014 18:40
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Cyclomatic posted:Honest question: how is racist? Rascist might be too strong, maybe imperialist? The problem with the DnD settings that try to mirror non-European cultures (Kura-Tur, Chult, Maztica) is that they end up coming across as the reductionist colonial view of those cultures that was so prevalent 60- 70 years ago because the settings were created white guys whose only exposure to those cultures came from books written during that time. The European counterparts are filled with many countries each with a clear voice and cultural divide from their neighbors while non-white cultures tend to be homogenous barbarism with the occasional warring tribes and the only concession to the fact that each of these cultures had pieces of technology or culture more advanced that their European counterparts is that not-China gets crude gunpowder and masterwork broadswords. There's also the fact that at the time that the look of these settings were being codified fantasy artists had three types of humans- white people, white people with a tan, white people carved from obsidian. I'm not saying it's impossible to update these settings with current anthropological ideas, but it take more effort than Mearls has given this edition so far.
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Aug 31, 2014 18:43
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Rascist might be too strong, maybe imperialist? The problem with the DnD settings that try to mirror non-European cultures (Kura-Tur, Chult, Maztica) is that they end up coming across as the reductionist colonial view of those cultures that was so prevalent 60- 70 years ago because the settings were created white guys whose only exposure to those cultures came from books written during that time. The European counterparts are filled with many countries each with a clear voice and cultural divide from their neighbors while non-white cultures tend to be homogenous barbarism with the occasional warring tribes and the only concession to the fact that each of these cultures had pieces of technology or culture more advanced that their European counterparts is that not-China gets crude gunpowder and masterwork broadswords. Wait, is this real? I haven't seen anything like this in the 5e book. It seems pretty diverse to me. I mean, it doesn't make a difference to me because I don't think I've ever used the default setting in DnD, but that doesn't stop this from being terrible writing if it actually exists (talking about 5e specifically.)
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Aug 31, 2014 18:55
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Cyclomatic posted:Honest question: how is racist? There's two main reasons why this kind of thing is racist. One, they're almost always Western stereotypes of the culture, which means Kara-Tur is a mysterious mystical land to the east where everyone does kung fu and uses chi and Maztica is a massive jungle where people tear their enemies' hearts out on top of pyramids to appease their gods and that kind of stuff stopped being acceptable world building in the 80s. Two, even if they're not what someone who knows nothing about the culture they're basing it on thinks that culture is like, it still implies that an Aztec-themed country or Asia-themed country is just as strange and fantastical as the country ruled by a literal cabal of wizard-kings. Hell, they'd probably seem stranger because the cabal of wizard-kings gets multiple pages written about it when the places like Kara-Tur and Maztica just get a few paragraphs about how they're far away from the default starting countries and no one around there knows that much about them. Also what Macdeo and Littlefinger said while I was writing this post. dichloroisocyanuric posted:Wait, is this real? I haven't seen anything like this in the 5e book. It seems pretty diverse to me. Well, it's what the past versions of places like Kara-Tur were like. Those past versions are also the only version of places like Kara-Tur we're going to get until someone makes an adventure set there because WotC isn't making a Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for 5e as far as I know. So 5e isn't being actively bad about it, but they aren't exactly helping people not make them weird and racist at the moment. Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Aug 31, 2014 |
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Aug 31, 2014 19:03
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It's also easy to arrive at racist rules through non-malicious means; You might want to give fantasy Italians bonus intelligence to suggest Machiavellian power games, and fantasy Saharan desert nomads bonus constitution from living in a physically hostile environment. It doesn't look bad until you take a step back and realize you just designed a setting where Europeans are smarter than Africans.
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Aug 31, 2014 19:16
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To be fair to the FR sub-settings, they handle some of this stuff quite well. For example, on the technology front, Old Empires made a big deal out of Mulhorand (FR Egypt) being the most technologically advanced society in Faerun, possessing a high level of mechanical engineering. The Horde Setting (FR Eurasian Steppes) shows that region as being filled with many different societies that don't fit the "Mongol" mode (though the dominant Tuigan people emphatically do). Maztica contains a great deal of information to differentiate its Aztec, Inca, and Mayan analogs. Zakhara is all about the deep divides that exist beneath the surface religious mono-culture. The specter of orientalism constantly raises its head because it's an inherent aspect of presenting non-European cultures as "exotic," but it seems like the TSR designers at least tried to be thoughtful and careful when designing these sub-settings. Which is kinda why Maztica stands out so fiercely. The whole thing seems inherently insensitive. The story that introduces it valorizes the conquistadors, villifies that not-Aztecs, and recasts one of the greatest sins of Western Civilization as a conflict started by a pair of misguided and hateful priests. It goes beyond orientalism and becomes a weird sort of revisionist history.
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Aug 31, 2014 19:24
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dichloroisocyanuric posted:Wait, is this real? I haven't seen anything like this in the 5e book. It seems pretty diverse to me.
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Aug 31, 2014 19:58
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MadScientistWorking posted:Even when Wizards of the Coast was printing 4E they were 50/50 split between pretty decent portray (Don't remember Kara-Tur being horrible) and you idiots that is still racist (Vistani, Drow Epic Destiny) of problematic stuff from previous editions. I'm not sure how much of that will change but I really don't think any of them are deft enough to even be able to touch it. 4E handled Kara-Tur in a weird way. It didn't really develop the region, and instead focused its attention on Shou emigrants to Faerun, sort of both avoiding and ultimately reinforcing the Orientalist presentation. It became so distant and mysterious that it was distant and mysterious to characters ostensibly "from" it.
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Aug 31, 2014 20:10
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moths posted:It's also easy to arrive at racist rules through non-malicious means; You might want to give fantasy Italians bonus intelligence to suggest Machiavellian power games, and fantasy Saharan desert nomads bonus constitution from living in a physically hostile environment. That's why such things are better handled through cultural skill bonuses rather than generalizing and static racial modifiers. Why you could give said fantasy "italian" minority (certainly not everyone in fantasy Italy would have those skills, it would have to be related to a specific subculture) bonuses to things related to power. Like influencing politics, banking and handling money, occult sorcery, daggers and backstabbing and so on  What I'm saying is, round up and toss all Gnomes in giant ovens 
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Aug 31, 2014 20:30
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I'm not really sure you need mechanical modeling of these things at all. All these attempts at making "Italians get +1 to poisoning people" less hosed up seem more like damage control than anything else, and it interacts with chargen in general badly. Once you combine racial/cultural bonuses with optimization you end up with a situation where you're picking your character's backstory to min/max your combat potential, not to make a character that's (non-mechanically) interesting. The whole idea behind having these bonuses always seemed to me like it was to encourage a bunch of varied and interesting characters, but instead it really feels like it does the opposite. I'm okay with 4e-style 'special ability' type stuff, like Dragonborn getting a breath weapon, but those things really need to be stand-alone abilities rather than just numbers going up.
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Aug 31, 2014 21:03
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This can quickly become a whole new discussion, because optimization in DnD is totally wack.
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Aug 31, 2014 21:23
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OtspIII posted:I'm not really sure you need mechanical modeling of these things at all. All these attempts at making "Italians get +1 to poisoning people" less hosed up seem more like damage control than anything else, and it interacts with chargen in general badly. Yeah, it could be fine as a sort of "this region is renowned for its experts on poisons/special poisonous peach farms/Deadly Strawberry Chefs" but it shouldn't be a mechanical thing, just a fluffy help for character backgrounds. Taking care to not end up with entire countries who's populations are specialized in thievery (and happen to be oddly gypsy inspired in the artwork) or what have you.
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Aug 31, 2014 21:46
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I haven't been keeping track. Has a program that automatically fills out character sheets been announced?
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Aug 31, 2014 21:54
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Fozzy The Bear posted:I haven't been keeping track. Has a program that automatically fills out character sheets been announced? Would be nice, unless they throw it behind a paywall again. Friend who has never DMed before wants to run it so he grabbed the module and we're gonna try and have a go at it sometime this week. Right now we have a druid who wants to tank, a paladin, rogue and me as the super cool bard. Rolled decently for stats, 2 good, 2 middling and 2 bad so I shouldn't have any trouble rocking out.
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Aug 31, 2014 22:52
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Why would you roll for stats? 
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Aug 31, 2014 23:00
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Jack the Lad posted:Why would you roll for stats? I like rolling dice. Edit: Quote is not edit. Edit:2 vvvv Also what he said. I got 6,16,12,11,8,17 so I did pretty good. With dragonborn that 17 turns to an 18 so my bard is pretty well set as the face of the group. Cainer fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Aug 31, 2014 |
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Aug 31, 2014 23:02
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Jack the Lad posted:Why would you roll for stats? With the standard array capping out at 15, there's something to be said for rolling. You have a pretty decent shot at getting a 16 and that would allow you to start with an 18 in your main stat (depending on race) so you can cap out at level 4. It's risky but if you pull it off you're ahead of the curve.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:07
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Jack the Lad posted:Why would you roll for stats? Truhdishun™. Also if you're lucky it's not that hard to roll much better ability scores than the dogshit array you're presented with. Hell, I did it just now on a lark and because it's not for a game where I'd actually get to use them I got 16, 16, 14, 13, 11, 11. My greed and stupidity is rewarded by getting to have a character 9 ability points better than Mr. I'm-Going-To-Take-the-Array-Because-I-Have-Poor-Luck-with-Rolling-Ability-Scores. (This gulf is often referred to as "Player Skill.") In Next terms, this is the equivalent of getting 4-and-half extra feats for free, permanently, from the very beginning of the game, in a game in which you normally only get 5 feats ever. I'm sure this was all run through the Math Wringer though.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:24
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Cainer posted:Would be nice, unless they throw it behind a paywall again. But it was incredibly cheap and had an amazing value? You got access to literally everything 4e had to offer for the money.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:24
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Fozzy The Bear posted:I haven't been keeping track. Has a program that automatically fills out character sheets been announced? Yes, still in beta, by all accounts I've seen, not the best piece of design (as if that's surprising). It's called Codename: Morningstar.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:26
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Jack the Lad posted:Why would you roll for stats? Better question is why are the array and point-buy methods are so loving terrible.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:27
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thespaceinvader posted:Yes, still in beta, by all accounts I've seen, not the best piece of design (as if that's surprising). It's called Codename: Morningstar. Actully it's called Dungeonscape. People that have tried it seem to like it however. Strength of Many posted:Better question is why are the array and point-buy methods are so loving terrible. Their not terrible though.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:37
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dichloroisocyanuric posted:But it was incredibly cheap and had an amazing value? You got access to literally everything 4e had to offer for the money. I have been burned by too many sub plans in the past so when I see one I cringe and run away crying. Plus I didn't really like 4e that much so I never really looked into its value. I just remember getting invited to a 4e game and wanting to make a character, remembering the character builder was free at some point I went to go grab it and was annoyed to find it hidden behind a paywall.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:39
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Strength of Many posted:Better question is why are the array and point-buy methods are so loving terrible. To encourage you to roll for your scores, which is the Real and Correct Way.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:45
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Strength of Many posted:Better question is why are the array and point-buy methods are so loving terrible. Pretty sure this path leads to Death to Ability Scores, which is the correct answer.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:47
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But yeah to expand on my question, you get 5 Ability Score Increases over the course of your career 1-20. If you roll, you can roll poorly and potentially lose several or even all of those. You can also roll well and potentially gain several Ability Score Increases. You can also encounter a situation where your friend rolls badly and you roll well, or vice versa, which widens the gap still further. And those bonuses or penalties are permanent. You're stuck with them for the whole life of that character. You might just have -2 to an important save or your AC or attacks because you rolled badly, once, at the start of the campaign. Look at it this way; if there were a level 1 monster that had a curse effect that gave you -3 to an ability score, permanently, with no way to remove or dispel it whatsoever, would that be a cool monster to fight?
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Aug 31, 2014 23:50
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Solid Jake posted:Truhdishun™. Or when you roll dice to be greedy and stupid only to roll like dog poo poo, and then play one session while being passive aggressive about your useless character letting down the party until the DM lets you re-make your character with the array or you suicide your character to roll again. When you roll the dice knowing there is no true gamble in the ultimate outcome, that is true "Player Skill" young Padawan.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:51
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Speaking of digital D&D stuff, Beamdog is now doing an enhanced version of the Icewind Dale series. They did a great job on BG1+BG2.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:52
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Actually I change my mind I guess rolling is cool: Wait no this sucks can I reroll?  This is a really good example of what I'm talking about. How would you feel if you were the second guy? That's 9 ability points you're behind. Forever. Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Aug 31, 2014 |
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Aug 31, 2014 23:56
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Jack the Lad posted:Actually I change my mind I guess rolling is cool: Rolling is awesome! Getting low stats isn't all that bad, you get to think of fun ways to play around them. Taking an 8 in wisdom so I'll be playing him off as absent-minded. No ones gonna force the lazy near sighted dragonman to take watch. We'd be surrounded by ninja kobolds gutting us like fish in no time! Edit: vvvv Well do that then, I'm not saying you shouldn't use arrays or point buy stuff. I just prefer to roll out my stats for that little edge of randomness. Cainer fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Sep 1, 2014 |
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Sep 1, 2014 00:02
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Cainer posted:Rolling is awesome! Getting low stats isn't all that bad, you get to think of fun ways to play around them. Taking an 8 in wisdom so I'll be playing him off as absent-minded. No ones gonna force the lazy near sighted dragonman to take watch. We'd be surrounded by ninja kobolds gutting us like fish in no time! but you can just play a 10 point buy game, or a 20, or 25, etc..
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Sep 1, 2014 00:05
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edit: double post
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Sep 1, 2014 00:05
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The only thing worse than rolled Ability Scores is rolling for Hit Points, something so blatantly and aggressively awful that not even the most regressive grognard has even bothered defending it. Naturally, Next brought it back.
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Sep 1, 2014 00:11
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MonsterEnvy posted:Actully it's called Dungeonscape. People that have tried it seem to like it however. They are bad and it is indisputable. The averages are terrible and encourage cookie cutter poo poo. Its already hard enough to make interesting mechanical choices in character building with race/class combos being blatantly obvious and penalizing if you deviate from them. Unless you are the human master race and get your free feat, which is technically a +1 to an ability AND extra goodies which brings them out ahead of most races, and skill proficiencies.  Cainer posted:Rolling is awesome! Getting low stats isn't all that bad, you get to think of fun ways to play around them. Taking an 8 in wisdom so I'll be playing him off as absent-minded. No ones gonna force the lazy near sighted dragonman to take watch. We'd be surrounded by ninja kobolds gutting us like fish in no time! Uh no, that's not a particularly compelling reason for bad stats. This is why we need to kill Ability scores. If people want their stats to reflect their roleplaying then have an optional Flaw/Specialty system for that crowd. 'My character is absent minded and people slip by him all the time! But he's also a wise erudite priest! Why can't the stats reflect this?!' So you give him the Absent-Minded flaw. Now he takes penalties to his (passive) perception. Abilities are too sweeping in their application and being universally penalized in everything related to them because you rolled poorly is stupid. Strength of Many fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Sep 1, 2014 |
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Sep 1, 2014 00:11
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