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Nintendo Kid posted:Seriously? Neither Putin nor Yeltsin was interested in submitting to the same sort of reduced decision making roles required to join the EU or NATO; further the eastern countries themselves had to wiat quite a bit to join up. And during their trial period there was a policy of integration. The West made a concerted effort to win over the hearts and minds of the people. Admittedly, it was easier in Poland than it would be in Russia, but why did the west's attempt to educate the Russians against the dangers of autocrats fail? Why was giving up power Yeltsin's bridge too far? The difficulties you are describing are the exact reasons that the Peace Corps exists. I know it's easy to say "It's because the Russians aren't used to democracy!" but the same thing can be said about all the Warsaw Pact states, and none of them are currently pursuing brinksmanship with the West.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:24
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:You might want to run a malware scan. Unless your country is taking a page from China and having internet police pop ups. I am currently in Moscow, so maybe? I wasn't having a issue with it 2 days ago when I was in the states. It might be DOS related though. As far as the EU, it wouldn't have ever been an option for Russia, Russia is way way too large of a country and would have skewed the union as a whole far more towards it and away from Frankfurt and Brussels. Also, I suspect NATO wouldn't have worked out either for a variety of reasons, especially since in the minds of Russians they were "the bad guys." Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 00:26
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Malleum posted:And during their trial period there was a policy of integration. The West made a concerted effort to win over the hearts and minds of the people. Admittedly, it was easier in Poland than it would be in Russia, but why did the west's attempt to educate the Russians against the dangers of autocrats fail? Why was giving up power Yeltsin's bridge too far? The difficulties you are describing are the exact reasons that the Peace Corps exists. Yeltsin refusing to give up power made it impossible for Russia to join EU or NATO: accession to both requires giving up some measure of local control to become part of the overall. Hence, impossible for Russia to get the benefits of either.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:34
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Malleum posted:Propaganda is a powerful thing. The information is muddied by Putin's poisoning of the waters. Everything not Russian is suspect. The information is out there, but the Ministry of Truth has ingrained a distrust of it into the Russian societal conscience. Of course they bear some moral responsibility, but neither are they 100% culpable for every action of the Russian state.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:34
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StandardVC10 posted:Some posters from I think Slovakia or the Czech Republic were complaining about capchas, I think because a server that was trying to DOS somethingawful was based there? IDK. That's true, it might be a cloudflare type thing. Malleum posted:And during their trial period there was a policy of integration. The West made a concerted effort to win over the hearts and minds of the people. Admittedly, it was easier in Poland than it would be in Russia, but why did the west's attempt to educate the Russians against the dangers of autocrats fail? Why was giving up power Yeltsin's bridge too far? The difficulties you are describing are the exact reasons that the Peace Corps exists. I'm not convinced. Part of the problem is Russia has a lot more to lose than the other states do. They're a big nation with enough nukes and a seat on the security council. It wouldn't be in their interest from a policy perspective to get under the west's wing like it was for most of the former Warsaw pact nations. This isn't to say that the Russians are doing themselves any favors right now, or that the West did any favors in the past either. I also don't think Russia is currently engaging in brinkmanship right now either. The situation is too muddled. Brinkmanship may well become the order of the day, but The Ukraine isn't a NATO member, so while what they're doing sucks, I don't think you can call it brinkmanship with the West. We'll have to see how things pan out in a few weeks when NATO troops are actually in The Ukraine. Also, as much as I hate to say it, brinkmanship got us through the cold war in one peace, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if we go back. For one thing, it'd be a lot harder to do what they're doing if the West was already back to the 1980's in attitude.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:37
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Nintendo Kid posted:Yeltsin refusing to give up power made it impossible for Russia to join EU or NATO: accession to both requires giving up some measure of local control to become part of the overall. Hence, impossible for Russia to get the benefits of either. Why? Do you understand the reasons behind Yelstin's reluctance to give up that power? Do you have any inkling of why he wouldn't give up his power even in the face of the 90's? It means nothing to know that a thing happened without understanding the context behind it.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:40
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Malleum posted:Why? Do you understand the reasons behind Yelstin's reluctance to give up that power? Do you have any inkling of why he wouldn't give up his power even in the face of the 90's? It means nothing to know that a thing happened without understanding the context behind it. The reason was that Yeltsin thought Russia could go it alone and remain a strong power, instead the actual Yeltsin administration happened. Sorry, Russia lost their chance then, and refused chances ever since.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, I've heard. Theres quite the community of anti-Russian imperialism here in Chicago. I'm trying to determine whether the attempts are grassroot, astroturf, or grassroots with astroturf management. I think its mostly grassroots. I live in a Ukranian neighborhood and ive known several of these guys for decades. I have to laugh anytime somebody says Ukraine is not a real country or that theres no real ukranian identity. All ive known when I meet a ukranian is absolute pride in their roots as Ukranians and their culture.
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Sep 8, 2014 00:57
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Vladimir Putin posted:I think its mostly grassroots. I live in a Ukranian neighborhood and ive known several of these guys for decades. I have to laugh anytime somebody says Ukraine is not a real country or that theres no real ukranian identity. All ive known when I meet a ukranian is absolute pride in their roots as Ukranians and their culture. Yes, Ukraine has a distinct identity documentable since at least before the 12th century. I blame the Greeks.
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Sep 8, 2014 01:27
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Vladimir Putin posted:I think its mostly grassroots. I live in a Ukranian neighborhood and ive known several of these guys for decades. I have to laugh anytime somebody says Ukraine is not a real country or that theres no real ukranian identity. All ive known when I meet a ukranian is absolute pride in their roots as Ukranians and their culture. Expatriates is probably not the best way to judge a national identity to be fair.
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Sep 8, 2014 01:33
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Kainser posted:Expatriates is probably not the best way to judge a national identity to be fair. Well this is a good point. They don't squat in the street, so I have to take everything with a grain of salt.
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Sep 8, 2014 01:42
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pigdog posted:You know, one thing that's keeping me hopeful with this thing is that while propaganda makes Russians support war and Putin today, then tomorrow (god willing) the propaganda could just as easily sway them in the other direction.
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Sep 8, 2014 05:39
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Nintendo Kid posted:Seriously? Neither Putin nor Yeltsin was interested in submitting to the same sort of reduced decision making roles required to join the EU or NATO; further the eastern countries themselves had to wiat quite a bit to join up.
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Sep 8, 2014 06:12
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My Imaginary GF posted:D&D has a few individuals actually employed in policy decisions. Policy decisions take both time to implement and time to appear. The more a troll posts and is responded to with evidence, the more likely that evidence is to become disseminated amongst those who actually decide what will happen. It's true, I'm actually Obama irl and this thread made me decide to declare war on Russia.
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Sep 8, 2014 07:17
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What have we done.
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Sep 8, 2014 07:23
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Also, as much as I hate to say it, brinkmanship got us through the cold war in one peace, so it wouldn't be the end of the world if we go back. For one thing, it'd be a lot harder to do what they're doing if the West was already back to the 1980's in attitude. The real danger of the cold war wasn't all the times the world leaders were skirting as close to a conflict as possible hoping the other side would blink first (dangerous as that was), it was all the times the world was a few minutes away from nuclear war by accident or misunderstanding. Not really looking forward to a second cold war, humanity has already pushed it's luck way, way too far.
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Sep 8, 2014 08:06
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OddObserver posted:This is actually somewhat ironic since a lot of harder-line Ukrainian folks seem to look towards Israel as an inspiration/role model, I don't know if we should blame the Ukrainian cargo cult mentality or the great PR work of Israel for this. Although "Novorossiya" rebels love to compare themselves to Hamas just the same.
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Sep 8, 2014 08:12
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DesperateDan posted:The real danger of the cold war wasn't all the times the world leaders were skirting as close to a conflict as possible hoping the other side would blink first (dangerous as that was), it was all the times the world was a few minutes away from nuclear war by accident or misunderstanding. Not really looking forward to a second cold war, humanity has already pushed it's luck way, way too far. I disagree. I think we're safer on the brink. Nothing like living under the constant fear of the end of the world to make you really not keen on things that might end it. As long as the missiles still exist an accident can still cause a problem, after all, so I'd rather the weapons exist where people have the proper context for them and treat them with the respect they deserve. Or at least, the motivation to treat them with respect. I don't suppose anything will stop a Russian early warning system from being a broken piece of crap, but that threat hasn't gone away right now, and probably will never go away.
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Sep 8, 2014 08:13
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Sometimes I really feel like I'm living in a completely different world. Russia joining the EU or NATO? Seriously? How would that even ... What? Seriously?
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Sep 8, 2014 08:22
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I remember an old joke, I think it went something like this: When travelling at home, Americans are driving Ford. When travelling abroad, Americans are driving Chevrolet. When travelling at home, Germans are driving Opel. When travelling abroad, Germans are driving BMW. When travelling at home, Russians are driving Lada. When travelling abroad, Russians are driving T-90. This is the proof that all those Russian tourists in Ukraine, are in fact, tourists.
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Sep 8, 2014 08:24
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waitwhatno posted:Sometimes I really feel like I'm living in a completely different world. Russia joining the EU or NATO? Seriously? How would that even ... What? Seriously? We were allied with Russia, once. If they play by our rules for a few generations, we can be allied with them again.
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Sep 8, 2014 08:24
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Malleum posted:And during their trial period there was a policy of integration. The West made a concerted effort to win over the hearts and minds of the people. Admittedly, it was easier in Poland than it would be in Russia, but why did the west's attempt to educate the Russians against the dangers of autocrats fail? Because Russia directly worked against the efforts to support NGOs and political parties, locked up the media and doubled down on nationalism unlike those countries. The West has consistently complained every time a journalist or political opponent was imprisoned or murdered and Putin just don't give a poo poo. You can't affect positive change in the face of this. The only thing we could have done differently would be with a more forceful response to those issues which would be better in hindsight but that definetely would not "win over the hearts and minds of the people". It would have been a great tool for the propaganda machine though.
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Sep 8, 2014 08:25
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President Poroshenko is on his way to Mariupol to assess the damage. https://twitter.com/JuMistress/status/508916154375868417 Lukashenko says it's America's fault Russia and Ukraine are fighting, because America wants us to kill each other. quote:Brilev, an anchorman of Rossiya 1 TV channel. http://belsat.eu/en/wiadomosci/a,21782,lukashenka-accuses-uncle-sam-of-instigating-war-in-ukraine.html Poroshenko signed a bill today allowing Western companies to purchase stakes in Ukrainian gas transit and storage companies. http://www.epravda.com.ua/news/2014/09/8/489274/ quote:Poroshenko President signed a law that permitted lease of main gas pipelines and underground gas storage facilities without their alienation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0mbWKd1b6k HUGE PUBES A PLUS fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 11:27
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Hmmm, the shelling has stopped and nothing more has happened. There is still hope. In today's Süddeutsche there is also an article about how nobody from Western journalists to even most of the powerful politicians in Moscow knows what the gently caress is up with Putin, what his plans are and what he his thinking. (The annexation of Crimea took several important and powerful people in Russia by surprise for example.) It also talks how Putin has grown up in an environment where might makes right and experienced many humiliations and turned that into being easily offended and using harsh reactions and humiliation as a tool himself. Finally it says that the Russian people are similar to Putin in still clinging to being pissed off and faulting everyone else except themselves without any sense of introspection like literal children. And this is a liberal center-left newspaper. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 11:39
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From liveuamap: Little Green Men sighted in Moldova. https://twitter.com/rob7news/status/508925121382580225  Russian soldiers with tanks and armored personnel Carriers surrounded the checkpoint of #the national guard in Luhansk region https://twitter.com/Sloviansk/status/508924361206927361 #Gubarev: it's not only #DNR and #LNR, we say about all #Novorossiya, Zaporozhye, Kherson and other areas https://twitter.com/TKulakowski/status/508899180166017024
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Sep 8, 2014 12:16
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BBC: EU to adopt new Russia sanctions soon Details later today, officially adopted tomorrow
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Sep 8, 2014 12:19
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Cat Mattress posted:From liveuamap: Every time I hope that it is finally over, some new aggression from Russia happens.
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Sep 8, 2014 12:21
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From the article though it is rather unclear where it is happening, whether they are in Moldova proper or are just in Transnistria. http://www.unian.ua/world/960306-zeleni-cholovichki-zyavilisya-na-teritoriji-moldovi-rnbo.html Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 12:37
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Cat Mattress posted:From liveuamap:  What are they doing in Moldova? Basically the Russians really don't give a poo poo anymore?
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Sep 8, 2014 12:38
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Cat Mattress posted:From liveuamap: Are those anti-tank dogs?
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Sep 8, 2014 12:38
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OhYeah posted:
Over a thousand Russian soldiers have been there for quite a while.
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Sep 8, 2014 12:41
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my dad posted:Over a thousand Russian soldiers have been there for quite a while. I thought that was in Transdnstnstrnsdstnria.
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Sep 8, 2014 12:46
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OhYeah posted:I thought that was in Transdnstnstrnsdstnria. So in Moldova. Heh.
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Sep 8, 2014 12:51
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:I disagree. I think we're safer on the brink. Nothing like living under the constant fear of the end of the world to make you really not keen on things that might end it. As long as the missiles still exist an accident can still cause a problem, after all, so I'd rather the weapons exist where people have the proper context for them and treat them with the respect they deserve. Or at least, the motivation to treat them with respect. I don't suppose anything will stop a Russian early warning system from being a broken piece of crap, but that threat hasn't gone away right now, and probably will never go away. To me, that's a bit like saying the best idea of gun safety to walk around with a round in the chamber, safety off with a finger on the trigger, because then you will be paying better attention to where it's pointed, and respectful of it's power. Since the first cold war ended, a lot of the more dangerous weapons were scrapped, vast proportions of extant stockpiles have been mothballed and while the danger is still there, nuclear forces have been at a much lowered alert state meaning it's harder to have a fuckup- with hostilities growing again- going back to the gun metaphor- the safeties are on and weapons holstered. I fear that will probably be reversed as puty poot has already talked about the IRBM ban not really applying any more.
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Sep 8, 2014 13:11
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OhYeah posted:I thought that was in Transdnstnstrnsdstnria. Ironically enough, not even Russia recognizes Transnistria as a state, although every other breakaway state in the region does. They are on de jure Moldovan soil as far as the international community is concerned, it just hasn't been news for over 20 years. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 13:14
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Ardennes posted:Ironically enough, not even Russia recognizes Transnistria as a state, although every other breakaway state in the region does. They are on de jure Moldovan soil as far as the international community is concerned, it just hasn't been news for over 20 years. Well, the article is that Ukrainian officials claim that local powers are recruiting militias in Transdniester for something, which they assume would be aggression towards Moldova (except any such groups could clearly be used against Ukraine just as well); at any rate the headline on that twitter link sure is misleading. Edit: re-reading it seems like the claim is that the Russians are doing the recruiting plus training, and that the Ukrainian official is repeating reports from a Moldovan one. http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/09/08/russia_plans_to_destabilize_situation_in_moldova_nsdc_says_521441 Seems like an English version of the story, don't know anything about the source though (just what google news found for it). OddObserver fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 13:20
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OddObserver posted:Well, the article is that Ukrainian officials claim that local powers are recruiting militias in Transdniester for something, which they assume would be aggression towards Moldova (except any such groups could clearly be used against Ukraine just as well); at any rate the headline on that twitter link sure is misleading. Yeah, true but that is a rather different story that the headline/tweet, it is still interesting obviously. I suspect they be shipping them over to the front rather than open up anything in Moldova itself though. I guess there is also the theory that Russia would attempt to take Odessa at some point too. That said, it is rather ambiguous since supposedly recruited from "southern Moldova," trained in "Moscow, Transnistria and Rostov" and sent off to who knows where. I wonder if they are from Gagauzia? Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 13:27
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Welp. http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreig...y.d?id=65776132
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Sep 8, 2014 13:30
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Well, Estonia had a police officer kidnapped, Lithuania got this, I wonder what's Latvia's "What are you going to do about this, huh?" provocation going to be.
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Sep 8, 2014 13:37
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In other news, NATO and Ukraine finally started their planned military exercise in the Black Sea has started. Russia protests of course and sends a missile cruiser to observe the maneuver. Also some guy from Russia called Alexej Puschkow has demanded clarification from NATO about the purpose of the non-existend weapon deliveries into Ukraine.
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Sep 8, 2014 13:38
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