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OddObserver posted:Reports that one country is blocking further EU sanctions on Russia. Somehow I am reminded of liberum veto... I blame Poland. 
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Sep 8, 2014 16:43
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 23:35 |
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Name and shame the traitors.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:46
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It wouldn't surprise me if it's Germany.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:51
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:Probably the same person who bought me this one. Although I am a bit gutted that I didn't warrant the effort of a picture. Both of you were lucky.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:51
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I hate to say it and I recognize the irony, but whatever7 is Chinese and the Chinese education system treats essentialism as fact. It's not surprising she would be attracted to western intellectuals who oversimplify and orientalize everything; that's very much in step with the Chinese worldview.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:52
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Hasn't one of Slovakia or Hungary been generally pro-Russian? It's probably one of them.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:52
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OddObserver posted:Reports that one country is blocking further EU sanctions on Russia. Somehow I am reminded of liberum veto... Not surprised in the least if it's  .
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Sep 8, 2014 16:53
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SoggyBobcat posted:Hasn't one of Slovakia or Hungary been generally pro-Russian? It's probably one of them. Hungary is the one that's been pretty much explicitly pro-Russian, but I read a couple days ago that Slovakia has actually been even more pro-Russian in the negotiations recently for whatever reason. Any Slovaks in the thread?
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Sep 8, 2014 16:57
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SoggyBobcat posted:Hasn't one of Slovakia or Hungary been generally pro-Russian? It's probably one of them. Those two have denied it.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:57
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SoggyBobcat posted:Hasn't one of Slovakia or Hungary been generally pro-Russian? It's probably one of them. Don't know about Slovakia but Orban is in Putin's pocket.
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Sep 8, 2014 16:57
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Huh, so Putin has a third beachhead. vvv 
Zohar fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 16:58
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Fukuyama and Huntington both ruled in the heady days after the fall of the USSR and before America's relative decline, and that's where they should stay.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:07
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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29001361 I was wondering what happened to her. Glad she's okay. I suppose it's fine that at least no srebrenicas are being committed by either side.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:09
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Zohar posted:Huntington's specific forecast in Clash of Civilizations was that Ukraine would most likely "remain united, remain cleft, remain independent and generally cooperate closely with Russia", which follows as a direct result of his idea that Ukraine is part of the same civilisation as Russia -- "The Russian-Ukrainian relationship ... is the core essential to unity in the Orthodox world". If anything what the current crisis has shown is that Russia is going its own, specifically Russian way, and that the 'Orthodox world' is a phantasm. I don't know where people are getting the idea that the current crisis has proven him to be a great prophet. Well, Huntington's characterizations aside, though, I do think there is something to there being a cultural divide between Eastern and Western Ukraine that goes deeper than even religious lines - after all, Western Ukraine is, on average, more religious than Eastern Ukraine. I think the fault line demarcates how strongly, on average, the populations of these regions feel a uniquely "Eurasian" identity. One could call it a "culturally Orthodox" identity, one which can be seen in practicing Russian Orthodox nationalists and non-religious Communists alike. A lot of this was probably determined by the fact that Eastern Ukraine was in the Russian orbit for longer than the western regions, which were part of Poland and/or other powerful states. Dilkington posted:Fukuyama and Huntington both ruled in the heady days after the fall of the USSR and before America's relative decline, and that's where they should stay. To be fair to Fukuyama, he recanted a lot of his dumb pronouncements, and it seems like he's trying to rehabilitate his image. Dilkington posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that Russia has attempted to reestablish their sphere of influence because of the threat posed by NATO expansion. This is in part because they fear a repeat of the trauma they experienced immediately following the dissolution of the USSR. I've been out of town this past weekend and the thread seems to have moved on past NATO-chat, so I think I'll set that topic aside for now, because it looks like a lot of us have basically reached an impasse. We can pick it up again later if it becomes more immediate relevant. If anyone wants to hear my response to what was posted last on the topic, I'd be happy to give one here or on PM, but for now I'll just comment on this part to clarify my viewpoint: I think that Russia has long felt the necessity of having a sphere of influence, because of their long history of being invaded and overrun by barbarian hordes from the East and backstabbers from the West (as they perceive them, anyway). Every century seems to have its instance of this, except for the 18th century, which is a time they look back on pretty fondly. The Russian perception of these events isn't just that they got overrun, though - many of these invading powers also attempted some form of social engineering or other, at least as far as the Russians see it. They weren't just subject to imperialist powers - they were holding out against cultural movements that they feared were trying to squelch Orthodoxy, Russian culture, and everything they held dear. From their viewpoint, the 1990's were simply the most recent iteration of this pattern, and now many of them are afraid that NATO and EU expansion into Ukraine heralds yet another iteration. They may be wrong to think this, but try telling them that. With regard to my own viewpoint, I'm no Offensive Realist, actually. I think Mearscheimer is correct on a lot of things, but as far as political science schools of thought are concerned, I'm a Constructivist. I think it's pretty useless to talk about things like power and security unless one firmly understands the cultural and historical lens through which a country or a people defines "power" and "security" as concepts. I see myself as falling close to the border between Realism and Constructivism, though - sort of a mirror of Steve Walt, who I like a lot. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 17:09
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Majorian posted:Well, Huntington's characterizations aside, though, I do think there is something to there being a cultural divide between Eastern and Western Ukraine that goes deeper than even religious lines - after all, Western Ukraine is, on average, more religious than Eastern Ukraine. I think the fault line demarcates how strongly, on average, the populations of these regions feel a uniquely "Eurasian" identity. One could call it a "culturally Orthodox" identity, one which can be seen in practicing Russian Orthodox nationalists and non-religious Communists alike. A lot of this was probably determined by the fact that Eastern Ukraine was in the Russian orbit for longer than the western regions, which were part of Poland and/or other powerful states. Of course there is, I agree, though I don't think that has anything to do with Huntington's thesis about civilisations. But remember that, as it is right now, the conflict we're seeing isn't taking place over the famous Ukrainian divide -- it's between what's now a largely politically united Ukraine and fringe separatists in the very far east of the country. The fact that the rebels have increasingly lapsed into being a Potemkin movement propped up entirely by direct Russian support suggests to me that this divide is not nearly as important to the current crisis as it's sometimes made out to be, as it appears to be superseded both by generic economic factors and by the immediate interests of concrete, state-directed geopolitics. If anything like what we could call the supremacy of cultural factors thesis were true, we would have expected the east-west divide in Ukraine to explode as soon as the conflict emerged -- and that's what many Russians seemed to expect. But, despite the short-lived pro-Russian movement in the east, that's not what happened.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:16
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Majorian posted:One could call it a "culturally Orthodox" identity, one which can be seen in practicing Russian Orthodox nationalists and non-religious Communists alike. The majority of Orthodox Christians are not Russian, and only half of Eastern Orthodox Christians are in the former USSR. This would be an extremely poor choice of naming.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:21
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my dad posted:The majority of Orthodox Christians are not Russian, and only half of Eastern Orthodox Christians are in the former USSR. This would be an extremely poor choice of naming. Well, but my point is, that mindset ties back to Russia's cultural identification with Byzantium. A great deal of Byzantine history was all about defending Orthodoxy, which it perceived as "true, legitimate" Christianity and therefore true, legitimate culture. Russia picked up this banner once Constantinople fell, and even when it was a Communist, officially atheistic country, its ruling philosophy became "Socialism in one country." It's a cultural mindset that's all about defending itself and enduring the siege of invading cultural movements, and I think it tells the educated observer a lot about how Russia, Eastern Ukraine, and other pro-Moscow populations behave, and why they do so. e: Zohar posted:Of course there is, I agree, though I don't think that has anything to do with Huntington's thesis about civilisations. But remember that, as it is right now, the conflict we're seeing isn't taking place over the famous Ukrainian divide -- it's between what's now a largely politically united Ukraine and fringe separatists in the very far east of the country. I don't think it's quite so clear-cut, though - as obvious as it is that the separatist movement is, in fact, propped up and blatantly supplied by Moscow, it also seems to me like there is some passive support for the movement among many Eastern Ukrainians. That doesn't mean that they should be allowed to secede, obviously - after all, most Ukrainians in the region don't want to secede. But it does suggest that this is all part of a much longer, deeper cultural struggle that won't simply go away once Putin is out of power. And I know that's not what you're suggesting, obviously, but I do think the deeply-seated, enduring nature of this crisis deserves to be underlined. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 17:36
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OddObserver posted:Reports that one country is blocking further EU sanctions on Russia. Somehow I am reminded of liberum veto... ten bucks say it's Hungary
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Sep 8, 2014 17:38
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skipThings posted:ten bucks say it's Hungary That would be suspect number 1, although I wouldn't be surprised if it's France either.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:45
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jonnypeh posted:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29001361 well both sides seem to be more and more into intimidation, shaming, kidnapping etc. Kid bullied by pro-ukrainians for posting a pro-russiand vid online apparently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcVuDiMbjEI and Amnesty published a report today about the Aidar battalion: quote:The Ukrainian authorities cannot afford to replicate in the areas they retake, the lawlessness and abuses that have prevailed in separatist held areas. The failure to eliminate abuses and possible war crimes by volunteer battalions risks significantly aggravating tensions in the east of the country and undermining the proclaimed intentions of the new Ukrainian authorities to strengthen and uphold the rule of law more broadly.
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Sep 8, 2014 17:48
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Valiantman posted:Not surprised in the least if it's 1. Nah, it's not us 2. You have my eternal gratitude for bringing back this emoticon
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Sep 8, 2014 18:17
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skipThings posted:ten bucks say it's Hungary Turned out to be Finland, apparently, as they were concerned about reverting them if "the ceasefire holds". (How about once Russia withdraws from all occupied areas, including Crimea?). With an attitude like that, the the Finnish PM should start practicing calling Putin "Grand Duke".
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Sep 8, 2014 18:17
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SA_Avenger posted:Kid bullied by pro-ukrainians for posting a pro-russiand vid online apparently: Wow, that really is some brutal torture right there.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:20
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Fabulous Knight posted:1. Nah, it's not us 2. You have my eternal gratitude for bringing back this emoticon It's a gif. edit: The Finnish Prime Minister denies that we'd be holding anything back. He says the sanctions have been accepted from our part on Friday already. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 18:20
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I'm glad to see support for more sanctions. I think those will do a lot more to get Russia to do what we want it to do than arming the Ukrainian government or sending troops in. Harder to paint it as the West stealth-invading Russia's historic sphere of influence. Yes, the way I phrased that deserves an 
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Sep 8, 2014 18:33
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After doing some cursory research (read: browsing through related news items), I could actually see why Finnish politicians wouldn't be too keen on piling more sanctions on top of the pile.
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Sep 8, 2014 18:48
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PK loving SUBBAN posted:Yeah, I would argue that half these civilizations (if we accept their existence) are more involved in internal conflicts than conflicts with each other and that largely invalidates his 'fault line' theory. They aren't monolithic blocks, and to view them as such is over simplistic. Well I would argue that Iran should get its own civilization just like Japan does. Iran has deep root in much older Persian culture that's unlike that rest of the Arabic Middle East. The Shia and SUnni conflict can boil down to Iran and Saudi fighting for regional dominance. quote:A good amount Sub-Saharan Africa have been fighting a war in the Congo for ~20 years, or dealing with the repercussions there from. Well you can have civil wars inside countries too. That's not what Huntington's theory is for. quote:In the 'Eastern world' China still sees itself as expansionist while the Buddhist states largely hate each other, even if they aren't in hot wars. I find Huntington's theory can explain Japan's behavior a lot better than normal geopolitical analysis. For example, it make more sense for Japan to increase integration with East Asia economy and open immigration to the Asian countries to deal with the low birth rate problem. But Japan has gone out of her way to avoid increase integration with the Asian economy. By Buddist staes, you mean the countries in the indochina peninsula? They are basically dominated by the China and India civilizations and have various allegiance.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:05
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Lufthansa can just buy Finnair the way they did with Swissair.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:09
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Valiantman posted:After doing some cursory research (read: browsing through related news items), I could actually see why Finnish politicians wouldn't be too keen on piling more sanctions on top of the pile. You can certainly understand the logic behind kind of being iffy on sanctions, but on the other hand, and it is possible that I'm just an idiot blinded by ideology and unable to appreciate geopolitics, we are in the EU which is imposing sanctions on Russia and there should be no backing away from that line. We shouldn't hesitate because of "are economy" and neither should Germany or whomever. Russia is acting like a dick and if sanctions help Ukraine in any way then we should back them 100%, even if it harms our economy, as long as our losses aren't ridiculous. Basically, morals and some kind of vague idea of a more unified EU should prevail over economics IMO. I should add that I am disappointed at what seems like 20%-25% of Finns thinking that Russia isn't doing anything wrong and that the US and the EU are largely to blame. I think they'd appreciate some kind of continental solidarity if Russia pulled this kind of poo poo on us, no? It's not much different from the Eurozone crisis and wailing about spending hard-earned Finnish cash on lazy dirty Greeks and Spanish. Fabulous Knight fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 19:16
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https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/508961719960739840 Stay classy Donetsk. 
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Sep 8, 2014 19:19
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I was confused how that makes any sense (are they buying into the idea that it was some sort of spy plane?) but considering the Russian and separatist claim is that the Ukrainian air force shot it down it makes more sense that it's being used as a reminder that the evil nazi Ukrainian government supposedly shot down an airliner.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:29
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Coohoolin posted:Lufthansa can just buy Finnair the way they did with Swissair. Good. Finnair is a mega-failure already, couldn't hurt.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:29
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Fabulous Knight posted:You can certainly understand the logic behind kind of being iffy on sanctions, but on the other hand, and it is possible that I'm just an idiot blinded by ideology and unable to appreciate geopolitics, we are in the EU which is imposing sanctions on Russia and there should be no backing away from that line. We shouldn't hesitate because of "are economy" and neither should Germany or whomever. Russia is acting like a dick and if sanctions help Ukraine in any way then we should back them 100%, even if it harms our economy, as long as our losses aren't ridiculous. I mean, yeah, that's how states should behave, but they usually don't. States usually only behave "morally" or cooperatively when those causes don't interfere with security and economic interests too much. That's the problem with coalition politics: you somehow have to convince all constituent members that the greater gain of a project would be worth more to them than what they themselves might pay for it in terms of economics and security.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:41
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Majorian posted:I mean, yeah, that's how states should behave, but they usually don't. States usually only behave "morally" or cooperatively when those causes don't interfere with security and economic interests too much. That's the problem with coalition politics: you somehow have to convince all constituent members that the greater gain of a project would be worth more to them than what they themselves might pay for it in terms of economics and security.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:44
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You'd think Finland would like to establish a strong precedent for imposing sanctions on Russia when it fucks around with its neighbors. In and of itself, sure, but one component to this that needs to be weighed is whether or not they think sanctions, or at least the type of sanctions we're talking about, will actually work, or if they will actually set a strong, lasting precedent. How much faith they have in their larger EU allies' willingness to keep imposing sanctions if Russia keeps acting up - that's an important piece of the puzzle, I'd guess. I honestly don't know the first thing about Finnish domestic politics, so I'm not assuming anything. But I would imagine that's one component of their hesitancy.
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Sep 8, 2014 19:51
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Majorian posted:In and of itself, sure, but one component to this that needs to be weighed is whether or not they think sanctions, or at least the type of sanctions we're talking about, will actually work, or if they will actually set a strong, lasting precedent. How much faith they have in their larger EU allies' willingness to keep imposing sanctions if Russia keeps acting up - that's an important piece of the puzzle, I'd guess. I honestly don't know the first thing about Finnish domestic politics, so I'm not assuming anything. But I would imagine that's one component of their hesitancy.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:03
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Elukka posted:I was confused how that makes any sense (are they buying into the idea that it was some sort of spy plane?) but considering the Russian and separatist claim is that the Ukrainian air force shot it down it makes more sense that it's being used as a reminder that the evil nazi Ukrainian government supposedly shot down an airliner.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:04
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A Buttery Pastry posted:True, though of course that leaves one with the idea that the Finnish government doesn't really have much faith in anyone actually wanting to come to their aid if they should ever need it. That, or the belief that Russia won't bother them. I would imagine there's a little bit of both. In terms of international relations, Finland is almost like Switzerland at this point - the signal that Russia would send by invading Finland would be very different from the one it's made by invading Ukraine.
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Sep 8, 2014 20:07
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^^^^^^ Let's be real here. It won't have the same effect not because of international politics, but because the Finns would be treated as "real" Europeans (like, says, the Dutch), whose deaths actually matter, unlike these third world Ukrainians, which are only noticeable because Russia is the aggressor in the first place. Grey Fox V2 posted:https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/508961719960739840 I presume you are not referring to them flying a flag under which millions of people were purposefully starved to death, with Donbass region one of the heaviest hit? Well, I bet many of participants are descendants of the Russians sent in to live on top of the Ukrainian graves. At least there don't seem to be the usual Stalin portraits. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 20:12
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 23:35 |
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29108454
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Sep 8, 2014 20:14
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