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Quickest thing I could find: FF #40. Uncle Boogeyman posted:I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say 20 issues, but the first couple FF issues are admittedly slightly rocky. When it hits its stride it's unbeatable though. You can see steady improvement as the book goes. I think issue 12 (actually, about 18 months into the run since the first year was bimonthly) is the first time that you can get a real feel for the FF as it would be at the height of the Lee/Kirby run, but they don't really get consistent for about another year. And then once you hit issue #30 it's all fantastic (heh) up to about issue #70. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 17:27
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Hahaha, that is classic silver age with the over-explanations.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:28
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Random Stranger posted:The golden age stuff is even worse where there's only a few books that I'd recommend for anything past a historical view. Yeah I won't blame anyone for not being able to get into Golden Age comics. Not being able to get into Silver Age stuff just makes me sad though. I think with modern audiences there's a bit too much desire for... I'm not gonna say realism, because superhero comics are never gonna be realistic, but let's say "grounding," and it's not a trend I'm a fan of. People go apeshit over Hickman these days but almost every superhero comic I read by him has everyone talking like they're in a particularly dry, unfunny episode of The West Wing. I much prefer my Silver Age wackiness. The dialogue in Fantastic Four is on-loving-point - nobody has improved on the back-and-forth barbs between The Thing and Johnny Storm since Lee. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 17:28
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Random Stranger posted:Quickest thing I could find: This is a ton of exposition, which is one of the biggest problems with early comics. Everyone always and constantly says what they are doing and why they are doing it. You could not say those words irl and not make them sound natural. I think decompression is a good thing  These adamantium claws can cut through anything even solid steel - see Uncanny X-men, ish every single one Claremont wrote.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:29
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zoux posted:This is a ton of exposition, which is one of the biggest problems with early comics. Everyone always and constantly says what they are doing and why they are doing it. You could not say those words irl and not make them sound natural. Well it does make sense in that these were written for children and people who write for children assume they are very slow.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:30
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zoux posted:I think decompression is a good thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo
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Sep 10, 2014 17:32
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zoux posted:This is a ton of exposition, which is one of the biggest problems with early comics. Everyone always and constantly says what they are doing and why they are doing it. You could not say those words irl and not make them sound natural.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:32
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I read almost the whole Claremont run and I did not like it at all.CharlestheHammer posted:Well it does make sense in that these were written for children and people who write for children assume they are very slow. It absolutely makes sense, but as an adult I don't like stuff geared toward children. I don't understand how people can defend the early stuff as any good outside of nostalgia.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:41
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This is where we part ways, his dialogue is the most readable of the silver age books. It still has its issues.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:42
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CharlestheHammer posted:This is where we part ways, his dialogue is the most readable of the silver age books. Bang. You dead.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:43
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Random Stranger posted:You can see steady improvement as the book goes. I think issue 12 (actually, about 18 months into the run since the first year was bimonthly) is the first time that you can get a real feel for the FF as it would be at the height of the Lee/Kirby run, but they don't really get consistent for about another year. And then once you hit issue #30 it's all fantastic (heh) up to about issue #70. It does dip a little towards the end, but I think it stays good longer than that. The issue where they introduce Agatha Harkness is super sick. zoux posted:It absolutely makes sense, but as an adult I don't like stuff geared toward children. I don't understand how people can defend the early stuff as any good outside of nostalgia. I mean that initial Fantastic Four fun started over 20 years before I was born, so nostalgia isn't really a factor here. I just have an appreciation for the classics, man. Craft is craft. Some people can only appreciate modern art, I get that. You do you. Personally, I enjoy comics from all eras. Like I said, everything has a historical context. Oedipus Rex is heavy on the expositional dialogue too, but I wouldn't question someone putting it on their list of favorite plays.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:48
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zoux posted:I read almost the whole Claremont run and I did not like it at all. You've got some issues buddy.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:50
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I am very brave for standing up for what I believe in.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:52
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:It does dip a little towards the end, but I think it stays good longer than that. The issue where they introduce Agatha Harkness is super sick. Yeah but Sophocles could write better dialogue than Stan Lee.
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Sep 10, 2014 17:53
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Anyone here who didn't read their first Claremont book before the age of 15?
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Sep 10, 2014 17:57
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zoux posted:Anyone here who didn't read their first Claremont book before the age of 15? I didn't actually read comics until I had money, which was not 15. I tell you that.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:04
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zoux posted:I am very brave for standing up for what I believe in. I'm just saying if you didn't like it at all, why did you read so much of it? I'm not bothered by you not liking Claremont.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:04
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Because everyone is constantly all "Claremont run best run" and it was on Unlimited and so I went for it.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:06
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It does kinda say something about the ahistorical, cannibalistic nature of the modern comic book fan that they'll eagerly consume new comics containing the Fantastic Four, Dr. Doom, Annihilus, the Negative Zone, the Inhumans, the Silver Surfer, Galactus, Black Panther, the Kree, the Skrulls, Ronan the Accuser, and the Watcher, and they'll thrill at the possibility of their inclusion in the next big Marvel movie, but the actual comics that originated all of these outstanding characters, concepts and more in a still unparalleled 9 year burst of pure creativity? Nah, those are garbage, don't read those.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:22
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Also garbage: any new property.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:23
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Why don't you go live in a cave and endurance hunt for every meal? Some stuff sucks, even if it's classic. Those comics weren't well written when they were new either.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:24
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:It does kinda say something about the ahistorical, cannibalistic nature of the modern comic book fan that they'll eagerly consume new comics containing the Fantastic Four, Dr. Doom, Annihilus, the Negative Zone, the Inhumans, the Silver Surfer, Galactus, Black Panther, the Kree, the Skrulls, Ronan the Accuser, and the Watcher, and they'll thrill at the possibility of their inclusion in the next big Marvel movie, but the actual comics that originated all of these outstanding characters, concepts and more in a still unparalleled 9 year burst of pure creativity? Nah, those are garbage, don't read those. So do you like Secret Wars?
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Sep 10, 2014 18:25
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zoux posted:So do you like Secret Wars? I have not read Secret Wars. I hear not good things, but I do like Mike Zeck art a lot. How is it?
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Sep 10, 2014 18:26
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It is really really bad, but it also made a lot of changes and introduced a lot of characters.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:27
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:IIRC he didn't get that until much later though. In his initial appearances he was just a dude with a lot of gadgets.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:27
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I have not read Secret Wars. I hear not good things, but I do like Mike Zeck art a lot. How is it? Influential.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:28
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:It does kinda say something about the ahistorical, cannibalistic nature of the modern comic book fan that they'll eagerly consume new comics containing the Fantastic Four, Dr. Doom, Annihilus, the Negative Zone, the Inhumans, the Silver Surfer, Galactus, Black Panther, the Kree, the Skrulls, Ronan the Accuser, and the Watcher, and they'll thrill at the possibility of their inclusion in the next big Marvel movie, but the actual comics that originated all of these outstanding characters, concepts and more in a still unparalleled 9 year burst of pure creativity? Nah, those are garbage, don't read those. I never said they were garbage, I just don't love them like you do. I can recognize good, long-lasting concepts and still find most of the writing/pacing of that era to be extremely verbose and tedious. Kirby I've grown to appreciate a lot, but Lee's dialogue is just not my thing. I wish the opposite were true! I'm pretty new to superhero comics in general, and I've really tried to scope out the entire history and give everything a fair shot. Maybe I'll come around, but right now they're just not the prime examples of what I love about the medium, and I'm not going to pretend I found immense enjoyment in reading them. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 18:28
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Aphrodite posted:Why don't you go live in a cave and endurance hunt for every meal? Reading old comics: a trial of endurance as challenging as subsistence living.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:31
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zoux posted:It is really really bad, but it also made a lot of changes and introduced a lot of characters. Yeah that's about what I've heard. I'll probably still read it at some point, there's a copy at the library and the pull of seeing Mike Zeck draw every Marvel character is strong.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:31
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McSpanky posted:Reading old comics: a trial of endurance as challenging as subsistence living. Those early FFs are rough man.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:33
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Hakkesshu posted:I never said they were garbage, I just don't love them like you do. I can recognize good, long-lasting concepts and still find most of the writing/pacing of that era to be extremely verbose and tedious. Kirby I've grown to appreciate a lot, but Lee's dialogue is just not my thing. Fair enough. I didn't get into them immediately either. Despite others contending that this is all nostalgia talking, I didn't read the original FF run until this year (although they're far from the first silver age comics i've read). My advice: give it a year and then maybe give it another shot. Once you've got a grounding in suoerhero comics and have developed your tastes more, you might find a newfound appreciation. I wish you luck on your journey.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:48
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zoux posted:It is really really bad, but it also made a lot of changes and introduced a lot of characters. There are some excellent sequences in Secret Wars. Spider-Man humiliates the X-Men by being too awesome for them, and Spider-Man beats up Titania, even though she's waaaay stronger than he is. 
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Sep 10, 2014 18:58
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I am so sad Stan Lee is besmirched. Read his and Mobeus Silver Surfer and dare tell me it ain't great. His Spiderman comic strip is better than the actual books. His era is full of great stuff with Ditko, Kirby, etc. Plus he has legit skill and understanding of working with the artist. Conflict yes but tone and direction shift from Ditko to Romita Sr. As example.
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Sep 10, 2014 19:07
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:It does dip a little towards the end, but I think it stays good longer than that. The issue where they introduce Agatha Harkness is super sick. I think it's still good at that point, but they start spinning their wheels a bit. It's no longer the golden era for their run.
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Sep 10, 2014 19:25
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zoux posted:So do you like Secret Wars? An interesting thing about Secret Wars is that the Rom comic used the idea that most of the heroes and villains were off planet for it's "Total War" arc.
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Sep 10, 2014 20:22
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Not everything connects back to ROM UGH!!!!
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Sep 10, 2014 20:25
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Gatts posted:I am so sad Stan Lee is besmirched. Read his and Mobeus Silver Surfer and dare tell me it ain't great. His Spiderman comic strip is better than the actual books. His era is full of great stuff with Ditko, Kirby, etc. Plus he has legit skill and understanding of working with the artist. Conflict yes but tone and direction shift from Ditko to Romita Sr. As example. Every time someone believes Stan Lee actually writes the newspaper strip a dead comic creator denied credit turns in their grave.
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Sep 10, 2014 20:27
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Also  a wild short Orc Stain story appears
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Sep 10, 2014 20:34
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zoux posted:Not everything connects back to ROM UGH!!!! Rom did a LOT of tie in issues.
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Sep 10, 2014 20:38
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Not everything that is influential is great. Basically the influence has lead to things being built on the initial premises, and improving the original formula. The original comics were written in a certain time and place, and while they may seem timeless, they might not be up to everyone's taste. What people like is what they are familiar with and saying that they are wrong for not liking something that is considered "classic" just because it is a classic is a bit insincere.
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Sep 10, 2014 21:03
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