|
What if Rabum Alul is not a being but a philosophy?
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2014 21:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:01 |
|
|
Bell_ posted:What if Rabum Alul is not a being but a philosophy? I really hope Rabum Alul isn't something that can be punched in the space-nuts. Also if someone wants to edit that preview with Gob Bluth saying "I've made a huge mistake" that would be, well, just peachy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2014 22:00
|
|
|
Diet Poison posted:I really hope Rabum Alul isn't something that can be punched in the space-nuts.  if you think Captain America isn't going to punch something very hard by the end of this.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
I think that with a line of dialogue, Hickman could have humanized the Illuminati a bit. Just throw in there that alongside their egos, and their hubris, and their stubbornness, not telling everyone else about the incursions is a very human thing. If you're preparing to do the unthinkable, and everyone's telling you it won't work, then having 'well, maybe someone else can think of something if we fail' gives you hope. Whereas if you tell everyone, and everyone's got nothing to offer, then you KNOW you're hosed. There's no hope, nothing to keep you going.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2014 22:07
|
|
|
Interesting hint there that Black Swan is the one holding the detonator and not Namor. Perhaps there is hope for the man yet.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2014 22:19
|
|
|
Happy Noodle Boy posted:
He's old as poo poo for some incredibly stupid reason, he'd throw a hip.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2014 22:26
|
|
|
Diet Poison posted:Cap's "There's GOT to be a better way!" ideal only leads to two options on a strict timeline And on that day, Dr. Strange mindwiped Captain America and kicked him out of the group so they could go from being a Who cover band to a Soundgarden cover band. Rogers really, really hated their rendition of "Blow Up the Outside World."
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2014 22:36
|
|
|
Cap's not really acting on limited information. He already knows the other methods fail and that if this one does too there's a drat time loop to try again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2014 04:12
|
|
|
So, at this point, the candidates for Rabum Alal seem to be: the newborn Galactus from the egg in Hickman's FF run (which I just finished re-reading, and dear god do there seem to be a lot of things that are carrying over to his Avengers/NA run), or something like Apocalypse/The Beyonder. Even though my gut tells me it's going to end up being like what we were shown with the Mapmakers and AIM, and given where they're going with him, it's going to be either future Namor/Namor from another universe..or hell, given that Hickman likes to write 'complete' stories and plans things out in advance in detail..we haven't seen Thane lately. Fathers and sons is an overarching theme Hickman likes. Also, if Hickman's reading this: i'd like the Council of Dooms to come back, please. We Got Us A Bread fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Aug 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
Martinpale posted:Also, if Hickman's reading this: i'd like the Council of Dooms to come back, please. That would require the universe of Doom where all the lobotomized Dooms ended to come back. Wait... a universe created by Doom. I think I figured out who Rabum Alal is. I still have my money on a Galactus seed event. It could also be a good way to bring back 616 Galactus back into our universe somehow.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2014 00:31
|
|
|
We already saw Doom leading an all Doom universe and it led to the guy GTFOin if I recall.
|
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2014 05:03
|
|
|
^burtle posted:We already saw Doom leading an all Doom universe and it led to the guy GTFOin if I recall. Were all the Dooms there? I remember Doom making his own universe at the end with the leftover gauntlets, then his creations turning on him and having to get rescued by Future Val and Reed, but I can't seem to recall anything about what happened with the Basement of Dooms. e: Oh yeah, never mind, they all sacrificed themselves to save 616 Doom at the end. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Aug 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Aug 30, 2014 07:38
|
|
|
A cross-post from a discussion on the Original Sin thread.Senor Candle posted:I would say most series wouldn't make much sense if you only read every third issue of a story line. I'll stop derailing here but I'd be happy to yell at you all more about this if you want to take it to the Avengers thread. The difference with the Infinity Crossover, is in a normal crossover series, the tie in issues by and large make sense on their own. Like, if you take the Thunderbolts Infinity tie ins, okay you don't know why New York is being invaded by aliens. But the story it tells, makes sense. The New Avenger's issues that tie into Infinity are almost completely unreadable without looking at Infinity (the series.).
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 20:30
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:A cross-post from a discussion on the Original Sin thread. Yes that's why I wouldn't call them "tie-ins" in the same sense that the Thunderbolts issues are. They are explicit chapters of Infinity.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 20:38
|
|
|
I kinda feel like Infinity shouldn't really have been marketed as a standalone event, because it absolutely was not. More accurately, they should have just added extra issues of Avengers and NA to the shipping schedule and had the whole thing numbered in a banner or something. Avengers and NA are vital to following Infinity and Infinity is vital to understanding the Avengers and NA issues. If other creators wanted to tie in on their books, then they would still be free to do so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 20:39
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:A cross-post from a discussion on the Original Sin thread. The Thunderbolts issues are true tie-ins in the sense most are familiar with. Periphery of the event, non-essential, and more focused on how the event affects the normal characters of the series. The New Avengers (and Avengers) Infinity issues are not tie-ins - they are essential parts of the story. Infinity doesn't make much sense without them, and they don't make much sense without Infinity. The chart Hickman included in every issue of the three series in question (Infinity, Avengers, New Avengers) shows the reading order and emphasizes the importance of the A/NA issues. Is it unusual? Yes. But I think it was a way to say that Infinity is integral to Avengers / New Avengers - you can't read those series and skip it, it is a chapter of that larger story that Marvel turned into an "event." The only way to avoid the confusion would be to have every chapter of Infinity be an issue of either Avengers or New Avengers (and that would not spur sales for Marvel the way flashy 6-issue limited series do) or put Avengers / New Avengers on hold for however many months and make Infinity an 18-issue series or something (perhaps more confusing, and certainly stretching the limits of how long event books should be). Neo_Reloaded fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 4, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 20:41
|
|
|
No I get all that. I just remember how, around the time that Infinity came out, people were wondering what it would be like to try and follow the story in Infinity without reading Avengers or New Avengers. Last week I went back to re-read New Avengers, and since I bought all of it digitally I went and re-downloaded all the issues and read them. And (as I was saying in the Original Sin thread) the New Avenger's issues make no sense on their own. Like, if you are just trying to read the Incursion storyline, you miss a lot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 21:02
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:No I get all that. I just remember how, around the time that Infinity came out, people were wondering what it would be like to try and follow the story in Infinity without reading Avengers or New Avengers. No one is arguing against that. I honestly think it's really dumb that Marvel put out a collection of NA with just 7-12 in it. http://www.amazon.com/New-Avengers-Volume-Infinity-Marvel/dp/0785168370 I feel like they boned up collecting his FF/F4 in trades as well so I'm hoping they do something really cool with the Omnis for his Avengers. Senor Candle fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Sep 4, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 21:06
|
|
|
The Question IRL posted:No I get all that. I just remember how, around the time that Infinity came out, people were wondering what it would be like to try and follow the story in Infinity without reading Avengers or New Avengers. My friend did this and said he had no idea what was going on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 21:29
|
|
|
Senor Candle posted:No one is arguing against that. I honestly think it's really dumb that Marvel put out a collection of NA with just 7-12 in it. http://www.amazon.com/New-Avengers-Volume-Infinity-Marvel/dp/0785168370 Honestly, Avengers / New Avengers omnibuses or OSHC shouldn't feature what is covered in the Infinity omni at all. I could see an omni with both series featured sequentially, then the next volume you're supposed to read is the Infinity omni.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 21:44
|
|
|
I completely disagree. OSHC aren't printed the same way as omnis are.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 21:55
|
|
|
Stuff like Uncanny X-Men or X-Force was collected as OSHCs and when there crossovers like Utopia X or Messiah War, the issues weren't in the series OSHCs, they were in dedicated crossover volumes. That's really my only point here: whether they go the omni or OSHC route, it would be weird to overlap with the existing Infinity omni. Particularly considering the core Infinity books have a sequence you need to follow, I don't see them splitting the issues over various OSHCs like they did with the trades. Given that New Avengers has 6 issues before Infinity, I really don't see it releasing in OSHC form anyway.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 22:13
|
|
|
PelvicNerve posted:Stuff like Uncanny X-Men or X-Force was collected as OSHCs and when there crossovers like Utopia X or Messiah War, the issues weren't in the series OSHCs, they were in dedicated crossover volumes. That's really my only point here: whether they go the omni or OSHC route, it would be weird to overlap with the existing Infinity omni. Particularly considering the core Infinity books have a sequence you need to follow, I don't see them splitting the issues over various OSHCs like they did with the trades. There is no existing Infinity Omni. It is an OSHC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 22:27
|
|
|
Point taken, that was a shortcut on my part calling it an omni because it's 600+ pages.
|
|
#
?
Sep 4, 2014 23:18
|
|
|
Gatts posted:Cap himself might not be as useful in solving the problem but he is the solution to hopelessness. The Great Society had 2 victories though at great expense to themselves. Cap is hope and he is the focus and the right mentality. The Illuminati had a pessimistic defeatist realistic vision from the get go and we're all but openly willing to down a dark path early. I'm not getting this logic, and several people have brought it up - The illuminati has had the EXACT SAME VICTORIES as the Great Society. Victory 1. Infinity Gauntlet/Imagination Box or whateverthefuck is used to undo a single incursion. Infinity Gauntlet/box breaks. Victory 2. It's already a dead world, the Mapmakers killed it. The Great Society blows up the other earth, just like the Illuminati did. Victory 3. "We don't talk about that" - presumably this was someone (possibly a villain) blowing up a populated planet. If it was an actual solution they would either share it, or be ready to use it again, or both. I'm not seeing how the HOPE of the Great Society helped at all here. Hell, the Great Society got it off worse - the Illuminati can blow up Mapmaker worlds with a bomb nice and clean, while Norn had to use super awful terrible bad black magic to sacrifice his future lives just to blow up a dead world. If the Illuminati hadn't shown up there, the Great Society certainly didn't have a plan in mind to fix anything in the extremely short time they had left. Both worlds would have died. Who knows, maybe they should have told more people in the beginning, but like many people have said that had just as much chance of backfiring - there's a whole universe of people who would rather destroy earth than let the near-infinite number of people alive in the entire universe die. Not every problem in the universe is going to have an option that lets everyone get out with squeaky-clean morality and zero blood on their hands, and while sure the illuminati may have done things the wrong way, I'm not sure that Cap's kneejerk reaction to let an essentially infinite number of people die rather than compromise his ideals is really an alternative. It'd be one thing if anyone had some sort of even far-fetched idea that was an alternative, but not only did he not, there's an infinite number of universes that has probably tried virtually every possible method of stopping an incursion - this should be a clue that you can't just pull a magic solution out of your rear end in 8 hours. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 04:46
|
|
|
Wolpertinger posted:I'm not getting this logic, and several people have brought it up - The illuminati has had the EXACT SAME VICTORIES as the Great Society. The point is the great society never built bombs because that would give them option to blow up a populated world which is something they could never consider, whereas giant bombs was literally the Illuminati's second idea.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 05:23
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:The point is the great society never built bombs because that would give them option to blow up a populated world which is something they could never consider, whereas giant bombs was literally the Illuminati's second idea. It was the first. Literally the first thing on the table is Reed reverse-engineering the bomb Swan used.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 05:32
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:The point is the great society never built bombs because that would give them option to blow up a populated world which is something they could never consider, whereas giant bombs was literally the Illuminati's second idea. I'm not sure they needed to. Kind of like how Bruce Banner doesn't build a machine to tear apart buildings, Sun God probably doesn't need help doing that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 05:36
|
|
|
Is NOW! Uncanny Avengers a good read? I've never picked it up except for glances through the annual (the one with Mojo getting shat on by "corporate"), but the covers (barring this week's) have always looked slick as poo poo. It also seemed pretty disconnected from the rest of the Avengers titles (I think I saw Kang on a few covers?), and I was too busy digging Original Sin and Avengers/NA. Same question for Secret Avengers, except I know next to nothing about it. e: Also I guess Mighty Avengers and Young Avengers, though YA I know a little bit about from Original Sins, which mostly had me thinking "why is one issue's worth of story taking up six issues of space better spent on other characters' one-offs?" Four Score fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Sep 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 06:38
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:The point is the great society never built bombs because that would give them option to blow up a populated world which is something they could never consider, whereas giant bombs was literally the Illuminati's second idea. Yeah, and the great society is dead along with their world and the Illuminati is not. And they're considerably more powerful than the Avengers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 06:56
|
|
|
First Bass posted:Is NOW! Uncanny Avengers a good read? I've never picked it up except for glances through the annual (the one with Mojo getting shat on by "corporate"), but the covers (barring this week's) have always looked slick as poo poo. It also seemed pretty disconnected from the rest of the Avengers titles (I think I saw Kang on a few covers?), and I was too busy digging Original Sin and Avengers/NA. Uncanny's good, although I'd skip the first arc (I think it's like 5 issues or so?) because it's just the team bickering like children. Really the only thing of consequence that happens is that it's the book where Red Skull steals Professor X's brain. The only problem with Uncanny Avengers is, like other people have noted, there's a strong sense of "none of this will ever matter" to the book. Like, aside from the Red Skull thing, it's highly unlikely that SPOILER IF YOU ACTUALLY CARESunfire becoming an energy being will be anything of consequence to the greater Marvel universe or even be brought up in other books. But regardless, it's a real fun read. I like Secret Avengers as well, although apparently some people don't? Whatever. At least this iteration, don't read Spencer's. Oh, but if you're thinking about getting into it, the latest issue was terribad because Deadpool guest starred and it was basically "Everything Terrible About Deadpool: The Comic". But hopefully it gets its groove back next issue.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 07:00
|
|
|
Wolpertinger posted:Yeah, and the great society is dead along with their world and the Illuminati is not. And they're considerably more powerful than the Avengers. Yeah, and the definitions of morality and ethics, not to mention superhero all revolve around "the last one standing"
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 07:09
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Yeah, and the definitions of morality and ethics, not to mention superhero all revolve around "the last one standing" Yeah, and it's pretty immoral and unethical to doom your two entire universes to annihilation by sitting on your hands and doing nothing. Remember, doing nothing kills exponentially more - and your planet's dead anyway. In the grand scheme of things, the Earth is prolly like not even 0.1% of the population of the galaxy, and the galaxy is probably one in a million galaxies. There are no options where an earth does not die, here, except for the once-per-universe freebie with the Infinity Gauntlet, but only destroying an earth saves the every other living thing in the universe (and also prevents further incursions) in that universe. It's obviously a horrible option, but there's literally no option that does not involve mass-death. I'd be more inclined to blame whichever moron set the whole universal chain reaction in motion than the individual planets killing each other off. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Sep 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 07:29
|
|
|
Wolpertinger posted:Yeah, and it's pretty immoral to doom your two entire universes to annihilation by sitting on your hands and doing nothing. Remember, doing nothing kills exponentially more - and your planet's dead anyway. In the grand scheme of things, the Earth is prolly like not even 0.1% of the population of the galaxy, and the galaxy is probably one in a million galaxies. There are no options where a planet does not die, here, except for the once-per-universe freebie with the Infinity Gauntlet. Building world killing bombs take time and effort that could be put towards finding a solution that isn't a world killing bomb.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 07:33
|
|
|
Skwirl posted:Building world killing bombs take time and effort that could be put towards finding a solution that isn't a world killing bomb. Yeah, but an infinite amount of time in an infinite amount of universes has been put towards finding a solution that isn't a worldkilling bomb, and nobody's succeeded yet, so making a bomb to save two universes is better than being left high and dry when an incursion could happen literally any minute and splat there goes two universes because you neglected to build the bomb. Making like a hundred is overkill though, yes. Even when they do eventually inevitably discover some solution, the fact of the matter is they would have died with their entire universe and another entire universe on the first incursion after the infinity gems broke, and would never have had time to discover it in the first place. Honestly the smartest thing would have been to use the infinity gauntlet in some more clever way, like stopping time to give an infinite amount of time to figure out a solution. Or yeah, even moving the entire population of earth to Mars or something, even if it is giving up on the multiversal problem there's plenty of ways to dimension hop without an incursion to help out other worlds. Too late now, though! Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Sep 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 07:35
|
|
|
Wolpertinger posted:Honestly the smartest thing would have been to use the infinity gauntlet in some more clever way, like stopping time to give an infinite amount of time to figure out a solution. Or yeah, even moving the entire population of earth to Mars or something, even if it is giving up on the multiversal problem there's plenty of ways to dimension hop without an incursion to help out other worlds. Too late now, though! Well the implication in Avengers is that Cap's been through Time Runs Out a few times by that point, and him along with the future incarnations of the Avengers, Franklin, and the council of Kangs have all worked together to trying nearly every different solutions (the specifics being ultimately unimportant), all to no avail. This is effectively the same thing as having nearly unlimited time to figure something out. Folks with mastery over time and space, who pal around with cosmic abstracts and command gods, have no idea why everything is dying. Skwirl is just being purposely obtuse to make you effortpost.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 10:06
|
|
|
This is one of those storylines where Hickman HAS to stick the landing, and even though I have pretty much All the Faith in the guy, I'm still worried that the final resolution to the incursions is going to be underwhelming.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 14:39
|
|
|
I agree completely that the ending has to be well done for this story to work, but I suspect that no ending will satisfy everyone. Like if Cap figures out a way of stopping the Incursions, there will be people who bitch about Hickman chickening out. Or they'll say that the only resolution should have been 616 Earth as the last Earth left after killing every other weak Earth. Likewise if the end resolution becomes "the Universe was too broken, Reed and the Others had to be hard men for the greater good" then that will anger others. Heck the way some fans are splitting into camps then maybe any ending that presents a compromise approach will also draw flack.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 15:10
|
|
|
The thing is, it's Hickman, which means that he probably thought of the resolution first. I dunno, I can't get that worried considering how incredibly well Fantastic Four/FF and Secret Warriors hung together in the end.
|
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 15:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 16:01 |
|
|
d00gZ posted:The thing is, it's Hickman, which means that he probably thought of the resolution first. I dunno, I can't get that worried considering how incredibly well Fantastic Four/FF and Secret Warriors hung together in the end. Oh, I'm positive he had the resolution already in mind from the start--you would have to. I just can't imagine what it could possibly be (which is one of the reasons I love the guy). And yeah, FF ended well (very well!) but it didn't have such a laser-focused narrative hook/concept that NA has. redbackground fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Sep 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 5, 2014 15:14
|
|