|
Thought this was relevant: Russia moves ISS astronaut training to newly annexed Crimea arstechnica.com posted:The strategic move could put the US and other nations in a diplomatic bind as American, European, and Japanese astronauts-in-training would need to travel to the newly annexed territory without Ukrainian-issued visas. If the foreign crew refuses to travel to Crimea, the astronauts would fail their training and would be disqualified from their trip to the International Space Station (ISS), which is due for a routine crew replacement. http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/09/iss-astronauts-could-be-pawns-in-russia-ukraine-conflict/ Response to Sanctions?
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 17:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 17:28 |
|
|
Cracker King posted:Thought this was relevant: September 12, 2014: Russia annexes the International Space Station, subsidizes vacation trips.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 17:44
|
|
|
Kurnugia posted:September 12, 2014: Russia annexes the International Space Station, subsidizes vacation trips. What percentage of the ISS is/has been ethnically Russian? I think they might have a case for a self-determination or separatist movement.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 17:55
|
|
|
That's such an extremely petty move that I struggle to respond. Basic good-faith negotiation with Russia is hard enough at the moment, relationships are going to become all the more difficult to normalize in the future. I can only assume at this point that's the intention.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
Have this colossal picture of the pipeline network in Europe courtesy of ENTSOG, helpful in the context of reports of shortfalls of gas from Poland and Germany: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/poland-russia-gas-supply-cut-gazprom-tensions-ukraine 
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 18:11
|
|
|
Pellisworth posted:What percentage of the ISS is/has been ethnically Russian? I think they might have a case for a self-determination or separatist movement. I blacked out cancelled bits for the Spaceflight thread, and its a bit old, but it gives you an idea of how much is there. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 18:52
|
|
|
Pellisworth posted:What percentage of the ISS is/has been ethnically Russian? I think they might have a case for a self-determination or separatist movement. They have actually considered it. Note how the plan proposes to detach the Russian modules from the ISS.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 19:03
|
|
|
Yes, but that would happen after the ISS program is done and shortly before it would be deorbited. Russia plans to possibly reuse their modules for a new station, everyone else plans to let theirs burn.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 19:16
|
|
|
Dolash posted:"Dark" overlord?  uncomfortable? Im.. I'm not sure... I just tried to be politically correct. That's american feature is really interesting thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 19:17
|
|
|
I wonder if you'll still sound like that when Putin sends your rear end to die in Ukraine. And then he'll put your mother in prison for being a traitor. Being a traitor meaning mourning for her son. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Sep 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 19:23
|
|
|
Valiantman posted:Right. Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, has issued a statement that the additional sanctions by the EU against Russia are weakening and shaking the Ukranian cease-fire. Which neither EU or Russia is part of. From their pov, Russia brokered a ceasefire when "their side" was winning/making considerable gains, halting "their sides" advances. This was a clear concession towards western demands. In return they get more sanctions on them. Do you think this incentivises further Russian behavior (which will be required, that "seperatists=Russian goverment" talking point is stupid and believing/espousing it actually leads to missed opportunities for the Kievan/Western side) to rein "their side" in?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 19:45
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:From their pov, Russia brokered a ceasefire when "their side" was winning/making considerable gains, halting "their sides" advances. This was a clear concession towards western demands. It does. Russia will either quit now while it's ahead, or keep digging itself deeper. If it wasn't for the Ukranians dying I'd be more than happy to see them dig themselves in a well to China.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:From their pov, Russia brokered a ceasefire when "their side" was winning/making considerable gains, halting "their sides" advances. This was a clear concession towards western demands. I for one would like Russia to take into account the views of Ukraine and the West just once. Just this one time. But no, it's always "MUST MURDER UKRAINIANS AND STEAL THEIR LAND!!!" Also not sanctioning Russia would be showing weakness and Putin only understands strength and violence. Edit: Seriously, it's always understand Russia, Russia feels like that, Russia feels threatened. How about Ukraine? Is Russia a mentally handicapped child with a violent streak and kleptomania? Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Sep 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 19:59
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:From their pov, Russia brokered a ceasefire when "their side" was winning/making considerable gains, halting "their sides" advances. This was a clear concession towards western demands. Are you explicitly denying here that the separatists aren't taking orders from the Russian government? Or that they only exist because of Russian government support? Lucy Heartfilia posted:I for one would like Russia to take into account the views of Ukraine and the West just once. Just this one time. But no, it's always "MUST MURDER UKRAINIANS AND STEAL THEIR LAND!!!" What's kind of ironic here is that the entire "lets try to empathize with Russia" is a pretty goddamn stark example of how NATO nations, post Cold War, have tried to get their people to look at Russia as a misunderstood friend. One more hilarious example of how this Russian idea that NATO are warmongers just days away from invading is a complete fabrication. Cuntpunch fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Sep 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:06
|
|
|
Lucy Heartfilia posted:Is Russia a mentally handicapped child with a violent streak and kleptomania? All states are self interested. Russia is not inherently more self interested than any other government. If it benefits a state to commit atrocities, it will always do so. Asking Russia or any other government to re-examine its actions from a moral perspective is a waste of time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:10
|
|
|
The way mightypeon operates is he posts something, then a bunch of people call him out on his bullshit, then he disappears until its time to troll again. Also doesn't he live in Germany? A Russian that left Russia to live in the West while worshipping Russia and making GBS threads on NATO is some grade A irony.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:16
|
|
|
Sheng-ji Yang posted:All states are self interested. Russia is not inherently more self interested than any other government. If it benefits a state to commit atrocities, it will always do so. Asking Russia or any other government to re-examine its actions from a moral perspective is a waste of time. This is a psychopathically cynical worldview with no sense of scale or reality. Are you saying that we should be in fact cheering on Russia for it's "smart, self-interested actions?" Are you saying that it is justified in its actions and we have no right to admonish and reject it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:16
|
|
|
Finlander posted:This is a psychopathically cynical worldview with no sense of scale or reality. Are you saying that we should be in fact cheering on Russia for it's "smart, self-interested actions?" Are you saying that it is justified in its actions and we have no right to admonish and reject it? Well, all nations have their self interest as their number one priority. That's true. But some have more restraint than others. But what really angers me is that people go to defend Russia as if it's a victim or something and not an invading, warmongering, neighbor suppressing, empire rebuilding country. Sheng-ji Yang posted:All states are self interested. Russia is not inherently more self interested than any other government. If it benefits a state to commit atrocities, it will always do so. Asking Russia or any other government to re-examine its actions from a moral perspective is a waste of time. So I don't ask Russia to behave morally. That will never happen. What I ask for is to not defend Russia as if it's in a morally superior position and/or the victim with rightful grievances. Lucy Heartfilia fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Sep 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:18
|
|
|
Believing that increasing sanctions on Russia after they have made moves to de-escalate the conflict is maybe not the smartest thing to do is not equivalent to defending Russia.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
Present posted:The way mightypeon operates is he posts something, then a bunch of people call him out on his bullshit, then he disappears until its time to troll again. He's born and raised east German iirc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:29
|
|
|
Niedar posted:Believing that increasing sanctions on Russia after they have made moves to de-escalate the conflict is maybe not the smartest thing to do is not equivalent to defending Russia. No, actually this tells Putin that the West is ready to gently caress Russia up if he tries sneaky stuff again. He has shown again and again that he doesn't listen to words only actions. He has brought the sanctions over Russia because the West tried to negotiate with him again and again and every time he killed more Ukrainians.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:34
|
|
|
Finlander posted:This is a psychopathically cynical worldview with no sense of scale or reality. Are you saying that we should be in fact cheering on Russia for it's "smart, self-interested actions?" Are you saying that it is justified in its actions and we have no right to admonish and reject it? No, we should neither cheer on Russia nor is it justified in its actions. You really like building up absurd strawmen don't you? Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Sep 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
Berke Negri posted:He's born and raised east German iirc. He supped strongly from the Sandman as a child
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:42
|
|
|
Seems like some parts of Ukriane-EU association agreement may be delayed in implementation for over a year? A bit hard to figure out what this means ATM.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:44
|
|
|
OddObserver posted:Seems like some parts of Ukriane-EU association agreement may be delayed in implementation for over a year? The agreement in general is being suspended, at least according to the Ukr FM: quote:The sides agreed that it would take time to clarify these issues, that is why the implementation of the association agreement between Ukraine and the European Union after its ratification would be postponed till the end of 2015, till December 31, 2015, Ulyukayev said, adding that the sides would have 15 months to reach a compromise on that issue. In the current climate "till the end of 2015" is equivalent to "for the foreseeable future", so as far as I can see it's a total capitulation on Poroshenko's part.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 20:58
|
|
|
Finlander posted:This is a psychopathically cynical worldview with no sense of scale or reality. Are you saying that we should be in fact cheering on Russia for it's "smart, self-interested actions?" Are you saying that it is justified in its actions and we have no right to admonish and reject it? Just in general: Nothing would have stopped the west from behaving towards Russia in these 25 years as China does/did. There was such a third option, as opposed to "lets add all of eastern Europe into our own sphere of influence" (which the west did) and "lets actually ally with Russia" (which Russia wanted but the west didnt). China greatly benefited from trade with Russia, and got Russia as a quasi ally to boot. In return, they have "bidding contests" over who gets what trade deals in Mongolia and a couple of Stans (those contests are pretty good things for Mongolia and those stans), and have mutually agreed to not do regime changes. It is very instructive from a Russia pov that, in terms of relations with both neighbours and more or less distant great powers, they have the best long term relations with the powers they gave the least amounts of "concessions" to. Even Japan, which still has territorial disputes with Russia, is notably warmer towards it than Eastern Europe etc. Russia has spent much of the last 25 years looking so weak that the west simply didnt get the message that that Todays Russia has options other than "retreat" and "capitulate". Also, stating that others are "restrained" compared to Russia? About precisly which Great Powers are you talking, China or India are both more restrained than Russia, but US/France? The US blew up Iraq for the heck of it, as far as using violence as a "foreign policy tool", they are the by far least "restrained" actor that currently exists on the planet. France is deposing goverments in their West African "sphere of influence" whenever they feel like it, and has racked up a pretty appreciable death toll over the years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:04
|
|
|
Niedar posted:Believing that increasing sanctions on Russia after they have made moves to de-escalate the conflict is maybe not the smartest thing to do is not equivalent to defending Russia. "Easing off the offensive now that he's got what he wanted" is not the same as "de-escalating the conflict". The sanctions are meant to punish the current and ongoing aggression embodied by the occupation, if the West backed off for fear of provoking another offensive and occupation (one which we don't know Russia has the will to do yet, since it'll be harder going outside of the far East) it'd be complete spinelessness. Carrot and stick is a fine negotiation tactic, but you need to use stick sometimes for it to work.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:04
|
|
|
Pellisworth posted:What percentage of the ISS is/has been ethnically Russian? I think they might have a case for a self-determination or separatist movement. Zarya is in a state of foreign occupation. While funded and thus owned by the US, it was designed, built, and launched by Mother Russia. Also half of the life support system is in Zvezda, so they might seek to unilaterally restrict the flow of oxygen gas to the West.  Sheng-ji Yang posted:All states are self interested. Russia is not inherently more self interested than any other government. If it benefits a state to commit atrocities, it will always do so. Asking Russia or any other government to re-examine its actions from a moral perspective is a waste of time. Chairman Yang.txt
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:07
|
|
|
TasogareNoKagi posted:
Certainly one of the better post/username combos after our own Vladmir Putin.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:10
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:
Yes, Russia does have other options than "retreat" and "capitulate", and it chose "aggressive military expansion". I wonder why no one likes that? Or them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:13
|
|
|
quote:If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself. quote:What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:13
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:From their pov, Russia brokered a ceasefire when "their side" was winning/making considerable gains, halting "their sides" advances. This was a clear concession towards western demands. This of course is predicated on Putin believing his own bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:16
|
|
|
Lucy Heartfilia posted:No, actually this tells Putin that the West is ready to gently caress Russia up if he tries sneaky stuff again. He has shown again and again that he doesn't listen to words only actions. He has brought the sanctions over Russia because the West tried to negotiate with him again and again and every time he killed more Ukrainians. There is basically no examples of sanctions deterring a major actor from doing something that actor considers as a core interest. None, nada, zilch. There are numerous examples where sanctions lead to major power war, because the sanctioned side felt attacked anyway, and decided to respond with military force. This went horribly badly when Russia tried dissuading Japan from certain actions in 1905, and in the end well when the USA tried the same in 1940. Difference was that Russia lost her war with Japan while the USA won hers. Thankfully, current Russian leadership is considerably more stable than that of Imperial Japan, and the west cant actually sanction them enough to make WW3 look appealing (for Russian leadership) in comparison. However, once Russia feels that the west did all sanctions, (because nothing sanctionable is left) they will just say "gently caress that poo poo, if we pay the price/suffer the punishment we may as well get the benefit" and march on Kiev. Another motivation for marching on Kiev would be "well, those sanctions would never be lifted under conditions remotely palatable for us. So lets take Kiev, and then use it as a bargaining chip to get rid of the sanctions". There is ample historic precedent for both of these sanction responses. There is no precedent for Russia, or any power of Russias relative weight, crying uncle. Also, the sheer "genius" of competing with friggin Russia in an area where the ability to endure economic hardship/economic pain thresholds matters greatly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
Gaj posted:Yes, Russia does have other options than "retreat" and "capitulate", and it chose "aggressive military expansion". I wonder why no one likes that? Or them. They also had the "pretty massive economic subsidies" option as well as the "we make gas really cheap and offer favorable trade deals" option as well as the "well, your country is in dire economical straits, lets make a visa free regime so remittances can help your economy" option. The west choose the "Regime change" option, which created conditions under which the options above no longer worked as far as Russia/Russian leadership (in my eyes erraneously, Russia had other options, Putin imho panicked and fumbled badly with Crimea). As far as "Russian moral superiority" is concerned, the only "moral" difference is that the west changed the Status Quo, and that Russia is responding. The West is still at a vastly stronger position compared to the Status Quo ante Maidan.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:26
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:The west choose the "Regime change" option, Citation still needed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:30
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:They also had the "pretty massive economic subsidies" option as well as the "we make gas really cheap and offer favorable trade deals" option as well as the "well, your country is in dire economical straits, lets make a visa free regime so remittances can help your economy" option. Żou don't actually believe any of this, I think. I'm pretty convinced you just want to see people suffer horribly, especially considering how you haven't said a single thing about the current trend of Putin illegally (as in, literally against Russian law) sending in conscripts as young as 18 to Ukraine who upon their deaths are erased from the public knowledge and have their parents declared national traitors. Also, because you haven't at any point given even the slightest bit of decisive proof that "the west" was behind the popular peaceful protest movement in Ukraine that Yanukovich finally truly mobilized after he tried to slaughter them all with snipers, which you also approved of. Also, you don't think that Russia's annexation of Crimea wasn't a "regime change," when it was done with the use of Russian soldiers (as admitted by Putin himself) and behind walls closed off from journalists?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
amanasleep posted:Citation still needed. The Ukrainian people are not people with their own will and rights(!) but playthings of Russia. So Russia projects that the same must be true for the relationship between the West and Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
Mightypeon posted:They also had the "pretty massive economic subsidies" option as well as the "we make gas really cheap and offer favorable trade deals" option as well as the "well, your country is in dire economical straits, lets make a visa free regime so remittances can help your economy" option. Putin indeed did panic and I believe that's where the West (famously expressed by Merkel "from another planet") was shocked and confused by Putin's actions as it was believed any response by Russia was going to be through accepted and standard economic and policy levers. Invading and killing people probably genuinely never occurred to them as that is not how the (then thought universally agreed upon) rules of the game are. This is why despite all talk of NATO encroachment actual NATO presence in the region is fairly weak as Russia wasn't viewed as a threat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
Lucy Heartfilia posted:The Ukrainian people are not people with their own will and rights(!) but playthings of Russia. So Russia projects that the same must be true for the relationship between the West and Ukraine. Considerable parts of the Ukrainians see the policies of the post Maidan goverment as infringing on their rights, and for good reason. Concerning the "rights" of Ukraine to join Nato, they explicitly voided that right in their own state sovereignity declaration and in their declaration of independence. I fully agree that they have the right to choose their own leaders, and not have them chosen by either Putin or Victoria Nuland. How can people, after the massive western politician presence, the openly admitted "democracy foundation" support, the open western bragging, the leaked phone calls etc. see Maidan as something else but an unusually violent "color revolution"? I just dont get it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 17:28 |
|
|
Mightypeon posted:Considerable parts of the Ukrainians see the policies of the post Maidan goverment as infringing on their rights, and for good reason. Such as...?
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2014 21:42
|
|