|
I don't care about Anita Sarkeesian's videos because of the two I've seen they are all comprised of soft-ball observations mixed with terrible sensationalism. She deliberately misrepresents the content of the games she reviews and than hides behind her basic arguments as if one justifies the other. She doesn't play games and she lies straight-up about the games she talks about. I don't doubt she receives harassment from "the internet" but this stuff is hardly unique to her or women in general, as has been pointed out over a dozen times, huge numbers of people involved in games have been harassed over a huge variety of issues. That doesn't prove anything except that the internet has alot of rude people on it, go figure. I can't speak for anyone else but if instead of preaching down to the unwashed masses she pitched her time and resources behind getting games made that have good writing and story-telling I wouldn't have any problem with her. I'd actually support her kickstarter if it was about creating, say, a cool adventure game spin-off with a badass heroine instead of a literal scam. Zoe Quinn is a mean person who makes bad games. She's actively hurting women in games, any sexist trope you could bring out about women in industry in general (Shrewish to other women, uses sex to get ahead, is bad at her 'job' and is only there because of her gender) is literally true about her. The fact that she gets on this high horse about feminism just makes it all the more unbearable. The only reason she has the support of a "side" of the gaming community is because she fits a narrative that they really want to be true.
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 22:53 |
|
|
Goffer posted:they say 'this can be bad because study X, Y, Z show that objectification of women in games causes men to objectify women and treat them as lesser people IRL while at the same time affect gamer women's self esteem, self worth and etc'. What videos have you been watching? What are those studies, pray tell?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:06
|
|
|
In fact, to go on further, it seems that the biggest problem with all of this is that there IS no meaningful dialog. At all. And there hasn't been for some time. All of the voices of feminism in this debate have been preaching to their respective choirs. If we're counting that above series of quotes by Leigh Alexander, it seems that a lot of these prominent voices for equality are actually slightly mentally ill, which sums up Tumblr very nicely. But at no point do any social justice warriors actually engage in dialog with the people whom they claim to want to change the minds of. This happens everywhere too--even on this own site, in the subforums where such things are more sincerely discussed, you get an attitude of "we are right and you are wrong" and this attitude is met in kind by a similarly stubborn attitude of "no, you're wrong, gently caress off!" and both sides just yell past each other. Nobody is able to meaningfully criticize anyone in this situation without being labeled something by their respective camps, and it's the labeling that's really key. Sarkeesian labels entire tropes as sexist, entire games as sexist, for failing to adhere to concepts that she herself must realize and understand that aren't universally known. Not everybody has taken a women's studies course, not everybody has a thorough knowledge of literature when they write a story, especially for a game. Nintendo wasn't thinking of women's liberation when they designed Princess Peach's character, they were thinking of "how can we visually represent a princess with 4 colors and 8-bits?". There's no benefit of the doubt given, and there's a lot of condemnation involved. But Sarkeesian is mild compared to Quinn or any of these other "Gamers are dead" pundits (I refuse to call them journalists anymore). These are extremists who want to "win". This isn't about change or representation--not ultimately, because change and representation ARE happening. For every Senran Kaguran, you've got Shovel Knight, which has a very prominent female character who is even a damsel in distress, but isn't weakened or diminished by it in any capacity, and in fact her relationship--an equal relationship--with the male protagonist is the emotional core of the whole story. Princess Zelda has taken on a much more assertive role in all of her games, and the upcoming Hyrule Warriors features basically two versions of her with unique abilities and combat skills. Other M aside, Metroid Prime demonstrated a fantastic version of Samus Aran who kicks butt with cool poise. Assassin's Creed 4 has actual historical female characters fighting alongside you, and the Vita version has a female Assassin who is just as skilled as her counterparts. Fighting games have always had a pretty good line-up of female characters who are balanced alongside the male ones. Bayonetta, for all the critique it gets, features not only a female main character who is incredibly skilled and powerful, but an entire feminine universe, with the creator God actually being a giant woman, and all of the principle heroes being women while the primary antagonist--besides the aforementioned girl God--is a man (and you kick the poo poo out of him in stylish fashion). Hell, another Platinum game, Okami, has a female protagonist whose gender is largely inconsequential, which seems to be exactly what somebody striving for equality would want. Silent Hill 3 has both the protagonist and antagonist be female, and it features Sarkeesian's much hated "mystical pregnancy" in a manner both horrific and I think very effective both to the symbolism of the narrative and the nature of the plot itself. Yeah, there's more that can be done. It's hard to think of a lot of positive examples of a gay character in games--Jun from Persona 2 is the first to spring to my mind, but I never played much Bioware poo poo, so maybe that can be cited. But the fact is is that there isn't a misogynistic conspiracy at work here just as much as there isn't an insane feminism conspiracy at work--there are instances of progressive though and instances of regressive thought and these instances go both ways. You would not have the enormous backlash against this SJW movement going on right now if it was just "white boys upset they aren't being catered to" which has to be the most ridiculous allegation at the heart of this. I have never played a game because it pandered to me, I play games because they are fun. I play games because they challenge me. It can't continue like this. Something has to give, and neither side is going to "win" because the whole conflict is completely nebulous. There's nothing TO win. Games need to be made by everyone, for everyone, and that is why this is a big deal--because this whole issue is about Indie game development. This is ABOUT the little guy making something new and edgy and strange, something challenging and unique, unburdened by demographics and focus-testing and big budget nightmares. And this indie games circle has been badly hurt by the actions of--not giant corporate overlords, but from within, sabotaged by the same people who claim to be working TO represent the unrepresented, who claim to be beyond criticism and beyond reproach and so act accordingly, without regard for anyone but themselves, and in shallow self-interest have turned Twitter into a minefield of lunatic frenzy with such fanatacism that it boggles the mind. Yet the silver lining to this, if there can be one, is that finally--loving goddamn finally--there's a dialog happening. Not a lecture. Not Lindy West saying rape culture thrives in stand-up comedy clubs or Zoe Quinn saying that video games are the reason she's homeless. It's a dialog. A shouting match, at present, but god willing, finally, maybe just loving finally, when all the dust settles, people can sit the gently caress down and just talk this poo poo over like loving adults.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:08
|
|
|
Whatever happened to that game that got crowdfunded where the protagonists were not just trans but some sort of super trans.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:09
|
|
|
Okay I'm on board, how do we take videogames BACK from these feminists? I just wnt to see a boob on my video game and that hasn't been possible since 1995.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:10
|
|
|
Deki posted:Whatever happened to that game that got crowdfunded where the protagonists were not just trans but some sort of super trans. Noone involved in it was actually skilled in anything so it went nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:10
|
|
|
KoldPT posted:cuck and now, the plot TWISTS
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:13
|
|
|
THE PENETRATOR posted:because ur raping women everywhere, by owning a computer fund my new tech kickstarter for a new alternative to usb I call womynwire, where you control the hole while the plug is attached to the machine we don't know how it'll work yet but one of our stretch goals is to hire someone who can actually design the connectors
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:14
|
|
|
KoldPT posted:cuck #GamerGateGhazi
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:14
|
|
|
I wish I was one of the people wise enough to scam /v/ whenever this kind of e drama pops up
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:14
|
|
|
fight nepotism with nepotism
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:14
|
|
|
rizuhbull posted:I'm lead to believe it doesn't sell. I would think most publishers would force developers to tailor their games to what sells. I think that's a pretty baseless argument and mostly comes down to "well the publishers keep doing it, and they've got a lot of money, so they're probably right" (not that that's what I think you're saying). Publishers could just be relying on some dumbass exec's old school wisdom, bad focus testing, or whatever since it's not like they've tried selling the same game in a "lovely to women" and a "not lovely to women" form. I'm willing to bet that games where you swapped the big titty bitches for decent characters would sell just as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:15
|
|
|
man i can't trust the indie games scene and i also can't trust people who spend all day being really angry at the idea of feminists controlling the indie game scene? Who can I believe in? This is why we need Superman, now more than ever. But the movies were STUPID! AUGH it's so unfair.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:16
|
|
|
GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:I think that's a pretty baseless argument and mostly comes down to "well the publishers keep doing it, and they've got a lot of money, so they're probably right" (not that that's what I think you're saying). Publishers could just be relying on some dumbass exec's old school wisdom, bad focus testing, or whatever since it's not like they've tried selling the same game in a "lovely to women" and a "not lovely to women" form. I'm willing to bet that everything else being equal, games with women other than big titty strippers or gratuitous rear end shots on the cover art would sell just as well. the new tomb raider was p much this (at least compared to previous tomb raider games) and it sold really well so yeah, its mostly just producers being retarded and developers on average being troglodytes
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:16
|
|
|
GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:I think that's a pretty baseless argument and mostly comes down to "well the publishers keep doing it, and they've got a lot of money, so they're probably right" (not that that's what I think you're saying). Publishers could just be relying on some dumbass exec's old school wisdom, bad focus testing, or whatever since it's not like they've tried selling the same game in a "lovely to women" and a "not lovely to women" form. I'm willing to bet that everything else being equal, games with women other than big titty strippers or gratuitous rear end shots on the cover art would sell just as well. That's why there are so many super-successful ugly movie stars and musicians. Oh wait no sex sells big using any medium.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:17
|
|
|
KoldPT posted:cuck I can't wait to see where this goes
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:17
|
|
|
In times of gaming crisis I always put faith in Suzuki-san. Because he still believes he can get a Shenmue sequel. Bless his heart.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:18
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:the new tomb raider was p much this (at least compared to previous tomb raider games) and it sold really well The only difference between the old Tomb Raider and the new one is boob size. They are both easily argued as super-hot, just in different ways.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:the new tomb raider was p much this (at least compared to previous tomb raider games) and it sold really well Wasn't there a huge poo poo fit thrown about the new Tomb Raider game before it was even released? I don't see how the Tomb Raider reboot really owes anything to 'feminism', its basically just keeping up with the advances made in the action-adventure genre. (Except her tit size, loving LOL) EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Sep 4, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
35,000. Fuckin lawyers
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
natetimm posted:That's why there are so many super-successful ugly movie stars and musicians. Oh wait no sex sells big using any medium. I dunno dude I don't think that's even true for a cross section of super successful games. You've got the GTA series but you also have Gears of War, Halo (pre-digital boob job), Civilization and The Sims.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:20
|
|
|
KoldPT posted:cuck "Lawers Against Gaming Corrpution" Indiegogo page posted:Should there not be enough evidence to warrant legal action, the remaining funds will go into an account and utilized as retainer fees
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:21
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Wasn't there a huge poo poo fit thrown about the new Tomb Raider game before it was even released? most of the trailers and previews for the game were literally just a bunch of parts where she almost dies or gets injured stitched together, it looked more like a poorly rendered snuff film than a game luckily in the real game she's just lady rambo quote:I dunno dude I don't think that's even true for a cross section of super successful games. You've got the GTA series but you also have Gears of War, Halo (pre-digital boob job), Civilization and The Sims. halo sales actually nosedived after the crazy nude-cortana remodel (for reasons unrelated to that, but considering the quality of the conspiracy nut posts this is practically concrete evidence)
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:21
|
|
|
how do you even sue someone for being in bed with the people they're reporting on? like yeah it' skeezy and untrustworthy but it can't be illegal can it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:22
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:halo sales actually nosedived after the crazy nude-cortana remodel (for reasons unrelated to that, but considering the quality of the conspiracy nut posts this is practically concrete evidence) lol yeah i thought about mentioning that the halo game where they decided to make cortana near-nude was the one that did the worst in sales but like you said there were a billion other reasons it sucked
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:23
|
|
|
Neurolimal posted:most of the trailers and previews for the game were literally just a bunch of parts where she almost dies or gets injured stitched together, it looked more like a poorly rendered snuff film than a game People are triggered when the hero of an action-adventure game is killed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:I dunno dude I don't think that's even true for a cross section of super successful games. You've got the GTA series but you also have Gears of War, Halo (pre-digital boob job), Civilization and The Sims. Most if not all of the games with some sort of romantic plot elements consist of overly attractive characters playing the part on both sides. Just like most porn consists of attractive women/men and most romance novels have Fabio-looking dudes with washboard abs on the front. People want what they consider to be an attractive fantasy and it's been that way since caveman was scrawling big tit fertility idols on cave walls.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
Moldy Taxes posted:how do you even sue someone for being in bed with the people they're reporting on? like yeah it' skeezy and untrustworthy but it can't be illegal can it? I don't think it is and I think it's an enormous scam. It's also stupid and accomplishes nothing. Unless you are an indie developer who is suing the PR company that represented Quinn.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:24
|
|
|
why do the content of videogames matter that much? like does that poo poo even matter? how can people simultaneously say that being able to kill prostitutes in GTA is a terrible thing but that violence in videogames don't generate any violent attitudes? like, this is the reason why I give so little of a poo poo about what Anita says, doing a critique of the portrayal of women in games that were released like 5 years ago, and the time that they were released doesn't mean that the "issue" doesn't exist anymore, it means the game isn't topical anymore and thus there's nothing to do about it, it serves more to mask the broader problem of "videogames are mostly made by guys, for guys". poo poo isn't that what feminism is actually about?
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:I don't see how the Tomb Raider reboot really owes anything to 'feminism', its basically just keeping up with the advances made in the action-adventure genre. (Except her tit size, loving LOL) well, the woman who wrote it is friends with some game journalists, so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
The only reason they got rid of Lara Croft's tits is because they can now model her face to look like a perfect runway model and call it progressive. They made her tits big in previous installments because when she was invented the facial tech made her look like Aeon Flux had a stroke.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:27
|
|
|
We want more women in games but we can't have violence acted upon women, that misogynistic. *GETS SICK SNIPER KILL WITH BALLSHOT*
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:29
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:What videos have you been watching? What are those studies, pray tell? It's near the end of each video you probably isn't make it there due to insufferable nerd rage Phone posting otherwise I'd throw you some links
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:29
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:We want more women in games but we can't have violence acted upon women, that misogynistic. this was literally logic from a bunch of the guys in the minorities perspective gaming thread
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:30
|
|
|
Goffer posted:It's near the end of each video you probably isn't make it there due to insufferable nerd rage Than I think there's a case to be made that violence against men is normalized by games to a shocking degree and we need to change that as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:30
|
|
|
fnox posted:why do the content of videogames matter that much? like does that poo poo even matter? how can people simultaneously say that being able to kill prostitutes in GTA is a terrible thing but that violence in videogames don't generate any violent attitudes? I've heard women developers complaining about really rampant sexism and "boys club" attitudes in game developers before. In that specific instance, I said that--rather than take their stupid poo poo and work for them any longer, they should take to kickstarter and make a team and just start making their own games. I was screamed at by a bunch of trans people and told that my male opinion wasn't valuable and that I wasn't being supportive and it was...it was very ugly. So, maybe it's just easier to bitch about poo poo and have people who agree with you pay for it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:31
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:We want more women in games but we can't have violence acted upon women, that misogynistic. look dude, if the trolling attempt fails the first two times, just call it a day
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:31
|
|
|
I hope the guy's wifelawyer gets paid
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 22:53 |
|
|
natetimm posted:The only reason they got rid of Lara Croft's tits is because they can now model her face to look like a perfect runway model and call it progressive. They made her tits big in previous installments because when she was invented the facial tech made her look like Aeon Flux had a stroke. they made her tits big in the original game because someone put in a wrong variable for the model and dollar signs started pouring out of his eyes
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 00:32
|
|
