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I'm pretty sure that involved a lot of collaborating and creaking open the game code to look at text strings and such, though.
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Sep 11, 2014 23:57
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Zereth posted:I'm pretty sure that involved a lot of collaborating and creaking open the game code to look at text strings and such, though. Pretty sure that was how the rooster trident was discoveted at least.
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Sep 12, 2014 00:07
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i'm pretty fine with weird and obtuse solutions and/or secrets in games as long as the rest of the game has a lot of that involved. it's why i'm glad that crawl has at least been going the way it has for a while now, because they've been taking out obtuse poo poo in favor of making it mostly about tactical decisions and making the most out of what you've been handed. a good chunk of the poo poo in la-mulana probably sounds bullshit in general, but the entire game pretty much consists of it so you at least know what to expect.
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Sep 12, 2014 00:24
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I've heard La-Mulana be compared to Myst. Pretty much everything is clued, but you have to take notes (and then cross-correlate the notes) because the clues are all over the place, practically never anywhere near to where they're actually used.
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Sep 12, 2014 00:32
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oh, yeah, a lot of the stuff is definitely hinted at in some form or another, even if it's vague as poo poo. i was just pointing out that i like games to be consistent with their design choices, so as long as the rest of a game is weird and obtuse in some way i'm pretty okay with hidden super endings that require you to do nonsensical poo poo.
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Sep 12, 2014 00:36
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Yeah I don't think every game should get weird and obtuse by any stretch, but stuff like the really obscure ADOM stuff and things from that general era of design really fascinates me a lot. Wizardry 4 hits me in the same place. Brutal obtuse meta-puzzles are something I really enjoy. I'm glad it's not the norm and I understand why it doesn't pay to do it very often but I love when games like that come out.
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Sep 12, 2014 04:15
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Zereth posted:I'm pretty sure that involved a lot of collaborating and creaking open the game code to look at text strings and such, though. there's an official guidebook where all the info in it was obtained through "legit" methods. You can tell because it has missing information, or mentions stuff that is still "unknown". There is also an expanded guidebook which used reverse engineering to get additional info.
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Sep 12, 2014 11:43
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I'm always worried about buying our trying to get into new yourselves because it's almost always obtuse and difficult to get started. Same with certain games. Like I'll never get into Adom and will prefer Tome over dungeon crawl. Is dungeon of the endless good for A casual like me?
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Sep 12, 2014 12:00
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I have absolutely nothing to do this coming weekend, and I figured it would be a good time to try TOME. What's the easiest class to start with that isn't a run-of-the-mill warrior? Monsters are gooey and I don't want to facehug them constantly.
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Sep 12, 2014 12:04
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Fat Samurai posted:I have absolutely nothing to do this coming weekend, and I figured it would be a good time to try TOME. What's the easiest class to start with that isn't a run-of-the-mill warrior? Monsters are gooey and I don't want to facehug them constantly. Go into the workshop or look at the.mod site all classes.are locked at the beginning. I would try time mage, those are good and fun
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Sep 12, 2014 12:06
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Fat Samurai posted:What's the easiest class to start with that isn't a run-of-the-mill warrior? By default, Tome locks the more complex classes until you've gotten some distance in the game. The idea behind this is to let you slowly learn the game - positioning is important, and learning how to deal with cooldowns rather than MP bars is a bit of a change. Each class has its own trees and skills - even the basic Barbarian will often tend to use a lot of active powers rather than just pile into everything. Just stay away from Cursed - they're fun as hell but very dependant on passives, so they're more what you're describing - or Archers - who rely almost entirely on one or two buttons.
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Sep 12, 2014 12:15
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Fat Samurai posted:I have absolutely nothing to do this coming weekend, and I figured it would be a good time to try TOME. What's the easiest class to start with that isn't a run-of-the-mill warrior? Monsters are gooey and I don't want to facehug them constantly. Alchemist is unlocked from the start, right? Those are ranged and pretty powerful.
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Sep 12, 2014 13:26
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Yeah if you aren't cheating in the unlock classes start with Alchemist, they are powerful but boring and you should be able to at least make progress once you get a handle on getting your golem to tank poo poo while you blow stuff up with gems. Your first goal should be to find an Arcane Powered artifact to give to the apprentice on the world map near the western mountains to unlock the Archmage Class, ie the Best Class, which is all about never getting touched by icky monsters.
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Sep 12, 2014 13:56
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EvilMike posted:there's an official guidebook where all the info in it was obtained through "legit" methods. You can tell because it has missing information, or mentions stuff that is still "unknown". There is also an expanded guidebook which used reverse engineering to get additional info. A bunch of the Adom community got all self righteous and pissy over the expanded guidebook too when it first came out.
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Sep 12, 2014 14:09
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Indecisive posted:Yeah if you aren't cheating in the unlock classes start with Alchemist, they are powerful but boring and you should be able to at least make progress once you get a handle on getting your golem to tank poo poo while you blow stuff up with gems. Alchemist is actually a bit more interesting now that it has the different elemental infusion trees. Still a simple class that spends most of its time on two-button nuking, but at least there's more room for customization and you have more buttons to press in different situations. Stelas posted:Just stay away from Cursed - they're fun as hell but very dependant on passives, so they're more what you're describing - or Archers - who rely almost entirely on one or two buttons. Cursed does spend a lot of time faceramming things to death, but after gaining a few levels it can get quite a bit more tactical depending on how you play it. Blindside and Reckless Charge open up some crazy positioning shenanigans, especially combined with Preternatural Senses. A lot of the straightforward Hit Mans talents are indeed kinda lackluster though, because it's a pain managing your Hate to use them to the fullest and most of the time you're better off just Rampaging at everything. I wholeheartedly agree about Archers, however. Holy hell what a boring class.
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Sep 12, 2014 14:40
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Fat Samurai posted:I have absolutely nothing to do this coming weekend, and I figured it would be a good time to try TOME. What's the easiest class to start with that isn't a run-of-the-mill warrior? Monsters are gooey and I don't want to facehug them constantly. I don't know, man, facetanking as a Bulwark is pretty drat fun. I've been bulldozing dungeons thanks to that "prefered order" list from before.
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Sep 12, 2014 16:05
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andrew smash posted:A bunch of the Adom community got all self righteous and pissy over the expanded guidebook too when it first came out. That's so bizarre - if you don't like it, don't read it. But playing adom unspoiled must be an order of magnitude worse than playing nethack unspoiled. It's even more complex and opaque. And I like both of them! (well, I don't like adom 1.2.0 much, but you get the point) I wonder if there's a worse roguelike community than the adom community.
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Sep 12, 2014 16:16
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..btt posted:That's so bizarre - if you don't like it, don't read it. But playing adom unspoiled must be an order of magnitude worse than playing nethack unspoiled. It's even more complex and opaque. And I like both of them! (well, I don't like adom 1.2.0 much, but you get the point) It's the usual "fuckin' casuals" attitude; they had to struggle to learn stuff, so everyone else should to because "that's how it's supposed to be played."
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Sep 12, 2014 16:31
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andrew smash posted:A bunch of the Adom community got all self righteous and pissy over the expanded guidebook too when it first came out. To be a little fair, at least some of that was because Biskup pretty explicitly asked people not to publish the results of reverse engineering the game. Whatever else (and tbqh it's an effort I really appreciate having been gone to), doing something that you've been outright asked not to is at least a little bit rude. It's not entirely a 'loving casuals' thing, just, you know, mostly.
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Sep 12, 2014 16:52
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Evil Mastermind posted:It's the usual "fuckin' casuals" attitude; they had to struggle to learn stuff, so everyone else should to because "that's how it's supposed to be played." I think it's more complicated than that. It's literally a genre interpretation split. Nethack and ADOM are borderline puzzle games. Rather bad ones, to be as close to objective as possible; They have a lot of the Sierra style of "Didn't know to do X? gently caress you die.". I have seen very, very little modern defense of that. Or, for that matter, defense of it at the time. But they've attached it to an RPG, which is pretty odd. An RPG where dying is dying dead. So solving the puzzles is a form of power progression, something you keep between runs. To people who are really into this concept, spoilers are basically missing the point. Someone mentioned Myst earlier; To someone really into this, it'd be like just skipping the entire game of Myst with spoilers. To a lot of roguelike players (myself included) this is doofy and not worth mentioning, because they(/we?) are seeking a tactics oriented RPG, not an RPG/puzzle game. On the record, though, I do like the concept of knowledge as progression to a degree. In the modern era of spoilers, though, it's a lot better to just have so many intermeshing systems that someone takes a while to understand them, though, rather than obscure secrets. (Also, this fundamental genre split between what are classically viewed as Roguelikes-that there's basically two subgenres within the subgenre, games that focus on the puzzle elements and games that don't-is why I think Roguelike definitions are silly. Among reasons.)
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Sep 12, 2014 17:34
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Cuntpunch posted:That sums up about how far I've gotten, there's a lot of randomness to the game that adds up floor-after-floor and can take a while to get critical. Those are all good tips and things I have kinda been teaching myself since I've put in a few hours in the last couple days. What do you mean by "light up" a dark room? Will enemies not spawn in rooms that you have dudes in? I'm having the same thoughts on team comp. I really like having 2 operators, 1 dedicated dps fighter/tank, and 1 fast "scout" fighter. I have only actually seen one or two scout type characters so far and they do seem to die quickly, but they can haul serious rear end if a choke point is in danger or you need to move the crystal without much dust to power rooms. Have you figured out the deal with the "danger" spawn points? I've seen them in later levels. Seems like those enemies never leave their spawn room and that they're supposed to be little minibosses but they are not very tough at all. I'm on a run right now where I'm halfway through floor 10 and things are looking good. 3 of my dudes are lvl 15 and the last is 14. Turns out 15 is the level cap.
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Sep 12, 2014 18:51
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Angry Diplomat posted:I wholeheartedly agree about Archers, however. Holy hell what a boring class. If you like the idea of Archers but actually want to have fun, use a cheat to unlock Skirmishers. They're a sling/shield class with a lot of movement based abilities.
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Sep 13, 2014 03:44
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SageAcrin posted:I think it's more complicated than that. It's literally a genre interpretation split. I see what you're getting at, but for me a big part of why I always find myself going back to ADOM over Tome or Dungeon Crawl or any commercial Rogue-like is the "puzzle" aspect of it. I'm not an amazing gamer, I've beaten Adom once, but I enjoy the metaknowledge and always planning where to go next. There's a difference between Myst and an RPG. In Myst you move between screens and click on buttons, in Adom there's still having to play strategically, and the puzzles are on a bigger scale. Really, a reason I find games like Dredmore so shallow and uninteresting is that once you've completed the first dungeon floor you know exactly what to expect. There are no gimmicks, no changes, no special floors. Just grinding with no real tactics to speak of. Like, I get the complaints about using spoilers or having spoilers be required for a more casual playthrough, but I honestly find it fun. I like to look over maps or understand what certain messages mean. I don't know, it feels like I've got a decoder ring or something, and unlike using a gamefaq, while some levels are static most are not, and even having the maps available for static levels, they're still interesting or challenging.
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Sep 13, 2014 04:10
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SageAcrin posted:I think it's more complicated than that. It's literally a genre interpretation split. In Nethack, at least, the historical justification is explore mode. You're expected to play on explore mode at first, where death is not permanent; once you think you have a good handle on the game -- i.e. once you are confident you can "solve the puzzle" without making any fatal mistakes -- you turn off explore mode and try to get on the high score list. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Sep 13, 2014 |
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Sep 13, 2014 04:25
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Space Bat posted:I see what you're getting at, but for me a big part of why I always find myself going back to ADOM over Tome or Dungeon Crawl or any commercial Rogue-like is the "puzzle" aspect of it. I'm not an amazing gamer, I've beaten Adom once, but I enjoy the metaknowledge and always planning where to go next. There's a difference between Myst and an RPG. In Myst you move between screens and click on buttons, in Adom there's still having to play strategically, and the puzzles are on a bigger scale. Really, a reason I find games like Dredmore so shallow and uninteresting is that once you've completed the first dungeon floor you know exactly what to expect. There are no gimmicks, no changes, no special floors. Just grinding with no real tactics to speak of. To the extent that all games are genre mashups, ADoM is a puzzle/tactics combat mashup. Myst is far more puzzle-oriented(it's puzzle/exploration, I guess); the point is that once you've solved the puzzles they don't really change, though of course due to the combat element in ADoM there's going to be variations from one game to the next. Really, most roguelikes have a "phase 1" of figuring out a strategy to beat the game (which includes solving all or at least most of the built-in puzzles), and then a phase 2 of iterating that strategy. Once you've beaten the game a few times, basically all of your gameplay is spent in phase 2. A short phase 1 speaks to simple underlying mechanics, which isn't necessarily a bad thing; Hoplite is very easy to learn but that doesn't make it easy to play, for example. But when phase 1 comprises a significant chunk of time, there are always going to be people complaining about other people short-circuiting it, for whatever reason.
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Sep 13, 2014 05:28
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ToxicFrog posted:In Nethack, at least, the historical justification is explore mode. You're expected to play on explore mode at first, where death is not permanent; once you think you have a good handle on the game -- i.e. once you are confident you can "solve the puzzle" without making any fatal mistakes -- you turn off explore mode and try to get on the high score list. Not really, I don't think. To the extent that Nethack was designed at all you're definitely supposed to figure it out yourself. Nethack isn't really a puzzle game, it's an adventure game with a ridiculously, almost unplayably difficult RPG bolted onto it. It's a very interesting concept that could probably work in the hands of someone competent enough but Nethack was designed by committee by programmers over like a decade, sooooo....
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Sep 13, 2014 05:32
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ADOM's not really a difficult game, it took me about a week or two of serious playing before I could reliably reach the animation forest by which point the difficult part is behind you. The only reason I haven't won yet is because I haven't put in the hours to learn the minor gotchas that exist past that point. That and I'm waiting for the Deluxe edition because all the prereleases seem to have some semi-serious bug pop up 3-4 days later. In the current pre-release it's not being able to use the casino because the levers are bugged.
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Sep 13, 2014 07:43
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I always considered beating the ToEF to be the dividing line between early and late game in ADOM. I really like the ToEF, it's like a mid-game endgame with its own ascenscion kit (that is not too hard to build once you know what awaits you).
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Sep 13, 2014 08:36
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Morholt posted:I always considered beating the ToEF to be the dividing line between early and late game in ADOM. I really like the ToEF, it's like a mid-game endgame with its own ascenscion kit (that is not too hard to build once you know what awaits you). Yep, ToEF was the middle mark for ADOM traditionally - if your character could handle it you were probably set to cruise mode until at least the Temples unless you were really aching for an Ultra ending. The biggest problem I have with ADOM, in retrospect, is probably how many silly bottlenecks exist to choke the RNG. AoLS is only really important if you want an Ultra ending, sure. But Seven League Boots are pretty much standard "I need this I want this I must have this at all costs" equipment. Partly due to how fast they make you and how important speed can be, partly because it means less time spent in the overworld getting corrupted to hell and back. Hell, the corruption mechanic in general and how *hidden* it is strikes me as particularly malicious.
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Sep 13, 2014 09:33
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Doesn't the overworld not corrupt you until time gets really far in? It still advances the clock quite a bit without seven league boots so when you do go somewhere corruptive it hits you harder, of course.
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Sep 13, 2014 09:39
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The overworld never corrupts I think, because the 90 day limit just multiplies all the background corruption by two and the wilderness just straight up has zero corruption to multiply. Although I don't know if anyone has done much testing with the new version where every 90 days the background corruption increases again, because who takes 180 days to win or die.
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Sep 13, 2014 12:39
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If you're a funhaver and drink from every pool you'll get a wish eventually and then you can just wish for SLB.
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Sep 13, 2014 12:50
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The Corruption mechanic has been tempered quite a bit by Appearance now becoming a stat that matters to resist it in all forms, plus freaky stuff like the Chaos Knight Class. I really do think ADOM is "getting there"---a whole heap of accessibility and whatnot should be well situated by the time they land on Steam and so long as the team follows through on that and the remaining new quests and whatnot. The dev gap of several years really did some stagnation damage, but drat it all if the lot of them haven't managed to make great strides in all aspects since the crowdfunding gambit actually worked out.
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Sep 13, 2014 14:52
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ExiledTinkerer posted:The Corruption mechanic has been tempered quite a bit by Appearance now becoming a stat that matters to resist it in all forms, plus freaky stuff like the Chaos Knight Class. I need auto explore or I just can't play :C
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Sep 13, 2014 16:12
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:The overworld never corrupts I think, because the 90 day limit just multiplies all the background corruption by two and the wilderness just straight up has zero corruption to multiply. Although I don't know if anyone has done much testing with the new version where every 90 days the background corruption increases again, because who takes 180 days to win or die. Me! quote:Micah, the drakish paladin, saved the world with his brave efforts and became a great ruler while saving himself 13 times. He scored 9960956 points and advanced to level 42. He survived for 0 years, 253 days, 21 hours, 6 minutes and 27 seconds (178797 turns).
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Sep 13, 2014 16:44
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Pladdicus posted:I need auto explore or I just can't play :C Auto-explore really isn't much use unless you have sprawling, cavernous, relatively empty maps like crawl. Besides, without many interconnected paths through levels auto-explore is far more likely to put you in a position you cannot escape from. That said, if that feature is a deal breaker to you, you probably won't like adom much anyway. It's very much an older generation of roguelike, and its design philosophy is quite opposed to crawl's. The 1.2.0 changes haven't done anything to affect that.
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Sep 13, 2014 17:23
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So Claustrophobia the downward struggle is straight up Dredmor without the skill selection at the start. Ehhhh I'm not sure how much time I'll put into this.
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Sep 13, 2014 19:00
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Pladdicus posted:I need auto explore or I just can't play :C It's got auto explore, I think. The newer versions anyway.
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Sep 13, 2014 19:02
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So any good "modern setting" roguelikes with guns besides LCS/Catacylsm? (besides DoomRL)
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Sep 13, 2014 19:10
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AceRimmer posted:So any good "modern setting" roguelikes with guns besides LCS/Catacylsm? (besides DoomRL) AliensRL or X@COM come to mind, though I'm sure there are better examples. Also SotS: The Pit. e: durr those are more scifi than modern. I need a nap. spider wisdom fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Sep 13, 2014 |
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Sep 13, 2014 19:27
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