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ThatsMyBoye posted:Elcano gained a point in vsR DaSilva's development owns so much 
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Sep 2, 2014 21:59
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uublog posted:If ballots were 10 players deep, sure, why not Krueter was like 6th or 7th on my ballot, if I exclude Ramiro
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Sep 2, 2014 22:14
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I'm feeling frisky and entertaining offers for Vin Mendoza I'd entertain offers for McKay Ray too but he has a NTC so the options are limited
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Sep 2, 2014 22:26
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nasboat posted:I'm feeling frisky and entertaining offers for Vin Mendoza Would he even take a trade anywhere? You had the best overall team last season.
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Sep 2, 2014 22:29
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Caught Cubs Posting
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Devo posted:Would he even take a trade anywhere? You had the best overall team last season. Ray would take a trade to multiple teams, it's not just W/L that's the end-all, be-all of the ones I tested, he'll accept a trade to Cleveland, Anaheim, Santa Fe and New York (art) but wouldn't take deals to Tampa Bay, New Orleans or Portland
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Sep 2, 2014 22:57
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Interesting. I always thought it was just based on record.
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Sep 2, 2014 23:06
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this trade, what the gently caress is going on
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Sep 3, 2014 04:16
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That is a legit awful trade I don't get it at all
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Sep 3, 2014 04:28
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Art, Cody Roosevelt is the single most valuable player in the world what the gently caress are you doing nasboat, for as much as you like to bitch about Jeff making moves you sure take your shots where you can
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Sep 3, 2014 04:34
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Evaluating on a phone so I'm only looking at a glance but that does not look outrageous to me.Devo posted:Cody Roosevelt is the single most valuable player in the world Not sure I agree
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Sep 3, 2014 04:45
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AlleyViper posted:Evaluating on a phone so I'm only looking at a glance but that does not look outrageous to me. I'll take suggestions. Nothing else is popping out at me.
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Sep 3, 2014 04:47
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I don't think the trade is outrageous, it just doesn't make any sense. Art gives up pieces, and basically get the same things back, only mostly worse and/or older and expensive options. Also: Art has said he's probably leaving after this season, so he's throwing future value away because of: and that's not exactly something I want to endorse. EvilBeard fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 05:02
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EvilBeard posted:I don't think the trade is outrageous, it just doesn't make any sense. Art gives up pieces, and basically get the same things back, only mostly worse and/or older and expensive options. Also: Art has said he's probably leaving after this season, so he's throwing future value away because of: I don't necessarily think this is a lopsided veto. But it is loving stupid on just about every level from Art's side. That chatlog is leaning me towards the veto button though
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Sep 3, 2014 05:07
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So, taking a closer look...yeah. Art may be giving up the best asset in the deal but he's getting what are decidedly the 2nd, 3rd and 4th best assets in the deal, and arguably the 1st and 2nd best player in the deal. Ray costs a ton but he is still a left-handed, 1.000 OPS bat who has produced to that level even in neutral parks, and who should decline fairly gracefully. Unless you believe that VsR is completely and solely the deciding rating for a pitcher, there's an argument to be made that Moose is actually a better pitcher than Cody. Don Cole is a super cool bat who can pretend to play CF, and the bat is good enough to cover for the fact he'd only be pretending to play CF. Or he's an elite defensive COF with the bat to play COF. And he shouldn't ever test FA. There's a reason jeff has been pestering nasboat for ages to get him. Louie Howard at this point is roughly a slightly-rearranged Clinton Mahoney skill-set, who has performed erratically on his career, and who will be turning 35 if he will re-sign. That's not exactly a killer asset. Henderson Harris has struggled to stay above an .800 OPS in neutral parks and is basically guaranteed to walk in six seasons. If he's even worth locking up for the full arb extension with what he'll cost if he keeps producing ~.800 OPSes. Cody's awesome but he's also pretty likely, though admittedly not a lock, to walk after his arb extension. So, assuming that Cody will walk and Cole doesn't, Art's getting four seasons of top-end offense in Ray, six seasons of an ace starter in Moose, and let's say 7 seasons of Cole before he starts to decline plus several more productive seasons beyond that, for seven seasons of Cody + Louie and Harris. Given that the latter two guys aren't nothing assets Art probably could have done better, sure. But this is hardly, hardly the worst trade I've seen. But I'm a guy who doesn't think Tex Watson is a top 10-12 offensive asset in the entire world, so I may not know much at all. Devo posted:I'll take suggestions. Nothing else is popping out at me. I would give up Cody straight up for Deivi, personally. Without scouting I might guess someone like John Swindell or Alan Hayes or Omar Valdes would be more valuable. Kirk Moses is debatably more valuable given re-signability. I'm a big Raul Castro fan and might make a case for him. Cody's not a slam dunk as the most valuable player.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:21
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What AV said cool your jets and look at the deal
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Sep 3, 2014 05:23
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Yeah it's absolutely not veto-worthy. Art had better deals that he rejected previously but that doesn't mean that this is a horrible crime or anything. If you want a bad trade to complain about just look at my Priest deal.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:27
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I actually agree with a lot of what AV said except for the part where Moose is anywhere near the pitcher Cody is. Because even ignoring salary that is simply untrue. And I don't think any of those players you named are worth a minimum salary Cody Roosevelt straight up. I also am completely against giving a declining max salary player to a new player with 14 training but I can't decide yet if that chat log is for real or is just Art pulling the same bullshit "I'm gonna quit" act he always does.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:31
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And again I wasn't going to veto this trade originally I just think it's loving stupid
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Sep 3, 2014 05:32
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Devo posted:I actually agree with a lot of what AV said except for the part where Moose is anywhere near the pitcher Cody is. Because even ignoring salary that is simply untrue. code:Plus Moose has higher durability and stamina.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:39
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You're missing P3, P4, and P5 which is why I actually hate Moose
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Sep 3, 2014 05:42
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I'm not missing them, I just don't think they're that important. I'm not in the "bad pitches pull down performance" camp, especially if you have a good PC catcher.
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Sep 3, 2014 05:45
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I'm in the camp where that 17 rated P5 is an active detriment to the pitcher and a bunch of dingers waiting to happen
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Sep 3, 2014 05:52
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Devo posted:And again I wasn't going to veto this trade originally I just think it's loving stupid
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Sep 3, 2014 05:54
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And since you mentioned that Cody was a doubtful re-sign let's not overlook the fact that Moose's patience is literally 0
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Sep 3, 2014 05:54
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Didn't bother Glen Little to have a 17 rated pitch. I would take Moose's repertoire over DaSilva's (who is another guy debatably more valuable than Cody). Even if we allow that Moose's last pitch is a detriment, is it really enough to push Moose into "not anywhere near" Cody?Devo posted:And since you mentioned that Cody was a doubtful re-sign let's not overlook the fact that Moose's patience is literally 0 It wasn't overlooked, I expressly considered it in my effort post.
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Sep 3, 2014 06:04
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I don't like Omar "left handed Bud McDonald" DaSilva either. Cody is better.
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Sep 3, 2014 06:09
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Omar DaSilva owns and has proven it over the past 5 seasons (the post-season doesn't exist) also there's zero chance that Art leaves after this season, that's Art being Art, he's not going anywhere e: I was busy earlier and couldn't be around to fully immerse myself but thanks to AV for that effort post that breaks it down nicely. nasboat fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 06:13
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nasboat posted:Omar DaSilva owns and has proven it over the past 5 seasons (the post-season doesn't exist) 3.35 career ERA despite having two splits in the 90s, an 87 PC catcher calling his games, and a more than solid defense behind him. I really really wish HBD didn't erase league leaders from season to season because I'd bet that Omar has only been in the top 10 of ERA maybe one time in his career.
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Sep 3, 2014 06:20
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Devo posted:I'm in the camp where that 17 rated P5 is an active detriment to the pitcher and a bunch of dingers waiting to happen As a former Moose owner, I can confirm that he gives up an absolute fuckload of dingers I'm staying out of the rest of this debate for my health though I'm obviously not vetoing uublog fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 06:25
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I think it is funny that Art takes this deal after vetoing like 45000 trades that were way better from Jeff and Nasboat.
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Sep 3, 2014 13:49
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Hi. I largely agree with AV, except for a few points: 1.) While I don't think McKay Ray is a negative value contract (full disclosure: I was the other max bidder in his free agency and at least put a feeler out when nasboat made him available this year), I don't know that at the max at 32 and already taking hits that he has premium trade value either. Ray's already taking hits from his prime, which makes him the distant third piece here to me, and while the year 1 money matches up, Art is taking on tons of money in years 2-5, which leads us to... 2.) Art's comments in chat concerned me a bit both because a departing owner shouldn't be doing this (when Nate did this on his way out it really hurt that franchise for a long time) and also from a practical level because Ray is going to badly need 20/20 and top shelf coaching to not turn into a severe negative value in two years time or so. 3.) I am not exactly the president of the Moose Sellers fan club; the idea that he's even close to Cody is a bit baffling to me to be honest (another full disclosure: I have offered Art about a hundred Cody trades as recently as yesterday, and am pretty sure I could have beaten this offer and chose to stand at a lower offer that wasn't going to get me home, because I do agree with the general thrust that Cody is overrated; I saw him as only a moderate upgrade over Priest when considering contract status). I suspect my view of the non-Ray value coming back does even out in that I am the president of the Don Cole fan club, though. Also a special congrats to Art and nasboat for getting me to post for the first time in six months. Maybe I will like bookmark this thread only or something.
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Sep 3, 2014 15:52
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JEFFERSON LIVES! I stand by my statement that there's zero way Art leaves after this year, it's Art being Art also McKay Ray isn't taking any in-season hits yet so I don't think it's a major decline so far, he ought to hold up in that fashion until he's 34, I'd estimate
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Sep 3, 2014 16:07
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I read all the words about the trade and still think it is an awful deal. I think people should be allowed to make bad trades to an extent but it should be vetoed if the guy is actually leaving since it is basically making the next owner and league in general eat a big poo poo sandwich in the future.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:11
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Cody is better than Sean Priest too. Someone trade me Cody because I'm the only one that loves him properly e: I mean I know jeff said he was a moderate upgrade, but even at even contracts I think Cody is better Devo fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 16:21
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Devo posted:Cody is better than Sean Priest too. Cody is the best of the extreme vR/good not great other stuff class - and I own or have owned a lot of this class, and generally like the profile - and obviously I would deal Priest-plus for Cody. I just wouldn't deal Priest-plus-plus-plus for him, say Rigby and Batista, which would be my version of the Cole and Ray part. A lot of that is the "hidden" hit to Cody's value in that I don't see age/contract as a significant factor vs. Priest given Cody's overall and patience
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Sep 3, 2014 16:38
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That's totally fair. I was just talking about a hypothetical scenario where they're both making 8 mil a year. I take Cody over Priest every time and I think you agree with me there. Priest is good enough where you don't have to throw in Rigby for an upgrade in the real world scenario.
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Sep 3, 2014 16:52
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FWIW art told me in TC that he's not leaving so if you have vetoed or are planning to based on that, it's not happening
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Sep 3, 2014 17:14
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And in just one game, Jermaine Bailey has been demoted from SuA to SuB
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Sep 3, 2014 18:03
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In my 11 DiMaggio seasons, I am almost certain I have never started the season during the PM1 cycle. And always start against Stimpy. HBD scheduling is great.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:09
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Capt Murphy posted:In my 11 DiMaggio seasons, I am almost certain I have never started the season during the PM1 cycle. And always start against Stimpy. HBD scheduling is great. I either start the PM against DC or the PM2 against EvilBeard. Never start against
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Sep 3, 2014 20:12
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