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WarEternal posted:Am I missing something or is it horrendously inconvenient that the spells section is organized alphabetically? Nah it's pretty aggravating. I'd rather have it organized by class & level in a manner that doesn't necessitate checking said list and then going to the alphabetical one to figure out what the spell actually does. I guess then you run into the problem where multiple classes use the same spells though.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:31
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Vorpal Cat posted:And where exactly in the rules does it say that clerics are this rare? Where does it say that your average priest, who have the same spiritual training as clerics if less martial, can't use low level divine magic? Clerics obviously can't be that rare otherwise how would every single rinky dink adventuring party be able to hire one, considering that up till 3ed edition's stupidly cheap healing potions they were basically mandatory. The basic rules repeatedly explain that "priest" and "cleric" aren't the same thing, that true clerics are rares, that most religious officials and devotees are possessed of no special powers whatsoever, etc. You're just ignoring the text entirely in order to make up something deliberately ridiculous, so that you can then call the ridiculous thing ridiculous, all for the purpose of denigrating a game that has genuine problems totally unrelated to its core setting conceits. It's lazy.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:37
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Generic Octopus posted:Nah it's pretty aggravating. I'd rather have it organized by class & level in a manner that doesn't necessitate checking said list and then going to the alphabetical one to figure out what the spell actually does. I guess then you run into the problem where multiple classes use the same spells though. Would be a little nicer if the spells by caster list had a notation telling us a little bit like what they did or what school they belong too or even just a page number, but ya I guess they would be repeating themselves a lot with other classes using the same spells.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:39
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You could at least organise it first by spell level and then alphabetically. People might share spells but you're never going to need a level 5 spell until you hit level 9. Here's a minor peeve, related to this - why do we still have characters going from level 1 to level 20, but spells go from level 1 to 9? It's dumb to have level 3 spells only show up when your character hits level 5, and it's very stupid explaining to new players that in order to work out what the highest level spells you can cast are, you have to take the level of the spell, multiply it by two and then subtract one. Spell level you can cast = (your level x 2) - 1 ----- It's equally stupid to have ability scores that virtually never get used. Instead you work out a modifier to use based on the following formula: Modifier = (Your attribute - 10)/2, round down How the hell did we go through five editions of the game and we're still stuck with this rubbish?
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Sep 3, 2014 20:40
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Generic Octopus posted:Nah it's pretty aggravating. I'd rather have it organized by class & level in a manner that doesn't necessitate checking said list and then going to the alphabetical one to figure out what the spell actually does. I guess then you run into the problem where multiple classes use the same spells though. It's pretty useful when looking up a spell by name as a DM. It's pretty not useful when creating or leveling a character as a player.
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Sep 3, 2014 20:40
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Jack the Lad posted:Look at the Stone Golem. A natural 20 is always a pass no matter what. Now lets say you are a Wizard Fighting the Stone Golem in some lair of a Wizard were it's guarding a door (The Room is 20 ft by 20 ft). Don't look at it's stat block as players are generally not allowed to do so which spell does your wizard use on the Golem to disable it? You are a level 10 wizard. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 20:40
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MonsterEnvy posted:A natural 20 is always a pass no matter what. Well, clearly, we need a fighter because he's the only one who can neutralize such a threat. Unless I pop Invisibility and walk right on past. Is Gaseous Form still in? Maybe I wanna be a cloud instead. Nah y'know what, I'm feelin fancy. I'm gonna pop Wall of Stone, fill most of the room, and make a little corridor for us to go through. Good thing we're a 10th level Wizard! Can you imagine trying to stab this thing to death? That would take all day.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:06
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I'd use shatter. Ok, tell me how I did? Better or worse than hitting it with a non-magical weapon?
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Sep 3, 2014 21:19
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MonsterEnvy posted:A natural 20 is always a pass no matter what. Page reference? I see this for attack rolls but not other types of rolls. Sage Genesis fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 21:28
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Ferrinus posted:The basic rules repeatedly explain that "priest" and "cleric" aren't the same thing, that true clerics are rares, that most religious officials and devotees are possessed of no special powers whatsoever, etc. You're just ignoring the text entirely in order to make up something deliberately ridiculous, so that you can then call the ridiculous thing ridiculous, all for the purpose of denigrating a game that has genuine problems totally unrelated to its core setting conceits. It's lazy. Actually, that sounds like an incredible amount of effort. And frankly that scans a lot better: you have to put in a lot of work to say something bad about D&D 5e that turns out to be wrong.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:31
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Sage Genesis posted:Page reference? I see this for attack rolls but not other typeso f rolls. Yeah, there's no auto success for rolling a 20 on saving throws
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Sep 3, 2014 21:32
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MonsterEnvy posted:A natural 20 is always a pass no matter what. "You mean there's really no place to hide so I can get extra sneak attack damage? It's immune because I don't have magic arrows or a magic dagger? How am I supposed to damage this thing? It's taking up the entire doorway so I can't sneak by? And it's ignoring my attempts to create a noise down the hall for it to investigate? poo poo, my rogue is useless under these conditions."
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Sep 3, 2014 21:53
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Strength of Many posted:Thank you for giving me ideas for my next homebrew setting. See Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archives where this, in fact the case; most food is wheat transmuted from stone, and most major buildings are built in wood then petrified.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:55
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WarEternal posted:Am I missing something or is it horrendously inconvenient that the spells section is organized alphabetically? You haven't missed anything. They are unquestionably terrible in their lay out.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:18
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I think someone else already pointed this out, but the spell list has no choice but to be alphabetized alphabetically because it's the single master document of all magical effects. Fireball isn't a wizard spell, it's just a spell wizards happen to have access to - but that other classes and monsters might access as well, depending on their own features and spell lists. It's pretty rigorously standardized, from what I can tell - someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's any such thing anymore of one class casting a spell at a lower level than another does, i.e. the Cler 3 Sor/Wiz 2 of yore.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 22:23
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I would like it to be organized by spell school, maybe with the master list (that shows each class -> spell correspondence) listing the school as well so it's easier to find. I guess you could also split that up into levels. And then alphabetically from there. Really, a really well laid out master list with school, level, and page would mean the spells could be listed in random order and it would still be a cinch to find what you're looking for.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:39
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MonsterEnvy posted:A natural 20 is always a pass no matter what. I'm genuinely baffled by the fact that you're so invested in defending 5e that you'll take a stand even on this obviously terrible piece of design. You would actually make a stronger case - and I'd be more inclined to believe you're arguing in good faith - if you said "huh, yeah, that is kind of bad/lame, but I still like the game overall and I don't feel that the Stone Golem is representative of the quality of the design generally". A natural 20 is not an automatic success on a saving throw. You've been wrong about the rules a lot in this thread already, so it would probably be best if you started checking them before making assertions like that. Even if it was, that would mean it passes Int and Cha saves 10% of the time. Is that balanced? That said, allowing saves is for chumps. In my post, (as in the one you quoted) I mention four spells that will do the job with no saving throws involved; Reverse Gravity, Fly, Levitate and Spider Climb. Another would be Wall of Force, which traps it, no save, in an inescapable dome through which I can plink it down with cantrips. Another would be Passwall, with which I can go around the golem entirely. Another would be Minor Illusion, which isn't even a proper spell, just a cantrip. The Stone Golem can literally never make the Intelligence (Investigation) check required to determine that my illusions are illusions. Another would be Evard's Black Tentacles, which conveniently exactly fills a 20x20 room. Another would be Dimension Door to teleport past it. Another would be Invisibility to sneak past - it has Passive Perception 10. How many examples do you want? Do you think non-casters have better options available? Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 22:44
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EscortMission posted:Well, clearly, we need a fighter because he's the only one who can neutralize such a threat. Invisibility in this game does not actually make you any harder to detect. Gaseous form just gives you damage resist from Non magic Weapons meaning it's super useless. Wall of Stone won't help you get past it as it is standing in front of the exit. Jack the Lad posted:I'm genuinely baffled by the fact that you're so invested in defending 5e that you'll take a stand even on this obviously terrible piece of design. You would actually make a stronger case - and I'd be more inclined to believe you're arguing in good faith - if you said "huh, yeah, that is kind of bad/lame, but I still like the game overall and I don't feel that the Stone Golem is representative of the quality of the design generally". I am not actually trying to make a defense here or say that a Fighter would be a better choice to fight a Stone Golem. The Nat 20 thing I did not know. I thought it was like 3.5 and 4e in which you could always pass a saving throw with a 20. I read it was that way on attack rolls so I assumed it was the same on saving throws. For some reason I thought the Stone Golem had a similar immune system to a Clay Golem. Which is pretty much immune to any damage Cantrips can do which is why I dismissed the flying tactic at first. (I was wrong there.)
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Sep 3, 2014 22:52
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Invisibility doesn't make you harder to detect? Isn't that the whole point?
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Sep 3, 2014 22:54
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LazyAngel posted:See Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archives where this, in fact the case; most food is wheat transmuted from stone, and most major buildings are built in wood then petrified. Both conjuring food out of nowhere and turning other crap into food seem like it would have a few problems. If you're eating food conjured by magic, what happens after you digest it? If conjured magical food is real enough that it really benefits your body and turns into real poo poo when you're done with it, aren't you slowly accumulating extra mass on the planet? What happens after a few centuries of this? Are you stealing this mass from somewhere else, and will some extraplanar types eventually show up wondering where all their stuff went? If conjured magical food isn't real and thus you don't actually produce any waste matter, how does it affect your body? Do you even gain any mass at all? If people live entirely on conjured magical food, how will that affect their growth and development? Will their bodies be made almost entirely out of magic? If so, how will that affect how they use magic, and will that change magic's effect on them? If you're turning stuff into food then matter may be conserved, but the question is what happens to the stuff you turned into food? While we may have a shitload of stones of incredibly varying types lying around, it's not exactly renewable on a human timescale and after a few centuries/millennia you might be dealing with increasing scarcity after much of the world's stone reserves have been consumed- just look at the problems we've had over oil. Do you have to deal with scarcity by deciding what stones should be prioritized for food vs. what need to be used for other purposes? Do you eventually have to start turning other crap into food? Does eating magically altered rocks affect your growth and development? Does it affect how you interact with magic (especially if there are dispel abilities)? Given that magic might also be loving with the world by introducing new energy into the system, I wonder how the world will look after a few centuries of dudes throwing fireballs around, or just using magic to haul things around. Magic is weird.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:00
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MonsterEnvy posted:The Nat 20 thing I did not know. I thought it was like 3.5 and 4e in which you could always pass a saving throw with a 20. I read it was that way on attack rolls so I assumed it was the same on saving throws.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:00
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MonsterEnvy posted:The Nat 20 thing I did not know. I thought it was like 3.5 and 4e in which you could always pass a saving throw with a 20. I read it was that way on attack rolls so I assumed it was the same on saving throws. I mean this in the most helpful sense possible: please make less assumptions about the rules and read up on them. It will make discussions easier for everybody involved.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:03
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But then, in 4e, what 5e calls saving throws were a different sort of attack roll. Attacker always rolls is just... more straightforward.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:03
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5E's target audience is apparently nostalgic nerds who are functionally illiterate.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:05
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MonsterEnvy, if you're going to try and defend Next from any and all criticism would you at least mind learning the rules?
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Sep 3, 2014 23:07
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OctoberCountry posted:MonsterEnvy, if you're going to try and defend Next from any and all criticism would you at least mind learning the rules? As I mentioned I was not trying to defend everything. I was looking at the wrong stat block for a monster so I thought it was harder to destroy then it actually is. Also I bet quite a few of you thought a natural 20 on a saving throw auto suceeded until now.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:11
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LightWarden posted:Both conjuring food out of nowhere and turning other crap into food seem like it would have a few problems. Create "Transmute Dook to Food" spell, keep it a secret, be crowned King of the World
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Sep 3, 2014 23:13
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MonsterEnvy posted:Also I bet quite a few of you thought a natural 20 on a saving throw auto suceeded until now. 
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Sep 3, 2014 23:23
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Really Pants posted:Create "Transmute Dook to Food" spell, keep it a secret, be crowned King of the World SOYLENT GREEN IS NERDS 
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Sep 3, 2014 23:28
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MonsterEnvy posted:Also I bet quite a few of you thought a natural 20 on a saving throw auto suceeded until now. No. Most people making assertions about specific rules have actually read and remembered the book, or else they check the book first. You're wrong about the way 4e saves work too. MonsterEnvy posted:Invisibility in this game does not actually make you any harder to detect. What does the spell do then? What does the word "invisible" mean to you? What about the word "detect"? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 23:38
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OctoberCountry posted:MonsterEnvy, if you're going to try and defend Next from any and all criticism would you at least mind learning the rules? Also if he could learn other punctuation marks aside from the period that'd be loving swell.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:38
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MonsterEnvy posted:Invisibility in this game does not actually make you any harder to detect. So you don't know the rules (yet again) and you're not trying to defend them. What was the purpose of your post?
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Sep 3, 2014 23:50
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Cainer posted:Problem is I don't know how to balance that. We just had an entire edition that did this. This is what's frustrating about the balance argument. Maybe you don't like the way 4e did balance, that's fine, but if nothing else it is proof that balance is possible. It is in fact a doable thing, a realistic goal for a game designer to have.
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Sep 3, 2014 23:50
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A huge hurdle to balance is that core game mechanics are keyed to one class's niche. Implement keywords and conditions. Consider a hypothetical Senseless condition that fucks up a creature's movement and reactions. D&D has traditionally defined rules in terms of "...as per Senseless spell" and that's poo poo. Senseless needs to be a core rule condition, so no-imagination-having players can get their heads out of ~Magic~ and understand it as a game term. Once you do that, suddently it's not magical when a fighter's crit renders a monster Senseless. Umberhulks can get a gaze attack that does damage and inflicts it. Wizards get a spell that inflicts it. But when you frame everything around spells, it favors a flawed reading of the game. The fighter isn't dazing a guy with his morningstar, he's "Getting wizard spells!" and it's suddenly hard to imagine, breaks versimiliututdes, impossible IRL, unrealistic, etc etc 
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Sep 4, 2014 00:05
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The clearest example of this I have ever seen is with Angels and the Tongues spell. In 4th edition Angels speak Supernal the language of gods from which all others languages are derived and thus can make themselves understood by sentient creature unless they chose not to. In 3ed edition Angels are described as being able to speak as if using the tongues spell. When your describing your supernatural abilities based on what spell they copy, instead of describing your spells based on what supernatural ability they emulate, something has gone horribly wrong. edit: The wizards spell book should not be the base building block of the universe from which all other magical abilities are derived. Vorpal Cat fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 00:25
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I hope 6E ends up getting rid of Fighters and Rogues, and mashes them into the one true non-magic class. Maybe we could hear less about THE CASTORS if the guy who doesn't use any supernatural abilities is the explicit exception to the rest of the heroic characters. The 3.5E Warblade should be the one true martial character, anyway.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:27
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Yeah, it's really weird to think that martial classes are split into things like, this guy hits really well, and this guy sneaks really well, and this guy survives really well and then the wizard is like, well, he casts spells, so what do you want him to do?
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Sep 4, 2014 00:40
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Infinite Karma posted:I hope 6E ends up getting rid of Fighters and Rogues, and mashes them into the one true non-magic class. Maybe we could hear less about THE CASTORS if the guy who doesn't use any supernatural abilities is the explicit exception to the rest of the heroic characters. The 3.5E Warblade should be the one true martial character, anyway. To me it's difficult to tell (looking at 3E -> 3.5E -> 5E, because 4E is verboten) what the progression is in terms of general D&D design. 5E is sort of a rules-light angle...but more by virtue of rules being absent rather than abstracted. I can't imagine what direction 6E would go in.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:47
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dichloroisocyanuric posted:I would like it to be organized by spell school, maybe with the master list (that shows each class -> spell correspondence) listing the school as well so it's easier to find. I guess you could also split that up into levels. And then alphabetically from there. Really, a really well laid out master list with school, level, and page would mean the spells could be listed in random order and it would still be a cinch to find what you're looking for. The interesting thing about that is that the Wizard class actually calls out the eight schools of magic as, basically, a theory/artificial construct used by some, not even all, wizards. If anything, the spell list shouldn't contain spell schools at all, and school-related class features should be stuff like "when you cast a spell that deals energy damage" rather than "when you cast an evocation spell".
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Sep 4, 2014 00:58
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I just figured they'd be sorted alphabetically by spell level, seeing as how the beginning of the spell list already did that.
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