My Imaginary GF posted:Making lists of known Russian apologists and publicizing their names....hmmm....sounds like a very Germanic or McCarthian thing to do. You mean McCarthyite? Conceptually similar, I suppose, although it's more a social stigma effect than the material paranoia or actual harm of the McCarthy era. I'm not sure how long you've been in the thread, but mightypeon has a tendency to pop in for a set of conspiracy theories and RT talking points, and carry a couple new posters along with him until he gets shouted down when he says something particularly horrible. Then he stops posting for a couple days, only to reappear like a case of Russophile gonorrhea. He's the most persistent, but there are several similar posters who've trolled the thread along those lines, and letting people know who they are would save us a lot of time.
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Sep 7, 2014 22:59
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Vladimir Putin posted:Obama can't play that game because the US still cares about its credibility. If Russia were to parade on TV proof of US involvement, then it would be a blow to the US. Putin on the other hand clearly doesn't give a gently caress either way, so he can issue these ridiculous denials. They've been smuggled from Iraq and Libya by Muslim activists who sympathize with the plight of the Crimean Tatars.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:05
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Discendo Vox posted:You mean McCarthyite? Conceptually similar, I suppose, although it's more a social stigma effect than the material paranoia or actual harm of the McCarthy era. I'm not sure how long you've been in the thread, but mightypeon has a tendency to pop in for a set of conspiracy theories and RT talking points, and carry a couple new posters along with him until he gets shouted down when he says something particularly horrible. Then he stops posting for a couple days, only to reappear like a case of Russophile gonorrhea. He's the most persistent, but there are several similar posters who've trolled the thread along those lines, and letting people know who they are would save us a lot of time. I've seen mightypeon, he's a good insight into the Russian frame of mind. There've been a few good discussions refuting what hes claimed with evidence, notably some BrownMoses posts. Trolls gonna troll, evidence gonna win.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:Trolls gonna troll, evidence gonna win. Considering how successful Russian lies are, this is a pretty funny thing to say in this thread.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:14
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If you look at his last two replies they pretty much openly say that he's not interested in debate. It's not that he thinks the guy is trolling, he just wants the thread to shun him. I guess to make more room for people to talk about how much Russia hate HOMONAZIS.Lucy Heartfilia posted:Considering how successful Russian lies are, this is a pretty funny thing to say in this thread. They're not. Almost no one believes them. If you are unable to debate the topic with someone who supports Russia then you should get out of the arguing game because you are very, very bad at it.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:15
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I am enjoying the "From Russia with love" add banners that occasionally appear on this thread.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:18
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Someone who supports Russia aka someone who thinks the only thing wrong with the Iraq War was who led the coalition.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:20
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Maarek posted:They're not. Almost no one believes them. If you are unable to debate the topic with someone who supports Russia then you should get out of the arguing game because you are very, very bad at it. Why are Russians so broadly supporting the war against Ukraine then?
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Sep 7, 2014 23:26
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Considering how successful Russian lies are, this is a pretty funny thing to say in this thread. D&D has a few individuals actually employed in policy decisions. Policy decisions take both time to implement and time to appear. The more a troll posts and is responded to with evidence, the more likely that evidence is to become disseminated amongst those who actually decide what will happen.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:29
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Why are Russians so broadly supporting the war against Ukraine then? People who don't live in Russia are overwhelmingly opposed to the war. This forum certainly doesn't have a lack of people who don't believe Russia Today, so it shouldn't be too difficult to win in an argument.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:32
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Maarek posted:They're not. Almost no one believes them. In this thread, sure. Outside in the broad, wide world? Plenty of guys who do. From this article, Israeli tend to side with Russia on this issue because 1. a significant portion of the Israeli population comes from the former Soviet Union, 2. Russia is an important strategic partner for Israel, and 3. Svoboda and Pravyï Sektor are Nazis so the Ukrainians are bad guys. (Also Israel isn't going to say that it's wrong to annex bits of a weaker country under the pretext of protecting your ethnic population that settled there.) Everywhere in the West, you'll also find useful idiots who believe Russian propaganda because it contradicts the "official news" which are all "controlled by the CIA" and therefore necessarily wrong; and anyone who contradicts the voice of The Man automatically says the truth.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:32
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My Imaginary GF posted:D&D has a few individuals actually employed in policy decisions. Policy decisions take both time to implement and time to appear. The more a troll posts and is responded to with evidence, the more likely that evidence is to become disseminated amongst those who actually decide what will happen. Maarek posted:People who don't live in Russia are overwhelmingly opposed to the war. This forum certainly doesn't have a lack of people who don't believe Russia Today, so it shouldn't be too difficult to win in an argument. I should have been more precise and explicit. Russian propaganda is aimed at Russians to make them support an unjust, criminal war. And it works. Putin doesn't care about the opinion of anyone else, because nukes and dependence on energy sources take care of that. Evidence might prevail in here, but it doesn't where it counts, because Russians are willing to keep on killing the people of another nation without any cause for war. That's what I meant to say. Also gently caress you, Maarek, I'm not whining about losing arguments. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 23:35
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:I should have been more precise and explicit. Russian propaganda is aimed at Russians to make them support an unjust, criminal war. And it works. Putin doesn't care about the opinion of anyone else, because nukes and dependence on energy sources take care of that. And we are willing to train anti-Russian forces in Romania and Poland, and if Russia attacks those camps, we're willing to consider them as direct attacks against NATO member-state sovreignity and escalate up to and including nuclear war.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:37
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:I should have been more precise and explicit. Russian propaganda is aimed at Russians to make them support an unjust, criminal war. And it works. Putin doesn't care about the opinion of anyone else, because nukes and dependence on energy sources take care of that. How do you make the jump from "an autocratic dictator has an insanely powerful propaganda machine" to "every Russian from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok is responsible for the war in Ukraine regardless of circumstance"?
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Sep 7, 2014 23:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:And we are willing to train anti-Russian forces in Romania and Poland, and if Russia attacks those camps, we're willing to consider them as direct attacks against NATO member-state sovreignity and escalate up to and including nuclear war. Should have had those camps in Ukraine. Well, let's hope we learn from this mistake and curb Russian imperialism as soon as possible. Malleum posted:How do you make the jump from "an autocratic dictator has an insanely powerful propaganda machine" to "every Russian from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok is responsible for the war in Ukraine regardless of circumstance"? There is overwhelming will to carry on with this war. And Putin is not a dictator. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 23:38
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Should have had those camps in Ukraine. Well, let's hope we learn from this mistake and curb Russian imperialism as soon as possible. Who says we don't? Depending how Russia responds, we're willing to employ their tactics. Western Ukraine is considered under Polish sovreignity when it comes to Russian incursions. If Russia wants to incur upon Polish sovreignity, Russia will face the price.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:40
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Cat Mattress posted:
You will also find people who believe that angels are real and the moon landing was faked. As an aside, I just stamped off 'useful idiots' off my Cold War 2.0 bingo card. I'm one 'Fellow Traveler' away from getting a postage stamp! Malleum posted:How do you make the jump from "an autocratic dictator has an insanely powerful propaganda machine" to "every Russian from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok is responsible for the war in Ukraine regardless of circumstance"? There's something darkly comical about people bemoaning how the Russians are all sheep following state propaganda in one breath and lusting for the destruction of their country or people in the next. Maarek fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 23:40
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:There is overwhelming will to carry on with this war. An overwhelming will implanted by Putin's cronies and wouldn't exist without the current Kremlin's propaganda machine. Don't punish the child for the sins of the parents.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:Western Ukraine is considered under Polish sovreignity when it comes to Russian incursions. If Russia wants to incur upon Polish sovreignity, Russia will face the price. Can you expand on that? Maarek posted:There's something darkly comical about people bemoaning how the Russians are all sheep following state propaganda in one breath and lusting for the destruction of their country or people in the next. Nah, I just want the country crippled until it is unable to cause further harm. Putin and his murderous dogs are the ones who deserve punishment. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 23:42
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Can you expand on that? Not at this time, no. I'd highly recommend watching BM's posts to see if any videos surface soon with NATO's response force/trainers geotagged to western Ukraine.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:44
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Cat Mattress posted:Outside in the broad, wide world? Plenty of guys who do. From this article, Israeli tend to side with Russia on this issue because 1. a significant portion of the Israeli population comes from the former Soviet Union, 2. Russia is an important strategic partner for Israel, and 3. Svoboda and Pravyï Sektor are Nazis so the Ukrainians are bad guys. (Also Israel isn't going to say that it's wrong to annex bits of a weaker country under the pretext of protecting your ethnic population that settled there.) This is actually somewhat ironic since a lot of harder-line Ukrainian folks seem to look towards Israel as an inspiration/role model, both from the "you have to fight for yourself" angle and "Europe is all talk, so who cares what they think anyway" angle --- and, well, in interest in not getting I/P here, there are certainly both positive and negative lessons to be had there. (There are also lots of comparisons between DPR/LPR and Hamas).
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Sep 7, 2014 23:46
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My Imaginary GF posted:Not at this time, no. I'd highly recommend watching BM's posts to see if any videos surface soon with NATO's response force/trainers geotagged to western Ukraine. NATO is holding some joint exercises with Ukrainian troops in Western Ukraine in September. This is not a secret. They thought about cancelling it due to the unrest, but Eastern European states insisted it go forward.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:47
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Deteriorata posted:NATO is holding some joint exercises with Ukrainian troops in Western Ukraine in September. This is not a secret. I've encountered active recruitment efforts in the Ukranian/Polish community for volunteer fighters against the Russian incursion. I don't think this isn't allowed with permission.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:49
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Lucy Heartfilia posted:Nah, I just want the country crippled until it is unable to cause further harm. Putin and his murderous dogs are the ones who deserve punishment. I see the term "collective punishment" means nothing to you. In order to harm a small minority of Russians you want to make every Russian suffer. How about instead of crippling a country you uplift the populace and help them see how horrific their current regime is and help them not fall into the same pit again? I guess that wouldn't fulfill your childish revenge fantasies though.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:50
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Malleum posted:I see the term "collective punishment" means nothing to you. In order to harm a small minority of Russians you want to make every Russian suffer. How about instead of crippling a country you uplift the populace and help them see how horrific their current regime is and help them not fall into the same pit again? I guess that wouldn't fulfill your childish revenge fantasies though. How exactly are you going to uplift the populace of a hostile country?
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Sep 7, 2014 23:51
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Nintendo Kid posted:How exactly are you going to uplift the populace of a hostile country? Not by crippling it and make them hate you. Make steps to not appear as hostile to them, starting with the dropping of "EVERY RUSSIAN IS A SUBHUMAN MONSTER OUT TO EAT AND RAPE ALL GOOD WESTERN BABIES" dogma.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:53
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Malleum posted:I see the term "collective punishment" means nothing to you. In order to harm a small minority of Russians you want to make every Russian suffer. How about instead of crippling a country you uplift the populace and help them see how horrific their current regime is and help them not fall into the same pit again? I guess that wouldn't fulfill your childish revenge fantasies though. Those are two different things: Punishing the people in order to also punish Putin is impossible. Punishment of Putin is not achievable. I wouldn't want that and it's not possible anyways. The only thing left to do is to reduce Russia's ability to continue attacking and killing innocents in other countries. Edit: Well, I WANT Putin and his group of bloodthirsty murderers dead, but it will not happen. Impossible. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 23:54
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Malleum posted:Not by crippling it and make them hate you. Make steps to not appear as hostile to them, starting with the dropping of "EVERY RUSSIAN IS A SUBHUMAN MONSTER OUT TO EAT AND RAPE ALL GOOD WESTERN BABIES" dogma. We tried to not be hostile to them for two decades, they invaded Ukraine over it. Boy that sure was helpful! It especially doesn't help that there is minimal meaningful electoral outlet for the population as a whole. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Sep 7, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 23:54
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Nintendo Kid posted:The best thing to do if we give them money is to straight up give money to run the government. Not a loan either. Yeah, I think that would be best. Even if it came with strings to not use to buy weapons. Which is hard, because the weapons they'd want to buy would come from Russia. I guess even surplus equipment would help. As far as The Ukraine not being like arming Al Queda, you have to remember that the US also gave some weapons to Iraq, and that didn't work out well either. Things change over the decades, and although I can't see the future, it doesn't seem like it would be a bad idea to just have a policy of not giving guns to states experiencing political turmoil. I mean, we haven't postponed the exercises anymore that are coming up, and having US troops in the Ukraine does send a message that expansion will only be tolerated so much. I think I'd rather just see NATO troops hang out on a semi permanent basis for exercises than giving the Ukraine heavy military equipment.
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Sep 7, 2014 23:55
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^^^^ Side note: Iraqi army actually bought some Ukrainian-built APCs. Wonder whose hands they are in now. Malleum posted:An overwhelming will implanted by Putin's cronies and wouldn't exist without the current Kremlin's propaganda machine. Don't punish the child for the sins of the parents. While I agree that some people are going way too far, I don't think calling Russian citizens 'children' is appropriate --- they are adults, and their access to information isn't completely cut off, so they do bear part of moral responsibility for their country's actions. (Much like any American who cheer-leaded for war in Iraq on grounds of dubious WMD talk is partly morally responsible for the war).
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Sep 7, 2014 23:55
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Nintendo Kid posted:We tried to not be hostile to them for two decades, they invaded Ukraine over it. Boy that sure was helpful! And "we" did nothing more than that. There was an opportunity in those twenty years to uplift the populace and show them that the West is not an enemy anymore. They did that many of the the ex-Soviet states. The West successfully integrated them into the greater whole. Maybe we should ask ourselves why Russia is the odd man out. Maybe take a step forward once in awhile instead of saying that because some Russians did some bad things that every Russian is an untrustworthy subhuman unworthy of life or aid. OddObserver posted:While I agree that some people are going way too far, I don't think calling Russian citizens 'children' is appropriate --- they are adults, and their access to information Propaganda is a powerful thing. The information is muddied by Putin's poisoning of the waters. Everything not Russian is suspect. The information is out there, but the Ministry of Truth has ingrained a distrust of it into the Russian societal conscience. Of course they bear some moral responsibility, but neither are they 100% culpable for every action of the Russian state.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:I've encountered active recruitment efforts in the Ukranian/Polish community for volunteer fighters against the Russian incursion. I don't think this isn't allowed with permission. I know several Ukrainians in North America who are seriously considering going back to fight.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:09
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I think in the grand calculus we handled the past 20 years much worse than we could have, but we did put a lot of money in their space program to try and keep them out of trouble. I'm not convinced that inundating Russia with money would have stopped this from happening. Nor am I convinced that there isn't a middle ground between wanting to see them suffer and trying to appease them.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:10
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Malleum posted:And "we" did nothing more than that. There was an opportunity in those twenty years to uplift the populace and show them that the West is not an enemy anymore. They did that many of the the ex-Soviet states. The West successfully integrated them into the greater whole. Maybe we should ask ourselves why Russia is the odd man out. Maybe take a step forward once in awhile instead of saying that because some Russians did some bad things that every Russian is an untrustworthy subhuman unworthy of life or aid. Seriously? Neither Putin nor Yeltsin was interested in submitting to the same sort of reduced decision making roles required to join the EU or NATO; further the eastern countries themselves had to wiat quite a bit to join up.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:10
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I think in the grand calculus we handled the past 20 years much worse than we could have, but we did put a lot of money in their space program to try and keep them out of trouble. I'm not convinced that inundating Russia with money would have stopped this from happening. Nor am I convinced that there isn't a middle ground between wanting to see them suffer and trying to appease them. There is always two sides and I think both the West and Russia could have done way better.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:11
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Vladimir Putin posted:I know several Ukrainians in North America who are seriously considering going back to fight. Yes, I've heard. Theres quite the community of anti-Russian imperialism here in Chicago. I'm trying to determine whether the attempts are grassroot, astroturf, or grassroots with astroturf management.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:D&D has a few individuals actually employed in policy decisions. Policy decisions take both time to implement and time to appear. The more a troll posts and is responded to with evidence, the more likely that evidence is to become disseminated amongst those who actually decide what will happen. I did not think that by posting here we were serving the public.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:15
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OddObserver posted:^^^^ Their access to information though is significantly more limited than most Americans though, in Moscow you still had as of 2014 some liberal/free outlets but largely they serve a niche audience otherwise much everything else is controlled by the Kremlin. Furthermore, the state channels actually have quite a bit of money poured into them to make them attractive and a lot of people get their news that way. While there is still the internet but knowledge of other languages especially English is limited and once you get out of the major cities, it gets even worse. Ultimately, outside of Moscow Putin has an very firm handle on access to information. Also, I have noticed some weird stuff with my internet connection .I am getting warning pages going to certain sites (Ualivemap and somethingawful ironically enough) that required Captcha tests, which seems a bit odd. I do think there was strong support for Crimea but support for the current conflict is more difficult to figure out. Also, I think "creating lists" of posters is a really terrible and authoritarian idea. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 00:16
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You might want to run a malware scan. Unless your country is taking a page from China and having internet police pop ups.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:19
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Some posters from I think Slovakia or the Czech Republic were complaining about capchas, I think because a server that was trying to DOS somethingawful was based there? IDK.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:20
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