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axeil
Feb 14, 2006

My Imaginary GF posted:

poo poo's real bad

:stare: I hadn't even realized how bad things had gotten there. It sounds like the best case scenario is serious instability and possible revolution, the middle case is massive social upheaval and lots of starvation and the worst case scenario is "West Africa becomes a wasteland due to society collapsing."

As if Africa didn't have enough problems to deal with :smith:

axeil fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Sep 6, 2014

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Johnny Cache Hit
Oct 17, 2011

axeil posted:

:stare: I hadn't even realized how bad things had gotten there. It sounds like the best case scenario is serious instability and possible revolution, the middle case is massive social upheaval and lots of starvation and the worst case scenario is "West Africa becomes a wasteland due to society collapsing."

As if Africa didn't have enough problems to deal with :smith:

WHO is forecasting Monrovia needs an additional 800 beds in isolation wards for treating patients. That's almost triple the current number in the entire country.

It's a nightmare.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Johnny Cache Hit posted:

WHO is forecasting Monrovia needs an additional 800 beds in isolation wards for treating patients. That's almost triple the current number in the entire country.

It's a nightmare.

Just a reminder: 80 beds requires 230 support staff; 2,300 support staff for Monrovia. 800:2,300 isn't a sustainable case management load if it goes an order or two higher. 8,000:23,000, or in two to six months, 80,000:230,000. Sierra Leone issued a call for 23,000~ employes recently, with salary paid at Western rates. About $500/day (USD) for staff [including the 1/10 HCW contracting EBV and the $25,000 life insurance offered with an estimated CFR of 70%, could use an estimated rate for contact tracer infections and burial team infections], 500*23,000 = $11,500,000 daily direct (KPMG monitoring) salary costs in Sierra Leone for the next 6 months with the staffing levels required for September, or, $2,070,000,000 salary cost for the ebolavirus outbreak in Sierra Leone paid for by WHO. Does not include any costs other than wages and benefits paid directly to Leonese employes and monitored by KPMG, so I expect the salaries and insurance to actually go through.

E: Note, this is a full quarter of Sierra Leone's yearly GDP.

I'm on my mobile and don't have a good way to do it, if anyone has the time to go through: http://health.gov.sl/?page_id=583

Sierra Leone's daily situation reports and graph out the contact tracing (new listed/new illness/total contacts/completed 21 days) I think it'd make for a pretty easy visual on the growing rate of the crisis.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Sep 6, 2014

ChairMaster
Aug 22, 2009

by R. Guyovich
So just wondering, the only ways to stop or even slow down the Ebola outbreak in these countries are by having a proper hardass quarantine where the soldiers shoot anyone who tries to leave, having an adequate number of doctors and hospital space, and somehow teaching millions and millions of people living in some of the most hosed up countries on the planet how germ theory works. Is there like a fourth thing that could help?

Are you guys still sure that a low millions casualty count isn't likely?

Spazzle
Jul 5, 2003

ChairMaster posted:

So just wondering, the only ways to stop or even slow down the Ebola outbreak in these countries are by having a proper hardass quarantine where the soldiers shoot anyone who tries to leave, having an adequate number of doctors and hospital space, and somehow teaching millions and millions of people living in some of the most hosed up countries on the planet how germ theory works. Is there like a fourth thing that could help?


A vaccine.

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009



ASHERAH DEMANDS I FEAST, I VOTE FOR A FEAST OF FLESH

Spazzle posted:

A vaccine.

Basically this is the only chance they have. But the odds of an effective vaccine getting out before everything gets too hosed up to actually be able to deploy a vaccine in large scale? :cry:

Arsenic Lupin
Apr 12, 2012

This particularly rapid💨 unintelligible 😖patter💁 isn't generally heard🧏‍♂️, and if it is🤔, it doesn't matter💁.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/06/sierra-leone-lockdown-ebola-outbreak Médecins sans Frontières: Please don't put in a hardass quarantine. It will make things worse.

quote:

A four-day nationwide lockdown announced by the Sierra Leone government in a bid to contain the biggest ever outbreak of Ebola could instead exacerbate the spread of the disease, aid agencies have warned.

From 18 to 21 September people across the west African nation will not be allowed to leave their homes, a senior official in the president's office said on Friday.

But Médecins sans Frontières (MSF) raised concern about the drastic step, warning that it could lead people to try to conceal infections from the authorities.

A spokeswoman said: "It has been our experience that lockdowns and quarantines do not help control Ebola as they end up driving people underground and jeopardising the trust between people and health providers. This leads to the concealment of potential cases and ends up spreading the disease further."

Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!
Dinosaur Gum
Edit: I can't tell between the GBS thread and the DND one I guess :doh:

Evilreaver fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Sep 6, 2014

New Division
Jun 23, 2004

I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.
I highly doubt the ability of these governments to actually enforce even a straight up "kill everything that tries to leave" quarantine, much less a more nuanced quarantine. Hell, Liberia's government seems to be teetering on the point of a straight up breakdown.

Pillowpants
Aug 5, 2006

My Imaginary GF posted:

Just a reminder: 80 beds requires 230 support staff; 2,300 support staff for Monrovia. 800:2,300 isn't a sustainable case management load if it goes an order or two higher. 8,000:23,000, or in two to six months, 80,000:230,000. Sierra Leone issued a call for 23,000~ employes recently, with salary paid at Western rates. About $500/day (USD) for staff [including the 1/10 HCW contracting EBV and the $25,000 life insurance offered with an estimated CFR of 70%, could use an estimated rate for contact tracer infections and burial team infections], 500*23,000 = $11,500,000 daily direct (KPMG monitoring) salary costs in Sierra Leone for the next 6 months with the staffing levels required for September, or, $2,070,000,000 salary cost for the ebolavirus outbreak in Sierra Leone paid for by WHO. Does not include any costs other than wages and benefits paid directly to Leonese employes and monitored by KPMG, so I expect the salaries and insurance to actually go through.

E: Note, this is a full quarter of Sierra Leone's yearly GDP.

I'm on my mobile and don't have a good way to do it, if anyone has the time to go through: http://health.gov.sl/?page_id=583

Sierra Leone's daily situation reports and graph out the contact tracing (new listed/new illness/total contacts/completed 21 days) I think it'd make for a pretty easy visual on the growing rate of the crisis.

The SiTreps only go back to August 13th, but what I can tell cases tripled from w/e 8/16 to w/e 8/23 and have stayed at that level for the past 3 weeks.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 203 days!
Er, re: hypothetical quarentine, the rich not giving a gently caress about the poor won't take the form of expecting them to come in to work. They won't want infected poors breaking quarantine and Very Serious People will reassure them that shooting anyone who tries to is perfectly okay.

They just won't give a gently caress if they lose their home because they missed too much work.

E: expect right-wing media to depict Ebola patients (black people) as berserker zombies.

Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Sep 7, 2014

Pillowpants
Aug 5, 2006

quote:


New Listed New Cases Contacts Completed 21 Days
8/28-9/3 295 193 1305 905
8/21-8/27 276 172 1158 588
8/14-8/20 234 61 820 684
8/8-8/13 215 50 700 600

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Thanks, thats what I've suspected is happening. 8-10 days until an individual is contagious, 7-11 days until an individual is dead. New infections of non-HCW seem to be polarized towards the first 3 days of symptoms if taken to a hospital equipped for ebola isolation with procedures and PPE (not allowing churhgroups into the room to perform a healing ritual), to immediate family if left outside hospital until death, and to community upon death from burial ritual.

E:

Or, have a graph and explanation from this blog:

http://virologydownunder.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/case-number-changes-between-ebola-virus.html?m=1

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Sep 7, 2014

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/07/ebola-trial-vaccine-monkeys-ten-months-protect

Really hope some of these work out. Hard to see any other realistic solutions right now.

Pillowpants
Aug 5, 2006
Do you want me to continue to take the data down as this goes on?

Evilreaver
Feb 26, 2007

GEORGE IS GETTIN' AUGMENTED!
Dinosaur Gum

Pillowpants posted:

Do you want me to continue to take the data down as this goes on?

Yes! Yes please, charts and graphs are the best, and you may well be the only one actually keeping score.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Pillowpants posted:

Do you want me to continue to take the data down as this goes on?

Its useful in the sense that it shows trends visually that would otherwise be hard to identify. Especially as PIDs aren't going to be public from this for decades.

sofokles
Feb 7, 2004

Fuck this

You have several times stated that Ethiopia would be a most likely next spread step from an outbreak in Nigeria. Would you care to elaborate on that as I find that intriguing given the distance between the countries.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

sofokles posted:

You have several times stated that Ethiopia would be a most likely next spread step from an outbreak in Nigeria. Would you care to elaborate on that as I find that intriguing given the distance between the countries.

Sure. And apologies for the r where there should be a t; slippy fingers on my phone.

So, Ethiopia is one of the larger national airline carriers for international travel in Africa. Most of their flights are intra-continental, whereas AirFrance and Lufthansa are mostly inter-continental. IMO, the screening process for EthiopianAir flights isn't as strict as for a European airline, nor are the standards observed on the flight. For instance, its more likely that EthiopianAir flights will have less resources available to their crews than other prestige carriers; practical terms, less defibrilators, less gloves and pukebags. If someone gets sick on an EthiopianAir flight, its more likely to be chalked up to another tropical disease than a European carrier; further, Ethiopian national reporting standards for sick passengers on airline flights isn't known for a reputation of meeting western standards.

So the most likely intra-continental spread via airline routes is through prestige carriers that primarily operate crews accustomed to intra-continental, and not inter-continental, standards. Hence why Ethiopia and Ghana are at the highest risk for air importation of an index case.

I'll send a text and see if I can find the model a friend worked on. Think of airlines without western standards of operation as the most likely to carry an index case without identifying the case soon enough to isolate and prevent an outbreak.

Pillowpants
Aug 5, 2006

Evilreaver posted:

Yes! Yes please, charts and graphs are the best, and you may well be the only one actually keeping score.

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm exhausted, but I'm not entirely sure why those 4 specific numbers are important when combined together?

ukle
Nov 28, 2005
Surprised nobody mentioned that the US has headed MSF's call to send in Military assets. Not sure there is any details on numbers / units etc.

The UK has also followed suit this afternoon as well, so there could be hope of this being stopped within the next 6-12 months. It is rather depressing how the rest of the world is basically ignoring it.

edit: UK is going to build and man one 62 capacity treatment center. Just need another 20 more of them and they might have enough cover.

Although given MSF is expecting the numbers in Liberia to be in the many thousands infected within weeks, it just shows you how much of a up hill struggle this is.

ukle fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Sep 8, 2014

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich
Crossposting from GBS thread. Recommend to read in entirity.

An email from WHO posted:


Situation in Liberia: non-conventional interventions needed

8 September 2014

During the past weeks, a WHO team of emergency experts worked together with President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf and members of her government to assess the Ebola situation in Liberia.

Transmission of the Ebola virus in Liberia is already intense and the number of new cases is increasing exponentially.

The investigative team worked alongside staff from the Ministry of Health, local health officials, and other key partners working in the country.

All agreed that the demands of the Ebola outbreak have completely outstripped the government’s and partners’ capacity to respond.

Fourteen of Liberia’s 15 counties have now reported confirmed cases.

Some 152 health care workers have been infected and 79 have died. When the outbreak began, Liberia had only one doctor to treat nearly 100,000 people in a total population of 4.4 million people. Every infection or death of a doctor or nurse depletes response capacity significantly.

Liberia, together with the other hard-hit countries, namely Guinea and Sierra Leone, is experiencing a phenomenon never before seen in any previous Ebola outbreak. As soon as a new Ebola treatment facility is opened, it immediately fills to overflowing with patients, pointing to a large but previously invisible caseload.

Of all Ebola-affected countries, Liberia has the highest cumulative number of reported cases and deaths, amounting, on 8 September, to nearly two thousand cases and more than one thousand deaths. The case-fatality rate, at 58%, is also among the highest.

Situation in Montserrado county

The WHO investigation concentrated on Montserrado county, which includes Liberia’s capital, Monrovia. The county is home to more than one million people. The teeming West Point slum, which has no sanitation, little running water, and virtually no electrical supplies, is also located in Monrovia, and is adjacent to the city’s major market district.

In Montserrado county, the team estimated that 1000 beds are urgently needed for the treatment of currently infected Ebola patients. At present only 240 beds are available, with an additional 260 beds either planned or in the process of being put in place. These estimates mean that only half of the urgent and immediate capacity needs could be met within the next few weeks and months.

The number of new cases is moving far faster than the capacity to manage them in Ebola-specific treatment centres.

For example, an Ebola treatment facility, hastily improvised by WHO for the Ministry of Health, was recently set up to manage 30 patients but had more than 70 patients as soon as it opened.

WHO estimates that 200 to 250 medical staff are needed to safely manage an Ebola treatment facility with 70 beds.

The investigation team viewed conditions in general-purpose health facilities as well as Ebola-specific transit and treatment facilities.

The John F Kennedy Medical Center in Monrovia, which was largely destroyed during Liberia’s civil war, remains the country’s only academic referral hospital. The hospital is plagued by electrical fires and floods, and several medical staff were infected there and died, depleting the hospital’s limited workforce further.

The fact that early symptoms of Ebola virus disease mimic those of many other common infectious diseases increases the likelihood that Ebola patients will be treated in the same ward as patients suffering from other infections, putting cases and medical staff alike at very high risk of exposure.

In Monrovia, taxis filled with entire families, of whom some members are thought to be infected with the Ebola virus, crisscross the city, searching for a treatment bed. There are none. As WHO staff in Liberia confirm, no free beds for Ebola treatment exist anywhere in the country.

According to a WHO staff member who has been in Liberia for the past several weeks, motorbike-taxis and regular taxis are a hot source of potential Ebola virus transmission, as these vehicles are not disinfected at all, much less before new passengers are taken on board.

When patients are turned away at Ebola treatment centres, they have no choice but to return to their communities and homes, where they inevitably infect others, perpetuating constantly higher flare-ups in the number of cases.

Other urgent needs include finding shelters for orphans and helping recovered patients who have been rejected by their families or neighbours.

Last week, WHO sent one of its most experienced emergency managers to head the WHO office in Monrovia. Coordination among key partners is rapidly improving, aiming for a better match between resources and rapidly escalating needs.

Implications of the investigation

The investigation in Liberia yields three important conclusions that need to shape the Ebola response in high-transmission countries.

First, conventional Ebola control interventions are not having an adequate impact in Liberia, though they appear to be working elsewhere in areas of limited transmission, most notably in Nigeria, Senegal, and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Second, far greater community engagement is the cornerstone of a more effective response. Where communities take charge, especially in rural areas, and put in place their own solutions and protective measures, Ebola transmission has slowed considerably.

Third, key development partners who are supporting the response in Liberia and elsewhere need to prepare to scale up their current efforts by three- to four-fold.

As WHO Director-General Dr Margaret Chan told agencies and officials last week in New York City and Washington, DC, development partners need to prepare for an “exponential increase” in Ebola cases in countries currently experiencing intense virus transmission.

Many thousands of new cases are expected in Liberia over the coming three weeks.

WHO and its Director-General will continue to advocate for more Ebola treatment beds in Liberia and elsewhere, and will hold the world accountable for responding to this dire emergency with its unprecedented dimensions of human suffering.

Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
This is an interesting point

quote:

Second, far greater community engagement is the cornerstone of a more effective response. Where communities take charge, especially in rural areas, and put in place their own solutions and protective measures, Ebola transmission has slowed considerably.

It's pretty clear that even with foreign groups coming in, at the current growth rate of infections, Liberia will never have enough hospital beds, let alone nurses and doctors, to treat all the cases. Training local community groups to handle quarantining and tracing of cases would be a huge help.

Pillowpants
Aug 5, 2006
Is there a good place to find a list of the Liberia sitreps so I can do what I am doing with Sierra Leone?

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Pillowpants posted:

Is there a good place to find a list of the Liberia sitreps so I can do what I am doing with Sierra Leone?

Good question - Yes, there is.

http://reliefweb.int/updates?f%5B0%5D=field_source%3A2619

ReliefWeb is the site where WHO publishes official sitreps it has reviewed.

E:

Looking at Liberian SitRep 114, it looks like theres been a change in management for the better. More detailed report, more detailed needs, more detail pipeline info.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Sep 9, 2014

Johnny Cache Hit
Oct 17, 2011

ukle posted:

MSF's call to send in Military assets.

MSF asking for military involvement is a pretty telling indication of what a poo poo show this is.

As an organization they avoid any involvement from government/military sources: they wouldn't take any money from any Nato or EU countries during the Kosovo air strikes.

The only other time they've actually requested military involvement was to intervene in the Rwandan massacre.

Ebola Roulette
Sep 13, 2010

No matter what you win lose ragepiss.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/09/09/oxford-study-predicts-15-more-countries-are-at-risk-of-ebola-exposure/

quote:

According to the Oxford model, in addition to the seven countries who have reported Ebola outbreaks in this epidemic and in past outbreaks since the disease was identified 1976, 15 other countries are at risk. There are five known strains of Ebola, and the one currently causing the West African outbreak, Zaire, is the most virulent. The other strains, Sudan, Taï Forest and Bundibugyo, have caused contained outbreaks in Ivory Coast, Sudan, and Uganda in the past. And the Reston species has not caused any known outbreaks, according to the World Health Organization.

According to the Oxford prediction, these countries are at risk of animal-to-human transmission of Ebola by virtue of their geography: Nigeria, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Ghana, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Angola, Togo, United Republic of Tanzania, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Burundi, Equatorial Guinea, Madagascar and Malawi.

Zeroisanumber
Oct 23, 2010

Nap Ghost

Xandu posted:

This is an interesting point


It's pretty clear that even with foreign groups coming in, at the current growth rate of infections, Liberia will never have enough hospital beds, let alone nurses and doctors, to treat all the cases. Training local community groups to handle quarantining and tracing of cases would be a huge help.

Several of the doctors at my workplace head out to West Africa every couple of years to hold a three week clinic that trains "bush medics" who are taught to suture wounds, set bones, and the basics of infectious disease prevention and how to set up a quarantine. When this all kicked off, I wondered if those people would have any effect on slowing down the spread of the disease out in the hinterlands.

School Nickname
Apr 23, 2010

*fffffff-fffaaaaaaarrrtt*
:ussr:

Would dogs be in that animal list?

Johnny Cache Hit
Oct 17, 2011

School Nickname posted:

Would dogs be in that animal list?

They captured and necropsied rats, bats, monkeys, and cane rats. That's not to say dogs couldn't carry it, just that they weren't checked.

Sheng-Ji Yang
Mar 5, 2014


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/09/09/gop-house-guts-white-houses-request-for-funds-to-fight-and-contain-ebola/

House Republicans have gutted a White House-sponsored bill that would direct funding to the fight to contain the hemorrhagic fever Ebola, which is raging out of control in multiple African countries.

The Hill blog reported that a source familiar with the budget negotiations confirmed that House Appropriations Committee Chairman Hal Rogers (R-KY) will agree to provide only $40 million of the $88 million the Obama administration asked for in its 2015 budget.

Slaan
Mar 16, 2009



ASHERAH DEMANDS I FEAST, I VOTE FOR A FEAST OF FLESH

You bénin isn't on that list :dance:

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Slaan posted:

You bénin isn't on that list :dance:

If I remember correctly, you teach in Benin, right? I don't suppose you have PM or have another way to get in touch -- I work on Ugandan educational development and would be interested in picking your ear, except its a bit outside the bounds of this thread.

CAPS LOCK BROKEN
Feb 1, 2006

by Fluffdaddy
Ebola evacuations to US greater than previously known

:tinfoil:

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

No :tinfoil: about it. One of the biggest sticking points in recruiting trained volunteers to go to the hotzone is an implicit guarantee of medevac if any symptoms develop or if exposure is known. I can PM you some interesting State cables on the subject if you have plat?

Torpor
Oct 20, 2008

.. and now for my next trick, I'll pretend to be a political commentator...

HONK HONK

I really don't think this type of thing is necessarily such a great idea. US Hospitals are not good at stopping contagious pathogens.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Torpor posted:

I really don't think this type of thing is necessarily such a great idea. US Hospitals are not good at stopping contagious pathogens.

Yes they are.

My Imaginary GF
Jul 17, 2005

by R. Guyovich

Nintendo Kid posted:

Yes they are.

Yes, they are*. Extremely so, especially for Ebolavirus or anything that really, really scares HCWs no matter their experience or position.

*as long as they have strict handwashing procedures which are followed and have a check-safe (whats the term for it?) to make sure everyone does it after every HCW-patient interaction.

My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Sep 10, 2014

AVeryLargeRadish
Aug 19, 2011

I LITERALLY DON'T KNOW HOW TO NOT BE A WEIRD SEXUAL CREEP ABOUT PREPUBESCENT ANIME GIRLS, READ ALL ABOUT IT HERE!!!

Torpor posted:

I really don't think this type of thing is necessarily such a great idea. US Hospitals are not good at stopping contagious pathogens.

These people are going into special isolation units designed to keep stuff like ebola under control. The hospitals that contain these isolation units are going to be extremely careful because of the risk to staff and patients. There is really very little risk as long as some fairly simple protocols are followed.

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Xandu
Feb 19, 2006


It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.
The last isolation unit I was in at a hospital had a locked door, negative (or maybe positive, I can't remember) air flow, and nobody entered without wearing a mask and gloves (while also making sure I was wearing a mask). And that's just at an average hospital, the places these people are being evacuated to tend to have special wings to make sure there's absolutely no spread.



My Imaginary GF posted:

No :tinfoil: about it. One of the biggest sticking points in recruiting trained volunteers to go to the hotzone is an implicit guarantee of medevac if any symptoms develop or if exposure is known. I can PM you some interesting State cables on the subject if you have plat?

Yeah, this is why the Pentagon is opening up a hospital strictly for foreigners. It sounds bad, but it's actually really important, because you need to a way to treat these people, and evacuating them isn't cheap or always an option depending on how bad it gets.

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