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Infidelicious posted:The problem is they don't do it on a level that makes sense, or consistently. Most specializations have gaping holes in capability, or giant problems due to overall meta issues. They did it for the sake of the RP community of wargame, such as it is. That's why they don't make any goddamn sense.
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Sep 9, 2014 05:44
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Tulip posted:They did it for the sake of the RP community of wargame, such as it is. That's why they don't make any goddamn sense. This is also the same argument they've given for mixed decks, which at this point have very little other reason to exist.
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Sep 9, 2014 05:49
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Scandinavia isn't too bad for mixed decks. Each of those nations has a few standout units that fill the gaps for others. I'm having a lot of fun with Elite Eryx infantry holding chokepoints and 103C/1A1NO Attack-Move charges. Some more SPAAGs would be nice, but the VEAKs are okay for the time being. One of the big saving graces is the Mjolnirs, which will kill any vehicle they're dropped on, no exceptions, and the STRF 9040s for infantry support.
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Sep 9, 2014 06:20
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That's mainly coalitions, which in most of the cases completely make sense. Mixed is where you can take anything NATO or PACT but no prototypes at all. Those decks turned ranked into a min/max poo poo storm after a while, while their only real stated purpose is so people can make the Taiwanese army or whatever. Now I haven't done any RD ranked, but I doubt it's any better since you still pull maps that fit 6 people comfortably in 1v1s. Being able to pick and choose from the best cheap units of every nation makes for very spammy gameplay. Mazz fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 06:26
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I think that's really the big advantage destruction could have these days. Encouraging really spammy ultra low end play means that deck building is about maximizing power in the part of the deck where small differences matter the most and can make or break a deck. Worse yet the prototype system is totally backwards for dealing with it right. Honestly anything that isn't a mainstay front line unit should be made national/coalition only for gameplay's sake. Anything else isn't prevalent to be common in hodgepodge forces anyway.
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Sep 9, 2014 06:47
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They've dug themselves a hole by calling prototypes, "prototypes". Should have been something else like "restricted", that way they could restrict things without opening up a "b-but it's in timeframe!" whinefest every time.
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Sep 9, 2014 07:25
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Tulip posted:They did it for the sake of the RP community of wargame, such as it is. That's why they don't make any goddamn sense. No, the utterly hosed up current state of it was purely for gameplay reasons in their mind.
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Sep 9, 2014 09:53
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Xerxes17 posted:No, the utterly hosed up current state of it was purely for gameplay reasons in their mind. Yeah, in ALB the restrictions were mostly in the slot requirements for the more permissive specializations. Since they took out all slot restrictions for specializations, Eugen decided to nerf them all down in unit selection to compensate. One of the Big Picture problems with the Wargame series as competitive games is that you have to make a ton of important decisions almost sight-unseen, which creates a lot of random clusterfuck situations. There's a good reason games like starcraft start with a much slower buildup of capabilities over the course of a game.
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Sep 9, 2014 12:32
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The last patch got rushed out the door by the publisher, which also effected deck specializations apparently. They were supposed to by adding units to specs rather than taking them away; they are going to add a bunch more units to specializations when the next patch comes.
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Sep 9, 2014 12:48
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Well that (sort of) explains things, though I find it weird that focus would push them to release like that. What it doesn't explain though is why for like a week after the DLC came out there was no response from Eugen except for a couple of cryptic posts that suggested that it was intentional.
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Sep 9, 2014 14:07
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, in ALB the restrictions were mostly in the slot requirements for the more permissive specializations. Since they took out all slot restrictions for specializations, Eugen decided to nerf them all down in unit selection to compensate. ftfy
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Sep 9, 2014 15:44
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On the other hand I would rather not memorize build orders. I think it was Hubis who had the idea that you should have two kinds of points, like minerals and vespene gas, where you start with zero for the latter and it's required for a slew of high end units.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:01
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What if tank/support/helicopter/plane was on a timer before you could call them in or had a buy-in to open the tab?
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Sep 9, 2014 16:12
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Mortabis posted:On the other hand I would rather not memorize build orders. Or launch the game with low points (400 minus CV per player). Then give out 750 more points and score conquest areas every 5 minutes. You got early 5 minutes which is mainly scouting, there's less of a starting panic, it's much harder to lose the game completely in the early rush and you have some idea what to spawn out when you get your first 700 extra points. Incidentally, Uralgraznomod should mod this in.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:14
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Hob_Gadling posted:Or launch the game with low points (400 minus CV per player). Then give out 750 more points and score conquest areas every 5 minutes. You got early 5 minutes which is mainly scouting, there's less of a starting panic, it's much harder to lose the game completely in the early rush and you have some idea what to spawn out when you get your first 700 extra points. The inability to call out counters as needed would be utterly crushing, and the gameplay between reinforcement arrival would be even more boring if the game was even.
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Sep 9, 2014 16:23
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I don't know about unit delays, but airplanes should at least have 15-30 second delays before they physically enter the map. Instant CAS is pretty dumb. Actually, even better would be a randomized delay in that 15-30 time frame. No more timed napalm strikes and a way more realistic air structure. Include A2A, but double their loiter times Mazz fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 16:40
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Was throwing around a mod idea earlier where 'scouting element' type units had 0-5-10 cost but very low availability; it was basically your early game subdeck within a deck. They'd be ghetto'd into the Recon tab, but some existing Recon units would be parceled out to other tabs and Optics would be improved across the board. Infantry/Tank etc. tab units would be 'main force' and have costs as now.
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Sep 9, 2014 17:20
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So, the patch just came out. Some much needed changes to deck specializations. Sadly, no Bkan for Swedish mechanized though.
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Sep 9, 2014 18:12
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You buy your own fob if you want bkans >:|
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Sep 9, 2014 20:43
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Mortabis posted:On the other hand I would rather not memorize build orders. I think it was Hubis who had the idea that you should have two kinds of points, like minerals and vespene gas, where you start with zero for the latter and it's required for a slew of high end units. "Build orders" are just Starcraft's version of 'openings.' That wargame doesn't have an established theory where you can predict your opponents' moves from earlier actions isn't really due to a specific mechanical issue in the game, it's due to there being relatively few players and a not particularly robust competitive environment. That said, memorization as a problem isn't limited to starcraft, nor is it even particularly extreme there: chess has a much bigger problem with how important memorization is (which was in the past considered a strength, but changing norms and values have made it seem rather robotic). In a more robust competitive environment, you'd have a lot less "well, they took x y units, so z would be the best follow through but it's wargame so maybe they'll just take a b c d e f or g for no particular reason." All that said, i'd be interested in seeing how the game plays out if there was some secondary resource, though probably the easiest and least eugenable solution would be "can't call in units above 50 points for the first x minutes, incrementing upwards by 50 points every 5 minutes" or something. e: Xerxes17 posted:No, the utterly hosed up current state of it was purely for gameplay reasons in their mind. Ugh that's depressing, i figured it was to appease the guys who only play cat c USMC decks.
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Sep 9, 2014 21:03
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Mukip posted:The last patch got rushed out the door by the publisher, which also effected deck specializations apparently. They were supposed to by adding units to specs rather than taking them away; they are going to add a bunch more units to specializations when the next patch comes. I love how the second the original patch-log that caused the issue was published, every Marshall simultaneously went "Wait, this is the opposite of what you said  "
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Sep 9, 2014 21:27
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Hob_Gadling posted:Or launch the game with low points (400 minus CV per player). Then give out 750 more points and score conquest areas every 5 minutes. You got early 5 minutes which is mainly scouting, there's less of a starting panic, it's much harder to lose the game completely in the early rush and you have some idea what to spawn out when you get your first 700 extra points. This kind of income scheme was one of the main reasons we really disliked the 1984 mod in ALB. Interesting idea in theory. Not actually fun to play. edit: A few minor issues but new patch... looks pretty nice. Shanakin fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 21:30
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Any idea when Uralmod is going to be updated by the way?
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Sep 9, 2014 22:53
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Dandywalken posted:I love how the second the original patch-log that caused the issue was published, every Marshall simultaneously went "Wait, this is the opposite of what you said The best part was FLX coming out and defending the changes without realising that they were unintentional. 
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Sep 9, 2014 23:10
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Tulip posted:That wargame doesn't have an established theory where you can predict your opponents' moves from earlier actions isn't really due to a specific mechanical issue in the game, it's due to there being relatively few players and a not particularly robust competitive environment. Well it really is due to baked-in mechanics though, there is no period of information-gathering prior to pitched battle. Except for the loading screen - which at most tells you faction, era, and specialty. It might be helpful to know that you could/couldn't face T-90S or Gazelle Celtic, but there is a huge element of uncertainty about what the first, most important, five minutes of the battle will hold. In Starcraft, it is impossible to spawn a mutalisk before the seven minute mark (or whatever), but in Wargame you could be facing a Sovremenniy, or a pack of tanks, or a fleet of helicopters, or IFVs and airplanes all for 1000 points all immediately.
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Sep 9, 2014 23:33
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The maps add a certain predictability; you know that against any decent team on Bloody Ridge they going to double up on the town, send 1+ guys stuff to the middle and hold the other flank with a token force. On Floods, you are going to have 3 players in the middle and one guy holding down both flanks, or one guy in the middle sparing a few units for the river flank. Teams that don't play the map right usually lose the opener and the match. You can guess what type of units you'll be facing based on the sector you are fighting in too; if it's a town area then it'll be a bunch of infantry, helicopters and light/medium armour, over a more open field you'll have tanks, various ATGMs and AGM planes. You're right in that people who play to the meta are few and far between, but that just means most people are usually effortless to beat.
Mukip fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 00:38
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xthetenth posted:Any idea when Uralmod is going to be updated by the way? Kind of been waiting for this patch to drop. Depending on how motivated I am (vasily isn't that keen on updating it for this version) maybe this weekend.... probably not. I've been on something of a plane shooting binge lately.
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Sep 10, 2014 02:53
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 west german mechanized now gets heimatschutzen
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Sep 10, 2014 03:09
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But....do they come in Marder IIs?
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Sep 10, 2014 03:21
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Justin Tyme posted:
NSWP Motorized now gets LStR-40 
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Sep 10, 2014 03:28
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Shanakin posted:Kind of been waiting for this patch to drop. Depending on how motivated I am (vasily isn't that keen on updating it for this version) maybe this weekend.... probably not. I've been on something of a plane shooting binge lately. drat. If I weren't busy at my new job and with stuff my friends rope me into in the few hours I've got at night, I'd offer to help. Maybe the weekend.
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Sep 10, 2014 04:03
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xthetenth posted:drat. If I weren't busy at my new job and with stuff my friends rope me into in the few hours I've got at night, I'd offer to help. Maybe the weekend. I doubt it will be done before the weekend either way. Don't worry about it though.
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Sep 10, 2014 04:13
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:But....do they come in Marder IIs? They're 10 points. West German mechanized is now probably the best deck you can take that is both incredibly spammy (10 and 15 point heimat/jaegers) and comes with the most cost-effective shock troops
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Sep 10, 2014 04:30
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Justin Tyme posted:
With the collective nerfs, you're really better off just getting the old PGrens in M113s or Jagers. Battle rifle and bad AT without the manpower bonus, and lacking the one thig that separates FRG infantry, the MG3. I'm not sure they are really worth spending the 10 points per on. Basically, 20 Pgren will do more then 40 Heimat, and 40 Jager more then 60 Heimat. Mazz fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 04:30
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Mazz posted:With the collective nerfs, you're really better off just getting the old PGrens in M113s. Battle rifle and bad AT without the manpower bonus, and lacking the one thig that separates FRG infantry, the MG3. I'm not sure they are really worth spending the 10 points per on. They are if you use them as a giant-rear end human wave screen through the woods backed up with the 20 point pgrens. Plus, with the 30 point 120mm mortar carriers, it's hands down the most effective infantry deck. Heimatschutzen aren't good in clumps, but if you break them up into individual squads and spread them way out they'll have to split their forces to deal with it all. Since there are only ten points you can cause a lot of confusion for not a lot of points. Have Marder 2s, Weisel Tow 2s and Gepards in the back and bring up as needed. Justin Tyme fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 04:32
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Justin Tyme posted:They are if you use them as a giant-rear end human wave screen through the woods backed up with the 20 point pgrens. Plus, with the 30 point 120mm mortar carriers, it's hands down the most effective infantry deck. I used to use reservists a lot, they really just don't kill anything for the points spent nor do they have that 15 man boost anymore, and while I get the manpower bonus, I'd rather just throw 60 jäger at that kind of thing instead of 100 Heimat. Especially since your PGrens run nearly double the Heimat, they will constantly fall behind once out of their transport.
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Sep 10, 2014 04:35
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Mazz posted:I used to use reservists a lot, they really just don't kill anything for the points spent nor do they have that 15 man boost anymore, and while I get the manpower bonus, I'd rather just throw 60 jäger at that kind of thing instead of 100 Heimat. You use the HS to pin and the 120s to kill. I have been using them to great success, they're not best used to straight up win fights but to keep the other player preoccupied all over the place so you can make it seem like you're attacking from a much larger front. Either they'll freak out and pull attention from other parts of the map after seeing all the units, waste a bomber on them, or spread themselves thin so you can break through with your real units. It's map dependent, but on mechanized you get all the infantry slots anyway and a single card won't hurt.
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Sep 10, 2014 04:39
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Reservists are really bad now. Line infantry is way more cost efficient. Scandinavian reserves are the only "good reservists" left and they suck because they end up costing the same as line infantry. Although as previously mentioned, Scandiboo infantry in general is jacked. Basically everything is like 5pts too high for no good reason in ALB. They're basically 1/5th as good, for 2/3rds the price. The only thing they really have going for them now is their availability but even a low availability nation can pump out enough line infantry these days for it not to matter much. Shanakin fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 04:53
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Reservists are great and any deck that has the option should get a card of them. In a lot of cases you don't need effective infantry; you just need warm bodies sitting in buildings while bombs and artillery rain down on whatever they are fighting. Also, you don't buy them in huge mobs of 40 guys. You buy them in pairs like any other infantry and spread them around for coverage; the point is that they take just as long to kill as other infantry for half or less of the price. Other nations with flamethrower troops work well with reservists too, since flames break up the infantry fight to make the reservists die even slower and you only lose a trivial amount of points if they start sending bombers in. Heimaschuzten are pretty good as far as reservists go; their battle rifles have improved accuracy without any RoF penalty compared to other reservists*, their LAW has decent accuracy unlike most outdated AT weapons, have a 5pts transport and are available in mech for a free veterancy step. It figures that WG would get a better squad of reservists than everybody else. Jagers are OK, but with six cards of Panzergrens, anything worth the effort may as well be done by shock troops. WG mech now gets M110s (howitzer artillery) too, 4 at hardened vet, whose accuracy is nearly equivalent to high-end artillery. They take a while to aim but their shots are HE10, so you can pretty much just blind-fire them at a bunch of stuff and get easy kills if you are good at guessing. Plus, they consume hardly any supplies. Britain & USA also get these things in several deck specs. *Alright then, it turns out the reservist SLR is just rubbish. Mukip fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 09:38
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Mukip posted:Reservists are great and any deck that has the option should get a card of them. In a lot of cases you don't need effective infantry; you just need warm bodies sitting in buildings while bombs and artillery rain down on whatever they are fighting. 2. The battle rifles used to be clones of each other but in the militia dps shake up they appear to have randomly given the G3 +10% static acc and the SLR +5% stabs. I'm sure this seemed fair at the time  Blindicide is accurate, I'll give you that but the best is probably the LRAC-73, with much higher AP (notably enough to 1hit most cheap transports) and almost as good accuracy. Back when they were 15men I would whole heartedly agree with you that they were excellent, despite their lovely weapons, at filling building slots and the like. A human wall. The 10pt Militia are possibly okay. You're still paying 2/3rds the price for about 1/5th the strength, which I note has an indirect effect on survivability in infantry combat, The 15 and 20pt reserves are just dumb however. Hjemmevaernet maybe being the sole borderline exception. I suppose if you just need something to sit in the path of bombs it might as well be reserves (if you have access to okay ones) but otherwise they're really trash and even line infantry carve through them pretty quick. edit: actually the G3 wasn't given +10. It's the same as before (lower RoF aside), the SLR got -10% static accuracy for 5% stabs. lol edit2: Actually with the long rifle and the LRAC, in a 5pt transport, the Reservistes are a better milita to take in a eurocore deck. Shanakin fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 10:04
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