Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

Actually aren't pacers going to be replaced by the old Thameslink trains (the ones that are now having their FCC branding purged and given the generic TSGN branding)? Not sure why you would need to keep them around if so.

# ? Sep 1, 2014 23:01

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# ? May 25, 2024 19:33

lets go swimming: Sep 6, 2012; EAT THE CHEESE, NICHOLSON!

Metrication posted:

Actually aren't pacers going to be replaced by the old Thameslink trains (the ones that are now having their FCC branding purged and given the generic TSGN branding)? Not sure why you would need to keep them around if so.

The 319s can only go where OHLE is available, so I guess they'll have to keep some for non-electrified lines

# ? Sep 2, 2014 08:00

Jonnty: Aug 2, 2007; The enemy has become a flaming star!

onoflalks posted:

The 319s can only go where OHLE is available, so I guess they'll have to keep some for non-electrified lines

The idea is that the 319s would replace better DMUs on newly-electrified lines, which would then cascade onto Pacer-worked lines and push them off the network. I guess they've realised the numbers don't add up and they'll need all the units they can get their hands on as the network grows over the next 10-20 years.

# ? Sep 2, 2014 08:05

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

As of September 8th, Northern are introducing the Afternoon Peak for all services that are wholly in the West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, and Manchester metro areas. The stated purpose is as part of a deal with DaFT to reduce the subsidy they get.

Most of us are probably surprised that Northern even receive a subsidy. Most of us are then going to realise that the only reason they get it is because the franchise is, by design, unprofitable.

# ? Sep 3, 2014 14:38

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

More Northern news: Clegg appears to have found a backbone, and is kind of getting sick of Pacers (well, aren't we all?). The idea of Pacers running until 2029 as some industry spokesmen are saying beggars belief.

# ? Sep 9, 2014 12:01

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

I've been nominated for a National Rail Award for Outstanding Teamwork as part of the team that sorted out Maidenhead when it flooded! There's about 20 of us going, gotta buy a bowtie.

Bet the loving bar is expensive :/

# ? Sep 9, 2014 13:40

Plasmafountain: Jun 17, 2008

Bozza posted:

I've been nominated for a National Rail Award for Outstanding Teamwork as part of the team that sorted out Maidenhead when it flooded! There's about 20 of us going, gotta buy a bowtie.

Bet the loving bar is expensive :/

Maybe you could trade that bow tie for a level crossings post?

Congrats!

I found a series on youtube thats been strangely entertaining: The Railway - Keeping Britain On Track. You can find it here on this guys youtube channel.

# ? Sep 10, 2014 10:37

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

going back to the thread title for second

quote:

Southeastern has been handed a new four-year deal to run commuter railways in London and Kent, despite having the most dissatisfied passengers of any train operator.

The company, run by Govia � a joint venture of Go-Ahead and the SNCF-owned Keolis � was given a direct award without competition to continue services until June 2018. It is the seventh such deal after the West Coast franchising fiasco ripped up the government's timetable for reletting the railways.

the system is indefensible, and yet it persists with the backing of all the major parties

on the plus side we're going to be allowed to finally use Oyster on the javelin high speed line from St Pancras out through Stratford.

# ? Sep 11, 2014 21:49

Lady Gaza: Nov 20, 2008

Cerv posted:

going back to the thread title for second

the system is indefensible, and yet it persists with the backing of all the major parties

on the plus side we're going to be allowed to finally use Oyster on the javelin high speed line from St Pancras out through Stratford.

Southeastern really are poo poo. I used to commute to Sevenoaks and every day my train would be 'cancelled' but I would see it zoom past at its due time.

Do you have any more info on the HS1 story though? I couldn't find much.

# ? Sep 11, 2014 22:03

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2014-09-11/high-speed-javelin-commuters-allowed-to-use-oyster-cards/
no date mentioned oddly.

article helpfully illustrated with a photo of a train way outside the Oyster validity limit.
they are nice some trains to ride on.

# ? Sep 11, 2014 22:07

Bobstar: Feb 8, 2006; KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

Cerv posted:

going back to the thread title for second

the system is indefensible, and yet it persists with the backing of all the major parties

on the plus side we're going to be allowed to finally use Oyster on the javelin high speed line from St Pancras out through Stratford.

Every time I read the name Govia I can't help picturing Michael Gove trying to run a TOC, telling some poor engineer that he "wrote an article about stations once" and has "strong opinions about trains".

# ? Sep 11, 2014 23:28

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

Cerv posted:

going back to the thread title for second

the system is indefensible, and yet it persists with the backing of all the major parties

on the plus side we're going to be allowed to finally use Oyster on the javelin high speed line from St Pancras out through Stratford.

Two platforms were closed by armed police at London Bridge on thursday, presumably as the result of someone getting very angry at Southeastern being reawarded the franchise.

Govia takes over Thameslink and Great Northern tomorrow. Only good thing about that is that it is a management contract and all the profit has to be handed back to the DfT (who will then hand it out as subsidy to profit making franchises I guess).

# ? Sep 13, 2014 13:26

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension

# ? Oct 1, 2014 10:11

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

When the Bakerloo extension & Crossrail both get on the tube map I look forward to confused people going to the wrong Hayes.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 10:35

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

People already go to the wrong Abbey Road, and get subjected to a barrage of terrible puns from the DLR signs

I also feel sorry for the people who expect to go to Loughborough but instead end up in Camberwell by Loughborough Junction. Also also the people wandering around Whitehall looking for Charing Cross Hospital.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 10:43

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

I also feel sorry for the people who expect to go to Loughborough but instead end up in Camberwell by Loughborough Junction. Also also the people wandering around Whitehall looking for Charing Cross Hospital.

My old man drives trains through Loughborough Jn and is forever getting asked by confused international students where the university is. They should probably get a sign too.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 10:55

tentish klown: Apr 3, 2011

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension

Don't hold your breath:

"TFL bakerloo extension page posted:

If funding is identified, construction could start as early as 2023 (subject to the necessary powers) and the extension could open as early as 2030.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 11:49

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension

I guess the Old Kent Road route will finally use the long-reserved alignment at Bricklayers Arms, but hopefully not the reserved station premises at the actual roundabout (to make the southerly twin of Old Street station) because they've only just got rid of the murder-holes - erm, subways - there and I'd hate to see them restored.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 12:03

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

Old Kent road is the clear TfL preference, I don't know why they even bother offering a choice as they usually offer some gimped alternative. See the 'automated metro' option for Crossrail 2.

We could well end up with the situation that the Bakerloo line extension doesn't go to Camberwell and the Chelsea-Hackney line neither goes to Chelsea or Hackney.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 12:37

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

Though the Bakerloo line over-run tunnels at Elephant point off towards Camberwell, and they'd have to build even more complex trackwork to connect New Cross Gate to Lewisham (New Cross to Lewisham wouldn't involve anything though) so I'm not 100% sure they've thought this through, though NXG allows you to change from the Croydon trains easier so aaaaah decisions.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 12:47

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

I expect the Bromley extension will curve around to subsume the Bromley North line. Kinda useless line, to be honest.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 12:53

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Metrication posted:

Old Kent road is the clear TfL preference, I don't know why they even bother offering a choice as they usually offer some gimped alternative. See the 'automated metro' option for Crossrail 2.

We could well end up with the situation that the Bakerloo line extension doesn't go to Camberwell and the Chelsea-Hackney line neither goes to Chelsea or Hackney.

It's possible they're going to connect Camberwell up to the Overground - there's a long-standing back-burner plan for Overground to take over a chunk of lines into London Bridge and terminate them at "somewhere else". Linking up with Thameslink would be one way to do that (assuming they can expand capacity on the line and build new stations).

# ? Oct 1, 2014 12:55

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

Though the Bakerloo line over-run tunnels at Elephant point off towards Camberwell, and they'd have to build even more complex trackwork to connect New Cross Gate to Lewisham (New Cross to Lewisham wouldn't involve anything though) so I'm not 100% sure they've thought this through, though NXG allows you to change from the Croydon trains easier so aaaaah decisions.

Elephant and Castle-Bricklayers Arms-New Cross Gate lets you dig on a reserved alignment under and alongside the New and Old Kent Roads though, which minimises loving about with clearances and surveying. I'm guessing they're going to stick underground until at least Lewisham (if nothing else the hills around that area are pretty loving punishing for tubes) though so complexities of integrating with existing track mostly don't exist.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 12:59

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

goddamnedtwisto posted:

It's possible they're going to connect Camberwell up to the Overground - there's a long-standing back-burner plan for Overground to take over a chunk of lines into London Bridge and terminate them at "somewhere else". Linking up with Thameslink would be one way to do that (assuming they can expand capacity on the line and build new stations).

I'm guessing that this would involve reopening Camberwell and Walworth Road stations? Take the Wimbledon loop out of the Thameslink and assign it to London Overground in my opinion. Much better use of it.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 13:00

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Metrication posted:

I'm guessing that this would involve reopening Camberwell and Walworth Road stations? Take the Wimbledon loop out of the Thameslink and assign it to London Overground in my opinion. Much better use of it.

Well you can't really reopen them because they were demolished when they expanded the line, but yeah new stations at those locations would make sense.

It would also have the bonus knock-on effect of relieving pressure on Waterloo if they ran trains through from Clapham Junction - in fact they cold do that even without the added headache of taking over some of the London Bridge lines.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 13:16

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

goddamnedtwisto posted:

Well you can't really reopen them because they were demolished when they expanded the line, but yeah new stations at those locations would make sense.

It would also have the bonus knock-on effect of relieving pressure on Waterloo if they ran trains through from Clapham Junction - in fact they cold do that even without the added headache of taking over some of the London Bridge lines.

Actually Camberwell's station building is still there: (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...7b3bc297b5614b4)

Also the rails still part where the platforms exist for both stations, and the passages as well are probably still there so it would be (in theory) relatively easy to reconstruct the stations.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 14:10

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Metrication posted:

Actually Camberwell's station building is still there: (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place...7b3bc297b5614b4)

Also the rails still part where the platforms exist for both stations, and the passages as well are probably still there so it would be (in theory) relatively easy to reconstruct the stations.

Only if they can wangle lots of standards derogations based on grandfather rights. I imagine it'd be easier to demolish and new build than to try and bring the old building up to code.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 14:46

lets go swimming: Sep 6, 2012; EAT THE CHEESE, NICHOLSON!

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension

London Reconnections have done an article on this. I've not read it yet, but their articles are usually pretty good.

# ? Oct 1, 2014 23:14

mrpwase: Apr 21, 2010; I HAVE GREAT AVATAR IDEAS
For the Many, Not the Few

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/13/government-sell-eurostar-election-osborne-channel-tunnel-train

quote:

George Osborne is to announce on Monday that the government is selling its 40% stake in Eurostar before the election.

The chancellor will say he is looking for bids by the end of the month and is hopeful the privatisation of the Channel tunnel train operator will raise up to �300m.

Britain has part-owned Eurostar for the past 20 years, but according to Osborne the sale is part of the Treasury�s plan to reduce the national debt by offloading state assets.

He will say: �I am determined that we go on making the decisions to reform the British economy and tackle our debts. So we will proceed with the potential sale of the UK�s shareholding in Eurostar today.

�Ensuring we can deliver the best quality infrastructure for Britain and the best value for money for the taxpayer are key parts of our long-term economic plan.

�As part of our aim to achieve �20bn from asset sales by 2020, the sale proceeds would make an important contribution to the task of reducing the public sector debt.�

This year Osborne has been busy selling the government�s large minority stake in Lloyds bank to claw back some of the losses dating back to its rescue in 2008, though he has abandoned plans for an open public sale before the election, preferring piecemeal offers to private City institutions.

He will be hoping to avoid a repetition of the Royal Mail debacle, when the government came under heavy fire for selling a large stake for a fraction of its later value, handing huge profits to institutions involved in the sale.

The French state-owned railway company, SNCF, owns 55% of Eurostar, while the state-owned Belgian company, SNCB, owns the remaining 5%.

SNCF has indicated that it is not interested in buying Britain�s stake but has a �last look� right that would allow it to come in at the end of the bidding process and pick up the holding at a 15% premium.

Pension companies, investment funds and infrastructure funds are seen as the likeliest bidders, with the UK government hopeful that the sale will be completed in the first quarter of 2015.

The proposed sell-off comes at a time of debate about private versus public ownership of Britain�s railways amid concern about fare prices and quality of services. Unions voiced strong opposition to the idea of the Eurostar sell-off when it was first floated in the 2013 autumn statement.

Eurostar, which links St Pancras International in London with destinations in France and Belgium, has been enjoying record passenger numbers and has ordered a fleet of new high-speed trains, which will be able to reach speeds of up to 199mph (320km/h).

As Britain�s first custom-built high-speed rail line, it has carried more than 145 million passengers since its services through the Channel tunnel began in 1994. The success of Eurostar has encouraged the government to build a second high-speed line linking London with cities in the Midlands and the north.

Originally a partnership between SNCF, SNCB and British Rail, Eurostar became a single, unified corporate entity in 2010. Britain�s stake, held by London and Continental Railways after BR�s privatisation, passed to the Treasury this year.

The company made a profit of �18.6m in 2013, of which the Treasury received �7.4m. That was up on the �6.5m from profits of �16.3m in 2012.

Osborne is being advised on the sale by the Swiss bank UBS, but is reserving the right not to go ahead if the bids are not high enough.

The Treasury said it wanted to ensure that the taxpayer got value for money from the deal and expects there to be several rounds of bidding before an eventual purchaser for the stake emerges.

The sale will lead to a small reduction in Britain�s �1.4tn national debt but will not affect the government�s preferred measure of the budget deficit, public sector net borrowing.

Other state-owned assets being lined up for sale include the legacy Royal Mail pension assets, the uranium enrichment company Urenco, the income-contingent student loan book and further public sector wireless communication spectrum.

You guys are clever. What, if anything, is positive about this? Surely it's selling a profitable and productive part of the railway industry for short-term gain, but losses in the long term? It looks like naked ideology to me. :argh:

It's great that it mentions Royal Mail - the main problem wasn't the poo poo way they sold it off, the main problem was that they sold it in the first place.

vvv it was a fault in the train's new experimental teleportation device

mrpwase fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Oct 13, 2014

# ? Oct 13, 2014 07:57

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

Well, I didn't know train faults could be selective

# ? Oct 13, 2014 07:59

nuzak: Feb 13, 2012

mrpwase posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/13/government-sell-eurostar-election-osborne-channel-tunnel-train

You guys are clever. What, if anything, is positive about this? Surely it's selling a profitable and productive part of the railway industry for short-term gain, but losses in the long term? It looks like naked ideology to me.

It's great that it mentions Royal Mail - the main problem wasn't the poo poo way they sold it off, the main problem was that they sold it in the first place.

vvv it was a fault in the train's new experimental teleportation device

Short term I guess it reduces the !deficit� figure that opponents can hurl at the tories during debates? Not by much though. Maybe if they hadn't committed to painting them deficit as a personal debt that's due he wouldn't need to be straining himself to attempting to reduce it, or being seen to reduce it. I wonder if he wishes we still had a few nationalised things left to sell... ah well.

See the problem with conservatism is it that eventually you run out of other people's money :smug:

# ? Oct 13, 2014 12:06

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

a one off has no effect on the structural deficit

# ? Oct 13, 2014 12:40

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

mrpwase posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/13/government-sell-eurostar-election-osborne-channel-tunnel-train

You guys are clever. What, if anything, is positive about this? Surely it's selling a profitable and productive part of the railway industry for short-term gain, but losses in the long term? It looks like naked ideology to me.

Financial journalist Paul Lewis sums it up:

@paullewismoney posted:

Chancellor wants to sell 40% stake in Eurostar to raise �300m which will pay off 0.02% of UK's �1,435bn debt. In August he borrowed �11.6bn

It is 100% pointless short-termism to go "look we're being tough, on cracking down on numbers" whilst flogging off more of the family silver.

# ? Oct 13, 2014 17:42

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

Wasn't this already attempted by Labour near the end of the last parliament?

# ? Oct 13, 2014 18:06

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

I'm guessing the idea is to "sell it off while it turns a profit", given that Eurostar's effective monopoly on the Channel Tunnel is going to end Any Day Now.

# ? Oct 13, 2014 18:45

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

Crossrail 2 consultation -

Johnson's preferred route is going for Dalston over Hackney, and keeping Chelsea Kings Road

quote:

Options north of Angel

Considering the option of whether both Hackney Central and/or Dalston Junction are served by Crossrail 2, the 3,841 respondents who selected a preference show a balance of support between the three options:

31% of respondents supported the 2013 option with Crossrail 2 serving both stations
21% of respondents supported Crossrail 2 serving Hackney Central
21% of respondents supported Crossrail 2 serving Dalston Junction.

lol
toss a coin maybe?

quote:

Options for a station in Chelsea

Considering options for the location of the station in Chelsea, and whether a station in Chelsea is supported, there was also a range of support for the three options. Among the 4,008 respondents who selected a preference:

32% of respondents supported the 2013 Crossrail 2 option of the King�s Road location;
24% of respondents supported Crossrail 2 not stopping in the Chelsea area
21% of respondents supported the 2014 Crossrail 2 option of the Chelsea West area location.

There was also notable opposition to Crossrail 2 bypassing the Chelsea area (27% of respondents) and to serving the Chelsea West area (26% of respondents).

Approximately half the stakeholders responded to the question concerning Chelsea. The most popular option among the stakeholders was the 2014 location, in the Chelsea West area (38%, followed by the 2013 location on the King�s Road (32%). The least popular option was a direct link from Victoria to Clapham Junction, with no stop in Chelsea (24%).

24% respondants need a slap

edit: news link http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29804467

Cerv fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Oct 28, 2014

# ? Oct 28, 2014 16:56

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

Here's the preferred routing:

I'm wondering where they're going to put the tunnel portal in the Wimbledon area as there is not a lot of room to cross over from the Kingston side of the tracks to the Tooting side without there being a lot of physical conflicts if the portal is going to be north of the station (which the map implies it is).

# ? Oct 28, 2014 17:55

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

In HS2 news, I've been led to believe that the West Yorkshire Combined Authority (the new form of the old PTE) have met with David Higgins and they're lobbying him to have Leeds HS2 as a through station linked to One North. Wouldn't be surprised if TfGM were doing the same thing.

# ? Nov 21, 2014 22:47

Malcolm XML: Aug 8, 2009; I always knew it would end like ｔｈｉｓ．

mrpwase posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/oct/13/government-sell-eurostar-election-osborne-channel-tunnel-train

You guys are clever. What, if anything, is positive about this? Surely it's selling a profitable and productive part of the railway industry for short-term gain, but losses in the long term? It looks like naked ideology to me.

It's great that it mentions Royal Mail - the main problem wasn't the poo poo way they sold it off, the main problem was that they sold it in the first place.

vvv it was a fault in the train's new experimental teleportation device

�7.4/m a year is piss. Better to sell it for �300m

# ? Nov 22, 2014 00:22

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# ? May 25, 2024 19:33

twoot: Oct 29, 2012

Double-deck trains proposed for Waterloo station lines :pcgaming:

# ? Nov 23, 2014 18:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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