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Agrippa was a humble badass and Augustus was a short spindly guy that got sick all the time
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Sep 6, 2014 02:59
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To be fair, he was a really smart and clever short spindly guy that got sick all the time.
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Sep 6, 2014 03:07
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euphronius posted:Lol like I would name my son after a loving plebeian. It's funny, because the gens Antonia (or at least the branch to which he belonged to) was plebeian. His grandfather was the great orator Marcus Antonius and he got elected consul and censor. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Sep 6, 2014 |
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Sep 6, 2014 03:10
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Coincidentally got sick just right when exactly he had to lead troops into battle. *fake cough* Let me tell you about Marcus Antonius
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Sep 6, 2014 03:10
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Jerusalem posted:I think what it goes to show is that Cato was such a polarising figure that even 2000+ years later people are still arguing whether he was an admirably honest and unbending man, or a hypocrite who talked a big game, poked his nose in other people's affairs, but was more than willing to make excuses and compromises for his own benefit. euphronius posted:Things were cool back in the day. With a bit of charisma you could raise an army and be someone.
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Sep 6, 2014 03:16
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Dwarf posted:What was Roman slang like? A fairly decent and readable survey on the subject, if you can get your hands on a copy, is "The Latin Sexual Vocabulary" by J. N. Adams. cf. http://www.amazon.com/The-Latin-Sexual-Vocabulary-Adams/dp/0801841062
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Sep 6, 2014 04:16
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I think I'd read it in this thread but I believe we've got evidence of Athenian sexual slang, which largely revolved around naval terminology. So guys would refer to their penises as Triremes (ladies :perv:), which women they'd 'rammed', etc. They also referred to orgies as naval battles. This was in the context of the general importance of the navy to Athenian pride, people named their daughters after naval references and lots of other poo poo too. It amuses me that it all got tied up into the sexual slang as well.
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Sep 6, 2014 17:21
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MrNemo posted:It amuses me that it all got tied up into the sexual slang as well. Don't be such a trireme, they had good reasons for it.
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Sep 6, 2014 17:31
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arkma posted:A fairly decent and readable survey on the subject, if you can get your hands on a copy, is "The Latin Sexual Vocabulary" by J. N. Adams. cf. http://www.amazon.com/The-Latin-Sexual-Vocabulary-Adams/dp/0801841062 In related books: http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Homosex...50RP8NZZPJYE3T3 The fact that someone took time out of their life to write a book exclusively about Roman homosexuality amuses me greatly.
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Sep 6, 2014 18:03
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Noctis Horrendae posted:In related books: A book on Roman homosexuality? poo poo, I'd be more shocked if it wasn't possible to stock a wall of a study with monographs just on the subject. That would be one massively under-researched field if there was only one book on it.
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Sep 6, 2014 18:26
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They stock a couple of shelves at my college library with Classical homosexuality books, yeah. Though we are the  college, so maybe that's to be expected.
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Sep 6, 2014 20:55
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Noctis Horrendae posted:In related books: Ancient sexuality is a pretty interesting subject actually. In the Athenian context people didn't really divide sexuality into hetero/homo categories, it was just generally sex. It all rested on who was actually doing the penetrating, as sticking your dick in things was considered the default masculine citizen thing to do. Problems only really arose when you were an Athenian citizen being penetrated outside of sanctioned outlets, like pederasty. As a sidenote, we have pretty good evidence of how these pederastic relationship worked as well - it centred on the gymnasium, involved the exchange of gifts for favours (sexual or not) and was highly publicised as to fit social conventions. This regulated homosexual contact pretty much led to that 'Ancient Greece was a Mecca for homosexuality' idea that most people usually assume. It isn't strictly true since there was regulation against homosexuality when it contravened social norms, being a gay prostitute was an executable crime for example, but even then they thought of sexuality in a different way so it was never really a point of contention. I mean, even seeing from what I wrote just then I'm unsurprised people dedicated a book to the subject, since it can tell us a lot about how social regulation in ancient societies worked in a way which was usually glossed over. Pre-1970s literature is usually pretty tight-lipped about it, much of it tends to distance Greek and Roman societies from the practice as not to sully the glorious ancient past or something.
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Sep 7, 2014 05:46
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I always hated and cringed at that part in 300 where he calls the Athenians homos and everyone in the theatre laughed "haha got 'em!"  Didn't a lot of the "Romans/greeks were terrible orgy having faggots" stem from modern day Christianity? What other little bits and taboo subjects have been misconstrued or exaggerated from folks around the Middle Ages(?) Nostalgia4Dogges fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 09:51
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MrNemo posted:I think I'd read it in this thread but I believe we've got evidence of Athenian sexual slang, which largely revolved around naval terminology. So guys would refer to their penises as Triremes (ladies :perv:), which women they'd 'rammed', etc. They also referred to orgies as naval battles. Well, I don't know about you, but I've got a pretty hefty septireme in my trousers. Speaking of which, I'm about to assault and board a lovely maiden I know.
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Sep 7, 2014 13:04
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Deploy seamen?
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Sep 7, 2014 14:00
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Christoff posted:I always hated and cringed at that part in 300 where he calls the Athenians homos and everyone in the theatre laughed "haha got 'em!" Plutarch goes the opposite direction and says that the women saw what the men had going and decided they wanted some of that too, ending up with both man/boy and woman/girl paederastic relationships being promoted.
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Sep 7, 2014 17:52
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Sleep of Bronze posted:Not necessarily ahistorical. Xenophon says that, while the Spartans kept most of the other aspects of paederasty (moral/physical tutoring, admiring the young men's beauty et al.), they regarded actual sex with the boys as on par with incest. (Con Lac 2) Which is sorta how we get the term lesbians because of Sappho of Lesbos who wrote a lot of poetry about sending off young girls she's tutored off to their husbands. Xenophon also talks about a case where a pair of Sparta teens roughly the same age fall in love. There's no real mentorship on the relationship and it's all very matter of fact. The moral of the story has nothing to do with the relationship as much as  letting his son talk him into doing a favor for the other lover's father. To me it read as a very equal relationship that happened to be homosexual and Xenophon had no issues with it.
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Sep 7, 2014 18:35
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I thought part of mentoring a young Spartan and poo poo was anal? (No pun intended)
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Sep 7, 2014 18:37
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I made a thing. It's for this thread.
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Sep 7, 2014 19:51
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Read Herodotus. I think a guy from the time knew what he was talking about better than you nerds
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Sep 7, 2014 19:55
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Needs more Also "Aristotle is always wrong. And a prick." E: also, the Roman Empire fell in 1920. the JJ fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 19:58
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It's missing the Pompeii graffiti.
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Sep 7, 2014 21:05
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Bitter Mushroom posted:Read Herodotus. I think a guy from the time knew what he was talking about better than you nerds Wasn't Herodotus not alive/a kid for almost the entire period he was talking about? Read Thucydides. I think a guy from the time knew what he was talking about better than that spergy Herodotus nerd.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:40
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"Read Suetonius" and "Tiberius hosed children", one makes the other redundant surely? 
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Sep 7, 2014 23:50
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Christoff posted:What other little bits and taboo subjects have been misconstrued or exaggerated from folks around the Middle Ages(?) Victorians were responsible for most of that crap. The weird gay stuff, the origies, the vomitorium, all that extreme moral degradation nonsense. The Romans were pretty prudish.
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Sep 8, 2014 03:17
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Octy posted:Wasn't Herodotus not alive/a kid for almost the entire period he was talking about? Read Thucydides. I think a guy from the time knew what he was talking about better than that spergy Herodotus nerd. I think it less about Herodotus being alive for the events and more about the attitude towards veracity. Thucydides has a whole section on how he verified and his process for that. I mean, the most biased part of the History of the Pelo War was the bit Thucydides was directly involved in. That hole section reads "waaaaaah it wasn't my fault waaaaaah gently caress you Cleon." Xenophon I think does a much better job of distancing his personal involvement in events.
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Sep 8, 2014 03:20
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The pic cloud is also missing "gently caress his stupid loving face" after CatoGrand Fromage posted:Victorians were responsible for most of that crap. The weird gay stuff, the origies, the vomitorium, all that extreme moral degradation nonsense. The Romans were pretty prudish. Is there anything the Victorians did not ruin? Y/N Serious question though, does anyone have a link to that book of translated Roman jokes that came up some time back?
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Sep 8, 2014 04:01
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Grand Fromage posted:Victorians were responsible for most of that crap. The weird gay stuff, the origies, the vomitorium, all that extreme moral degradation nonsense. The Romans were pretty prudish. Which is somewhat ironic since the Victorians themselves were similar in terms of being prudish (more so than the Romans even) and also having plenty of upper class affairs, homosexual relationships, etc. They really were just a more extreme version of the Romans in the whole 'don't mention anything in public' sense. At the same time that prudishness meant they actually sexualised things to a much greater degree than the Romans (hence covering the penises on Roman era statues, etc.) Also seen that Helen of Troy? Let's just say my oarsmen started rowing double speed.
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Sep 8, 2014 04:28
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Grand Fromage posted:Victorians were responsible for most of that crap. The weird gay stuff, the origies, the vomitorium, all that extreme moral degradation nonsense. The Romans were pretty prudish. Care to elaborate or I mean anyone else?
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Sep 8, 2014 15:15
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Tao Jones posted:I made a thing. It's for this thread. That's awesome!
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Sep 8, 2014 15:21
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Christoff posted:Care to elaborate or I mean anyone else? Well, most of the extreme immorality stories that pop culture associates with the Romans are inventions of the Victorians. Some come from people like Suetonius, who was also making poo poo up, or from other writings that were generally by the enemies of the people being accused of banging little boys and whatnot. Some, like the idea of the vomitorium as a place to vomit rather than an exit hallway, are either Victorian inventions entirely or just misunderstandings of words. The Victorians were big on making themselves seem like the kings of morality and everyone else being horrible wretches, and they were also huge into the classics. So, some Victorians combined those and made up poo poo to make themselves seem morally superior to the ancients. The reality is the Romans were quite a bit more straight laced than people usually think they were.
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Sep 8, 2014 15:43
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Okay then, I guess the question is who were the most sexually degenerate people of the ancient world?
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Sep 8, 2014 15:51
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Anyone and everyone who wasn't [nationality of ancient source].
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Sep 8, 2014 15:55
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Exioce posted:Okay then, I guess the question is who were the most sexually degenerate people of the ancient world? Wherever your mom is from. - Suetonius
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Sep 8, 2014 16:00
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Exioce posted:Okay then, I guess the question is who were the most sexually degenerate people of the ancient world? Your great-great-great...-grandmothers. edit: poo poo, thats what I get for leaving a tab open for too long.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:28
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From Wikipedia: Ancient Roman jokes are usually recorded by ancient writers to be used as a rhetorical device, and many of them are apparently taken from real-life trials conducted by famous advocates, such as Cicero. One of the oldest Roman jokes, which is based on a fictitious story and survived alive to this time, is told by Macrobius in his Saturnalia:[1] (4th century AD, but the joke itself is probably several centuries older): Some provincial man has come to Rome, and walking on the streets was drawing everyone's attention, being a real double of the emperor Augustus. The emperor, having brought him to the palace, looks at him and then asks: -Tell me, young man, did your mother come to Rome anytime? The reply was: -She never has. But my father frequently was here.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:45
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Christoff posted:Care to elaborate or I mean anyone else? Additionally I seem to remember reading that Estruscan society was much more liberal with regards to women's rights and sexuality. The Romans were supposedly rather aghast at that, believing women need to be chaste and controlled, etc.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:50
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Where were the Etruscans from as a civilization? Was it people from Phoenicia setting up trading towns like they did in Carthage and Spain? It's mystery to me because it's not shown on wiki trade routes and cities, but they did seem to come out of no where but did trade with Greece, and maybe Tyre. From what I know, they were completely different in culture and language to the early Europeans, Greeks*, Celts etc. e: * Though did have Greek influence in language and culture due to trade later on, they didn't start off that way though. Fo3 fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 18:57
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There's some speculation for an Anatolian origin, based on some (slightly shaky) linguistic similarities, but nothing conclusive so far as I remember. Though authors with pet theories will obviously claim it's all totally settled.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:07
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Fo3 posted:Where were the Etruscans from as a civilization? Was it people from Phoenicia setting up trading towns like they did in Carthage and Spain? You should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins Not in "let me Google that for you" sense, but because it's really fascinating. Sleep of Bronze posted:There's some speculation for an Anatolian origin, based on some (slightly shaky) linguistic similarities, but nothing conclusive so far as I remember. Though authors with pet theories will obviously claim it's all totally settled. The connection of the Lemnian inscriptions and Etruscan isn't shaky at all, afaik. What's shaky is the attempt to make any decent conclusions out of that and the weird speculations of ancient authors. It's an open question.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:11
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