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Quora Guy posted:I'm THIS close to achieving my dream. Should I take this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? I love this because "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity" is my favorite bad with money justification for doing dumb things. The boundaries of once-in-a-lifetime are loose enough that you can apply it to a million things, most of which don't pass the "should I abandon all responsibility and do this thing at any cost?" test. I had a friend who tried to convince me to blow off my last semester of pharmacy school to join in on a 5 week backpacking trip to Europe, because it was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. A pretty awesome opportunity for sure, but if abandoning all personal responsibility is on the table, it's one that I can do pretty much whenever. Factor in the cost of delaying graduation by a year (~$115,000 earning potential lost, plus $17,000+ in tuition, who knows how much in lodging, etc., plus who knows if I could actually negotiate a return to clinical rotations after blowing off my previously-scheduled ones) and we're talking about a $150,000 five week backpacking vacation. I thought he was joking when he first proposed it, but he was really adamant. Because "once-in-a-lifetime" should have been sufficient reasoning to offset whatever was on the opposite side of the cost equation. There's probably a reason why you always hear "once-in-a-lifetime" as part of the sales pitch with MLM schemes - for lots of people, that's a synonym for "stop considering the multitude of reasons why this is a bad idea and just do it anyway." My other favorite bad with money justification is "following my dreams." This is essentially "I really wanted to do this thing, so I didn't consider any of the downsides" but phrased in a more positive way. A friend posted on Facebook that she was really worn down by all the negative people in her life and everyone who was telling her not to do something that she's dreamed about since she was a little girl. That dream that she's strived to fulfill for nearly her whole life? Buying a brand new Mitsubishi Eclipse. She's a college dropout working as a part-time waitress and struggling to make her expenses each month, but the only thing that matters is that she's following her dream of securing double digit financing for a car while having no money to put down. The people who were telling her to be reasonable and maybe consider a cheaper/used option were just naysayers who were trying to stop her from reaching for the stars. And the next day, she posted a celebratory photo album of her brand new Mitsubishi Eclipse. Another friend who is enlisted military (total take-home ~$35,000/year) posted a few pictures of his recently-purchased Benz, saying how he had finally accomplished a dream of his. Two weeks later, he posted a status asking if anyone wanted to come to his place to hang out because he didn't have money for gas to go out. And if you do come over, BYOB because he can't restock his fridge until payday. But at least he's reached his dream of having a Benz in the driveway.
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Sep 3, 2014 17:49
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Nail Rat posted:seems the average for Senior Software Engineer in SF is about 110k. Jeffrey posted:Glassdoor says the average for the bay area is 107k for all people listed as "programmer", not just senior ones, but that still doesn't explain 105k for entry-level.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:21
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Jeffrey posted:If the number they cite for average starting salary is true(105k), then it's way better ROI than most colleges. Seems reasonable to me. I'd like to see a more detailed breakdown of how they got to that number. It's also WAAAY past the point of diminishing returns. I'd bet you get more out of a year of 5 to 10 hours a week.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:25
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Cicero posted:That sounds low to me, but maybe that's because I've been at higher-paying companies. Yeah, as I said before, I think they are telling the truth, but that does mean they are pretty exceptional either at picking who they accept, teaching, or both. The salaries are higher than I would have guessed but certainly within reason. I've known entry level programmers who have gotten offered 110-120 but it would be pretty hard to get together a group of students who all got high enough offers to average 105.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:26
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I have a good friend who did a coding boot camp in Seattle, and his experience was overall quite positive. His was, I think, 8 weeks for like 7-8 grand. He basically disappeared off the face of the earth during the boot camp because he was fully committed to it and it was his life 24/7 for the duration. But he got two job offers out of it at about 75-80k and some other interviews that he didn't follow up on. It's been about a year now and he could easily get hired at any number of web dev shops now for the same or more money. Considering he was working for like 13 bucks an hour beforehand I think he did pretty well. The thing with a lot of the boot camps is that they look for already technically oriented people that might come from less traditional backgrounds that can "easily" be molded into entry level web dev if given the push. In SF I absolutely believe 100k is entry level. I know a bunch of tech people down there, and I've interviewed at some companies there and done all the research and entry to mid level for someone with good tech chops is 100-150k for anywhere worth working. I ultimately stayed in Seattle since to give up the quality of life in Seattle at 100k I'd want almost 200k in SF.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:35
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VideoTapir posted:It's also WAAAY past the point of diminishing returns. I'd bet you get more out of a year of 5 to 10 hours a week.
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Sep 3, 2014 18:42
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Always get the special high intensity training.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:00
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The bootcamp idea makes more sense, to me, for programming than most other disciplines. To program you need to be able to twist your thought processes a bit. Keeping yourself in that mode makes it easier to go deeper into it. It always took be a little time to swap my brain fully between different programming paradigms. I'm guessing that's something that would have diminished with practice, but never completely go away.
Folly fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 19:14
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Folly posted:To program you need to be able to twist your through processes a bit. This is where I agree with the boot camp setup. Whenever I kick off a new programming project it always takes me a little bit of time to ramp up to it. Maybe it's something I put down awhile ago or a new language, but I have to orient my thinking to approach my problem effectively. That said, I am also skeptical of those numbers, but I also don't work in software development.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:18
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They could be fudging a bit by including benefits in the salary. So an 85k salary + benefits might be a "total compensation" of 105k. They also might have some rock star types that get absurd salaries to drag up the average that high while the median is in the five figures. Just a thought. e: Even if the numbers are being fudged to some degree, doing a 12 week course for a reasonable tuition and coming out on the other side with an upper five figure job is pretty drat good.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:18
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ranbo das posted:I mean, if they really do have a 99% hiring rate with an average starting salary of $100k+, then I'd say it would probably be worth it. Another software engineer jumping in on the "this sounds like horseshit" bandwagon. I'd like to know what percentage of those jobs happened with bubble VC money and lasted more than 3 months.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:36
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Barry posted:They could be fudging a bit by including benefits in the salary. So an 85k salary + benefits might be a "total compensation" of 105k. quote:They also might have some rock star types that get absurd salaries to drag up the average that high while the median is in the five figures. Just a thought.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:37
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ranbo das posted:I mean, if they really do have a 99% hiring rate with an average starting salary of $100k+, then I'd say it would probably be worth it. Yeeeah I have a double Sw.Eng / CS degree from a prestigious school and those numbers are bullshit. You can easily make six figures just a few years out once you prove you're worth it but there's no way you're gonna pull those numbers fresh from a single-semester program. No way in hell.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:45
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Necc0 posted:Yeeeah I have a double Sw.Eng / CS degree from a prestigious school and those numbers are bullshit. You can easily make six figures just a few years out once you prove you're worth it but there's no way you're gonna pull those numbers fresh from a single-semester program. No way in hell. (Double CS/electrical+computer engineering major here if the degree wagging counts for anything) Five years ago, at the height of the recession, high value, new graduate programmers from traditional schools(my school anyway) could pull 6 figures with no work experience at all. There's no reason not to believe the averages haven't gone up. It certainly seems plausible that a single-semester program(with at least double the workload of a traditional semester) could pull it off, especially one that is extremely focused compared to the relatively meandering courseload of a university.
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Sep 3, 2014 19:51
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Necc0 posted:Yeeeah I have a double Sw.Eng / CS degree from a prestigious school and those numbers are bullshit. You can easily make six figures just a few years out once you prove you're worth it but there's no way you're gonna pull those numbers fresh from a single-semester program. No way in hell. That's what these programs do to get rubes to sign up. I'm taking a CNA course with "guaranteed job placement" and projected earnings of $20 an hour. Chicago has a comparatively high pay average for hospital personnel, but I don't think any hospital will pay that much for a one semester trained employee. You can't go in expecting to make what they tell you day one on the job. Hell, the only reason I am taking it through the company I am is because I know the director of the tech float pool at my hospital and I can get an easy transfer and a $4 pay raise once I'm certified
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Sep 3, 2014 20:29
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This is a fun thread, people just saying "this is bullshit" without any numbers or data to back it up. BFC!
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Sep 3, 2014 20:58
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Radbot posted:This is a fun thread, people just saying "this is bullshit" without any numbers or data to back it up. BFC! If major universities are fudging placement numbers, its practically guaranteed that an extremely expensive non-degree course is fudging even more.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:10
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Radbot posted:This is a fun thread, people just saying "this is bullshit" without any numbers or data to back it up. BFC! The burden of proof is on the party claiming a 105k starting salary for a 12 week course is 99% guaranteed, IMO  .
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Sep 3, 2014 21:20
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Salary sources: Median salary for a developer in San Francisco - 90K http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,32.htm Median salary for a software engineer in San Francisco - 100K http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/san-francisco-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,13_IM759_KO14,31.htm Certainly a very expensive 12 week training course on programming will get you at least the median salary for a field with 0 actual experience! No bullshittin'. Numbers aside, I think the term Software Engineer is hilarious. It's like programmers didn't think their titles were fancy enough. You're not an engineer.
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Sep 3, 2014 21:20
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Obviously it's not hard to find people to shill for you but you'd think they'd have at least one negative review here http://www.quora.com/Reviews-of-Hack-Reactor if it were bunk. Also this other glassdoor page http://www.glassdoor.com/blog/15-tech-companies-software-engineer-salary-revealed-glassdoor-report/ says the mean (not median) is ~108k, not 100k. That's also showing base salary while Hack Reactor almost certainly is including bonuses and stock grants, which makes the number seem pretty reasonable in my mind.
Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 21:25
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Nail Rat posted:The burden of proof is on the party claiming a 105k starting salary for a 12 week course is 99% guaranteed, IMO Inept posted:Salary sources: Anyway, 100k compensation for a junior engineer in SF is not unusual at all. edit: while Glassdoor is generally accurate, you have to factor in that they're including salaries for the last several years, and during that time there's been a decent sized run up in salaries for software engineers in the bay area. Cicero fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 3, 2014 |
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Sep 3, 2014 21:31
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Radbot posted:This is a fun thread, people just saying "this is bullshit" without any numbers or data to back it up. BFC! The only direct evidence is one post saying they they had a flakey hack reactor graduate quit his job. I don't really see an issue if they train people to fill job positions. If all you need is a lovely coder they don't need a CS degree. I have more of an issue of the guy planning to run off with $21k borrowed from his cousin who has been helping him. Truly a dick.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:38
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Devian666 posted:The only direct evidence is one post saying they they had a flakey hack reactor graduate quit his job. He didn't say hack reactor, just someone from a coding bootcamp. Regardless of the hack reactor's honesty, their are all sorts of "me-too" coding bootcamps that are not.
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Sep 3, 2014 22:41
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Is Software Engineering not considered Real Engineering anymore? 
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Sep 3, 2014 22:50
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Gorman Thomas posted:Is Software Engineering not considered Real Engineering anymore? Was it ever?
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Sep 3, 2014 23:12
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Devian666 posted:The only direct evidence is one post saying they they had a flakey hack reactor graduate quit his job. I don't really see an issue if they train people to fill job positions. If all you need is a lovely coder they don't need a CS degree. Yes. After screwing off like 4 times with someone else bailing him out each time, he said, "I totally understand the morality of this situation." Then he asked for someone to explain why it was wrong to defraud his family. The best voted answer was the one that explained why defrauding his family would harm him personally, which is probably the only way to get through to that guy. The whole thing is a loving comedy of moral turpitude.
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Sep 4, 2014 00:42
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Gorman Thomas posted:Is Software Engineering not considered Real Engineering anymore? You don't drive the train with your laptop, nor can you reasonably shovel your laptop into the engine's boiler, so yeah I guess programmers can't be called engineers.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:20
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Volmarias posted:You don't drive the train with your laptop, nor can you reasonably shovel your laptop into the engine's boiler, so yeah I guess programmers can't be called engineers. I'm an engineer but I rarely deal with trains. Except that I'm just off the phone to a client where we are turning train carriages into a restaurant.
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Sep 4, 2014 01:48
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oh my god who cares edit: about debunking salary talk. train restaurants are great.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:08
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Less arguin, more storyin. Here's a contribution. A few years ago, I paid a utility bill twice (or was somehow charged twice) and developed a credit on the account. The city's billing system was crap, and the next month the bill said "PLEASE PAY $XX.XX" even though that amount was not actually due - it was the amount of credit I had. I'd forgotten about the previous double payment and paid it anyway. The next month, same thing happened, the amount "due" was slightly higher than I was accustomed to paying but I thought it was just the poor efficiency of the house. After probably four months, I ended up with a credit of about $600 before I finally sat down and got to the bottom of it. After a lengthy phone call with the city utility, it was finally explained to me that a capital letter "C" printed somewhere vaguely near the amount "due" was to indicate the amount was actually a credit and not to pay it. So, their system was smart enough to realize that I had a credit and print the letter "C" but dumb enough to still print "PLEASE PAY $XX.XX". Anyway I felt retarded but I mean come on.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:27
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Jeffrey posted:That's not what he did though, and if he can actually program and got a reasonable job offer then dropping out of school was probably the right choice. Especially if that $21,000 was for just one semester's tuition as the post seemed to imply. Unless he was going to medical or law school, he really dodged a bullet there.
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Sep 4, 2014 02:41
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Gorman Thomas posted:Is Software Engineering not considered Real Engineering anymore? Ask the self-driving cars that are making their debut.
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Sep 4, 2014 04:36
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Gorman Thomas posted:Is Software Engineering not considered Real Engineering anymore? Is the program ABET accredited? Y/N Cicero posted:Anyway, 100k compensation for a junior engineer in SF is not unusual at all. Junior != entry level. Hope this helps. Necc0 fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Sep 4, 2014 |
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Sep 4, 2014 16:31
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Necc0 posted:Is the program ABET accredited? Y/N Can you get your PE stamp? Y/N
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Sep 4, 2014 16:36
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Necc0 posted:Is the program ABET accredited? Y/N Uhh he can mean whatever he wants when he uses the word, he wasn't reading that off of an article. Entry level engineers are regularly referred to as junior even if categories aren't precisely the same.
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Sep 4, 2014 16:38
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Delta-Wye posted:Can you get your PE stamp? Y/N Yes
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Sep 4, 2014 17:01
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While I was househunting over the past few months, I met about 5 people (out of about 20 spaces visited total) that were either renting out space in their houses or forced to rent themselves because they bought a house with their bf/gf and the relationship fell apart. So, uh, don't do that until you're 100% in it for the long haul, is what I've learned.
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Sep 4, 2014 17:24
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Necc0 posted:Junior != entry level. Hope this helps.
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Sep 4, 2014 17:59
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Delta-Wye posted:Can you get your PE stamp? Y/N Yes but lol if you do without being forced to by your company.
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Sep 4, 2014 18:03
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I have a friend of a friend who got an entry level software job at Zynga at 110k/yr at age 21. A month after closing on a condo in SF last year those massive layoffs happened and he lost his job. He got a new job shortly after for a little less money but maaaan that could have gone south real fast.
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Sep 4, 2014 18:07
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