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ubergnu posted:I think the worst thing about this mess is being overlooked. I now have to memorise a new name for our prime minister. It took me years to remember Reinfeldt, I don't even know how to correctly pronounce Löfven! Loeven. Anyway:  Anders Borg leaves party politics http://www.dn.se/valet-2014/live-dagen-efter-valet/ He will NOT succeed Reinfeldt. M literally lost their two trump cards personalitywise in 24 hours. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 14:10
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evilmiera posted:Had a casual walk through the park with one of our elderly patients, a very nice old lady, a moment ago. We chatted about various things, and I mentioned I'd spent the day before doing volunteer work for my party when asked. We tend not to discuss politics as a policy at the workplace, so I simply said "Well, it was for one of the smaller parties, but I suppose I could tell you I wasn't working for SD, at least" SD promised the pensioners that they would get everything they want because we would save hundreds of billions of SEK if we stop the immigration, and the pensioners (like every group) would get a major share of those imaginary billions. Old people are one of SDs main target group. Reinfeldt and Borg are gone, so now I expect Bildt so say "gently caress this poo poo" within 24 hours. I can't imagine him having any interest in a position within Swedish politics except for Foreign Minister. Especially when the only persons he could remotely associate with are officially gone now.
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Sep 15, 2014 14:24
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lilljonas posted:SD promised the pensioners that they would get everything they want because we would save hundreds of billions of SEK if we stop the immigration, and the pensioners (like every group) would get a major share of those imaginary billions. Old people are one of SDs main target group. Even though I never liked the guy's political positions for the most part, I could appreciate his persona. He was and still is something else, though what that something is varies from person to person. Also, the patient's exact words were "Yeah, I voted for them because we've taken in too many immigrants." So I guess they're being very open with their target demographic.
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Sep 15, 2014 14:33
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lilljonas posted:I expect Bildt so say "gently caress this poo poo" within 24 hours. I can't imagine him having any interest in a position within Swedish politics except for Foreign Minister. Especially when the only persons he could remotely associate with are officially gone now. My neighbour works at the department of immigration and she votes V but like him very much. He is sincere about foreign policy even if he sometimes act needlessly confrontational.
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Sep 15, 2014 14:37
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evilmiera posted:Had a casual walk through the park with one of our elderly patients, a very nice old lady, a moment ago. We chatted about various things, and I mentioned I'd spent the day before doing volunteer work for my party when asked. We tend not to discuss politics as a policy at the workplace, so I simply said "Well, it was for one of the smaller parties, but I suppose I could tell you I wasn't working for SD, at least" I made that mistake at a graduation party last spring. What I got was a 45 minute long rant that steadily got more and more racist as it went on. All I could do was basically nod once in a while and wish for it to be over. The guy was driving so he hadn't even been drinking and yet it kept piling on. 
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Sep 15, 2014 15:02
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Cardiac posted:Anyone still thinks that 13% of the Swedish population are racists Significantly more than 13% of any given population are probably racists, so, yes?
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Sep 15, 2014 15:31
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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In California (which is about the same geographical size as Sweden, but with about four times the population), 27% of the population is foreign-born (Sweden, 2013: ~16%). During the 90's there was a net foreign immigration of about 250-300k people per year while the state had a population of about 30 million. Yes, please keep telling us that accepting a few thousand Syrians and Somalians in a year is completely impossible and will end us as a nation. I mean, it's obvious that with the current way we treat these people there's no wonder we have social issues involving them, but hurfing a durf about "nomadic herdsmen" (lol as if they could afford to get themselves here) and "eastern europeans with mischief in mind" (do you propose extrajudicial screening in order to establish that they do, in fact, have mischief in mind?) ruining our society just makes you seem loving retarded. Stop making GBS threads up the thread with myths and absurd arguments in the vein of the old Hassan classic "tio tusen tyska bögar" (it would be funny, except you're not ironic). Ligur posted:I am under the impression Swedish democracy is so highly developed and tolerant, that admitting SD sympathies or membership might make you lose a job opportunity, or get you fired, or block you from working state positions so people tend to keep a lid on it. But I might be wrong. Of course you are, since all of those cases are obviously illegal discrimination. Please stop spreading retarded reverse racism myths. Certain worker's unions block SD members from holding elected positions though, but that's an entirely different case. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 16:09
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No, but you see, our rac-*cough*-sorry, cultures, are simply not compatible. 
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Sep 15, 2014 16:13
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Så Hägglund (KD) has said he might play ball with S in some cases, but won't commit to any organised cooperation.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:14
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TheFluff posted:In California (which is about the same geographical size as Sweden, but with about four times the population), 27% of the population is foreign-born (Sweden, 2013: ~16%). During the 90's there was a net foreign immigration of about 250-300k people per year while the state had a population of about 30 million. Yes, please keep telling us that accepting a few thousand Syrians and Somalians in a year is completely impossible and will end us as a nation. Europeans, and in many cases Scandinavians in particular, are just really, really bad at integration. In Norway we seem to think that sticking people who just came from a poverty-stricken war-zone in semi-closed instiutions (often privately run) without true contact with the real world is the path to integration and gainful employment.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:18
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Quantum Mechanic posted:Significantly more than 13% of any given population are probably racists, so, yes? "A recent survey reveals that 30 percent of
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Sep 15, 2014 16:29
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Randarkman posted:Europeans, and in many cases Scandinavians in particular, are just really, really bad at integration. In Norway we seem to think that sticking people who just came from a poverty-stricken war-zone in semi-closed instiutions (often privately run) without true contact with the real world is the path to integration and gainful employment. That's horrifying. The town in the US I grew up in gets a lot of refugees (Bosnians and Afghanis when I was there, I think Sudanese in the past few years) and they were treated more or less normally. Not that there weren't issues, but they went to the same schools, lived in the same areas, etc as people who grew up in the area.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:31
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Yup we suck at integration. Seems like you just can`t combine social welfare with etnic plurarlity. Well there is no going back to how things used to be in Scandinavia even if we wanted to. So i supposed the only forward is to reform into hyper-randian societies. This will suck rear end but at least we can make multiculturalism work this way. I used to be all doom and gloom about immigration but now i am more relaxed. It will work out in the end, but we have to accept that everything about our culture and the we do things have to change. We have to embrace this change.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:34
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holy poo poo im so disappointed in my countrymen today unbelievable
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Sep 15, 2014 16:35
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Baudolino posted:It will work out in the end, but we have to accept that everything about our culture and the we do things have to change. On a personal/household level, I don't think that's true. I really dislike the nationalist ideal that says that everyone who lives in a certain place has to absorb certain cultural values and have a certain mindset in order to fit in. Why can't we just not be assholes and let everyone follow their own traditions? A true multicultural society certainly needs to do so to work.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:43
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TheFluff posted:On a personal/household level, I don't think that's true. I really dislike the nationalist ideal that says that everyone who lives in a certain place has to absorb certain cultural values and have a certain mindset in order to fit in. Why can't we just not be assholes and let everyone follow their own traditions? A true multicultural society certainly needs to do so to work. Scandinavian cultures, especially Norway and Sweden do (traditionally/stereotypically) place a great amount of importance on the concept of "fitting in" and not drawing "needless" attention to yourself at the expense of the community. Whether you recognize that you adhere to this or not, and even though it is a stereotype, I believe we are expected to conform and we expect others to do the same for better or worse.
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Sep 15, 2014 16:51
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TheFluff posted:In California... Ahahahahaha. Someone in 2014 compares a state in USA to an European country, let alone Sweden of all places. There is no way you can start making that analogy seriously. It's not even apples and oranges, it's apples and red phosphorus hand grenades. quote:accepting a few thousand.... a year Huhuhu. Huhuhuhuhu. Your immigration services just told us you'll probably be accepting 100 000. Asylum seekers. In 2014. Alone. Not counting all the other immigrants AFAIK. It doesn't even matter where they come from, as long as you have to place them in hastily set up centers to deal with the volume and will probably have nothing reasonable for them to do in who knows how many years: ur doing it wrong. But, I'm not saying the things you apparently think I am. Not quite. If the premise was that asylum seekers were taken in as refugees in the first safe country they can reach, and that they are escaping some immediately personal threat like a shooting squad or torture, because of their personal convictions or ethnicity or such, by an oppressive regime, then, yeah. Take in 200 000 asylum seekers year, take 1 000 000, place them in hastily erected centers, have nothing for them to do since they will probably be glad at that, what with escaping immediate personal threat and having survived with their life and not being tortured, and wait for things to cool off so they can return back home. But what is going on in Sweden isn't anything remotely like that. That a country was in a state of war wasn't originally even intended as cause for admittance. Hell, the systems we have in place as outlined by UN in 1951 originated to help out cold-war defectors. But my point was more, kinda, like I don't know what ya Swedes think you yourself are doing?! It's not solving problems anywhere else, it's just giving few selected and probably more resourceful or wealthy than average individuals a (very expensive for you guys) possibility to live in folkhemmet. It's not solving any demographic scares either, a dwindling population is actually a good thing, and once the last larger generations die the demographics even out: you don't need immigrants to solve problems related to that. And if you try to fix it with immigration, well, they grow old too, so you'll need more immigrants to fix that, who will grow old, and you will need more, and so on... It isn't solving anything like a depleted workforce either: there already are not enough jobs that match the skillset and available jobs to go around for the people already in Sweden. You can't except the old industries and factories to return in 10 or 20 years, so that you really need to "storage" immigrants for that eventuality. Back 10 or 15 years again the argument was that immigrants can't be an economic burden, so that's not a reason not to take them but does anyone honestly think superhigh unemployment suburbs with mostly an immigrant population costs nothing? In a Nordic wellfare state? If immigrants are only an economic boost, why are municipalities struggling to handle the load? Why is the immigrant population of Helsinki about 10% but they use 25% of the available KELA and social services money? If someone comes out and says, hey, it's my ideology. Taking in immigrants, asylum seekers, workers, spouses, space aliens, all the immigrants is my core belief, no matter what, that's cool. But there has been a lot of waffling about in the Nordics, trying to "sell" immigration to people with everything between "multicultural enrichment" to "diversifying genetic base" to "aging demographics" to "shortage of manpower" to it being "an economic boon" and everything in between, none of them really true. I think it's pretty cool there are people in this thread who flat out said they don't loving care, they just think it's Sweden's responsibility to help people because there are bad corners here in the world. If by placing them in some suburb hidden from the middle and political classes, go ahead. That's at least still honest. (If not particularly intelligent.) Randarkman posted:Europeans, and in many cases Scandinavians in particular, are just really, really bad at integration. In Norway we seem to think that sticking people who just came from a poverty-stricken war-zone in semi-closed instiutions (often privately run) without true contact with the real world is the path to integration and gainful employment. Agreed. But the whole premise of the current system is faulty. How Immigration Works was built on the premise people come here because they have a job, or have married some Nordic chick or guy, or in the case of Finland want to study here. They don't need to be "integrated" much more than that. The whole asylum seeking system where thousands (or in Sweden's case, tens of thousands) of families just appear over the border every year, often having destroyed their travel documents so they don't even have an identity you confirm, don't speak any local language, come from cultures which are often the opposites of the Nordic "liberal views, religion not important, trust officials and police, ethnicity not important, 1-2 kid family" -one, and might not have much of a social network etc. etc has slowly grown from nothing, without anyone having time to plan or think it through, and is now an enormous industry which trundles on, even here in Finland, the land of few asylum seekers, there is still a large bureaucracy built around that only. Of course this spells various disasters and problems with "integration". Nobody knows what the gently caress is even going on. Ligur fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 16:58
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So Vänster won't be in a government with S? (working on my seriously underused school svenska here) http://www.svt.se/nyheter/val2014/vansterpartiet-om-regeringssamarbete Must be one hell of a cabinet talks to pull off for Löfven.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:17
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Ligur posted:Huhuhu. Huhuhuhuhu. Your immigration services just told us you'll probably be accepting 100 000. Asylum seekers. In 2014. Alone. Not counting all the other immigrants AFAIK. It doesn't even matter where they come from, as long as you have to place them in hastily set up centers to deal with the volume and will probably have nothing reasonable for them to do in who knows how many years: ur doing it wrong. I don't think you understand what the terms "asylum seeker" and "net immigration" mean. There might be 100k applications for asylum in 2014, that is true. It's an estimate based on the numbers so far. Out of those, ~15% are going to result in the applicant being sent to another EU country because that's where they arrived first, 15-20% are going to be rejected and sent back to where they came from, and 8-10% retract their application or otherwise aren't approved. The remaining ~50-60% can stay temporarily. But yes, keep throwing around BIG SCARY NUMBERS. As for why we should let them stay: it's our loving moral responsibility as human beings to help our neighbors, you shitheel. We obviously can't help everyone, but neither is it right to help a token few and stare at the ceiling claiming it's Somebody Else's Problem and certainly these brown people are better suited to help several million other brown people because being brown makes it so much easier or something. It doesn't even cost us that much as a society, and if we actually implemented sane integration policies it would cost us a lot less than it does today. I'd be okay with granting fewer people asylum for a limited time while we sort that poo poo out. You can keep bringing up unsourced myths about destroyed documentation and nomadic shepherds and "opposite cultures" all you want in your efforts to prove that immigrants are Bad People that are Bad For Society, but that doesn't make it true. I really don't see what the problem with people moving to a place as sparsely populated as Sweden is.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:24
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TheFluff posted:On a personal/household level, I don't think that's true. I really dislike the nationalist ideal that says that everyone who lives in a certain place has to absorb certain cultural values and have a certain mindset in order to fit in. Why can't we just not be assholes and let everyone follow their own traditions? A true multicultural society certainly needs to do so to work. Some traditions are terrible.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:24
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Ligur posted:Agreed. But the whole premise of the current system is faulty. How Immigration Works was built on the premise people come here because they have a job, or have married some Nordic chick or guy, or in the case of Finland want to study here. They don't need to be "integrated" much more than that. Ofcourse, the first immigrants to come were largely guest workers who ended up staying (in Norway, Pakistanis and Turks in the '60s and '70s, and nowadays we have Poles, Lithuanians, Swedes and Romanians in the same role), these mostly did well enough but they tended to be very segregated from mainstream society which has left the second generation of these people in kind of a weird situation as they grow up in segregated neighborhoods and attend the worst schools and aren't employed on a large scale because they lack the skills and cheap labor costs of their parents (or something like that). The whole refugee and asylym system is pretty much just a disaster separate from other kinds of immigration,. I think part of the problem is that we expected that we could fully accomdodate and integrate these communities by means of extensive bureacracies and instituitons to manage, house and educate them. In my opinion this has only further exacerbated the problem, as rather than being "forced" to participate in society by working and such they are pretty much sheltered from the rest of society, alienating them even further. They can't get work because they are pretty much unemployable, they don't know proper Norwegian because they only really associate with the other asylum seekers and their own family, and many develop a lingering resentment for the host society that shelters them. In my home municipality the local asylum institution has been the target of arson from "inmates" (don't know the proper word to use) something like 2 or 3 times in the last 5 years. I believe that "proper integration" (or assimilation) is not something that can be managed by a bureaucracy and institutions. It can only really come about if new arrivals participate in society at large by working and living in it, rather than being sheltered in institutions or living in segregated communities because their parents weren't really expected to stay in the country. But that's just my opinion.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:33
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Lunsku posted:So Vänster won't be in a government with S? (working on my seriously underused school svenska here) Someone's gonna have to swallow their pride and step up, if everyone is serious about freezing out SD. Right now, if you assume that the Greens will line up with S, you've got 137 seats. V and C have already said they're not gonna side with Löfven, and if you assume that there's not gonna be some sort of grand coalition with the Moderates, all you have left is SD, KD, and FP. KD and FP, even if they were willing to line up, still don't get Löfven to 175 seats, and a majority. They do get him to 173 though, and if it came to that, someone would probably step up and support Löfven, at least initially, to avoid SD becoming the kingmakers. It does make for interesting times, though.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:39
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TheFluff posted:On a personal/household level, I don't think that's true. I really dislike the nationalist ideal that says that everyone who lives in a certain place has to absorb certain cultural values and have a certain mindset in order to fit in. Why can't we just not be assholes and let everyone follow their own traditions? A true multicultural society certainly needs to do so to work. Because if you took that mindset to its logical conclusion you wouldn't have a society at all and just a collection of disparate groups of people living in the same general geographic area, with no lasting basis for solidarity, economic or otherwise. You cannot eliminate the basic human mechanisms of social capital and the effects of culture through wishful thinking, and that's one of the main reasons people have increasingly turned away from the left and towards the far right in the face of neoliberalism and globalization. It's one of the things I find interesting about parties like the Feminist Initiative; they are strongly feminist while simultaneously promoting open borders and (presumably) 'multiculturalism'. The obvious problem with this is that their conception of feminism is ideologically rooted in Western culture and Western philosophy in the way it has developed over the past centuries. The way that even non-feminist Westerners view the role of women in society is very specifically tied to our culture. There is a fundamental contradiction between wanting to impose this view on society, which is ostensibly what FI wants to do, and declaring that everyone should be allowed to maintain their traditions as they see fit. Simply by legislating and applying the law without distinction, European governments are already imposing a fairly strict framework, and there is nothing wrong with that.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:49
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Kwik posted:Someone's gonna have to swallow their pride and step up, if everyone is serious about freezing out SD. Right now, if you assume that the Greens will line up with S, you've got 137 seats. V and C have already said they're not gonna side with Löfven, and if you assume that there's not gonna be some sort of grand coalition with the Moderates, all you have left is SD, KD, and FP. KD and FP, even if they were willing to line up, still don't get Löfven to 175 seats, and a majority. They do get him to 173 though, and if it came to that, someone would probably step up and support Löfven, at least initially, to avoid SD becoming the kingmakers. It does make for interesting times, though. S + MP + C + FP looks like the natural solution, but good luck getting Lööf and Björklund to act sensible ever.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:49
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Phlegmish posted:Because if you took that mindset to its logical conclusion you wouldn't have a society at all and just a collection of disparate groups of people living in the same general geographic area, with no lasting basis for solidarity, economic or otherwise. You cannot eliminate the basic human mechanisms of social capital and the effects of culture through wishful thinking, and that's one of the main reasons people have increasingly turned away from the left and towards the far right in the face of neoliberalism and globalization. Welcome to the post-modern world, aka the year 2014! You can check in your 60's mono-cultural folkhem by the door.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:14
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Benito Hitlerstalin posted:S + MP + C + FP looks like the natural solution, but good luck getting Lööf and Björklund to act sensible ever. Yes, I wonder if there are enough power hungry second-line politicians in FP and C that they can make an agreement to push out the leaders in favour of sitting in government. I don't see FP sitting in with S and MP as long as Björklund is left. Annie is crazy enough that I can't say what she's thinking.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:15
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TheFluff posted:On a personal/household level, I don't think that's true. I really dislike the nationalist ideal that says that everyone who lives in a certain place has to absorb certain cultural values and have a certain mindset in order to fit in. Why can't we just not be assholes and let everyone follow their own traditions? A true multicultural society certainly needs to do so to work. There needs to be some common ground. Vauge notions of being nice will not suffice. Immigrants have to surrender a part of their identity and we have to surrender a part of ours. A combination of going for a "lean state" combined with propogating patriarchical norms should brigde the cultural gap nicely. In short mr Åkesson should have founded a swedish liberitarian party rather than a pale eunuch copy of NSDAP.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:20
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TheFluff posted:On a personal/household level, I don't think that's true. I really dislike the nationalist ideal that says that everyone who lives in a certain place has to absorb certain cultural values and have a certain mindset in order to fit in. Why can't we just not be assholes and let everyone follow their own traditions? A true multicultural society certainly needs to do so to work. Because a multicultural society has never been about keeping cultures separate and pure despite what some deluded scholars would argue. In practicality it's about members of different cultures meeting and the better parts of each respective culture joining together while the bad parts slowly fade away as new generations pick up the torch. Culture thrives when it's being challenged.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:29
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Kwik posted:Someone's gonna have to swallow their pride and step up, if everyone is serious about freezing out SD. Right now, if you assume that the Greens will line up with S, you've got 137 seats. V and C have already said they're not gonna side with Löfven, and if you assume that there's not gonna be some sort of grand coalition with the Moderates, all you have left is SD, KD, and FP. KD and FP, even if they were willing to line up, still don't get Löfven to 175 seats, and a majority. They do get him to 173 though, and if it came to that, someone would probably step up and support Löfven, at least initially, to avoid SD becoming the kingmakers. It does make for interesting times, though. He does not need 175 seats in government to get a majority on a vote. What he does need is for Sjöstedt to suck it up and go back to ping ponging budgets like they did under Göran Persson so he can still be flexible enough with his cabinet to make deals with M or FP/C. Just because they won't be in government does not mean they will be without influence and incapable of making deals. Edit: That said, had V/MP/S had a majority either through F! passive support or on their own Sjöstedt would be in the cabinet no questions asked. The real problem is SD and their constant vote sniping. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 18:34
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Baudolino posted:Immigrants have to surrender a part of their identity and we have to surrender a part of ours. No, I don't think this is necessary true at all. Or, if you think about it in practice, I'm not sure this is possible.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:41
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Konec Hry posted:No, I don't think this is necessary true at all. Or, if you think about it in practice, I'm not sure this is possible. I can think of plenty of times when it's possible and has happened,even in Europe.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:43
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computer parts posted:I can think of plenty of times when it's possible and has happened,even in Europe. But I mean, why do we have to? What part of "our" cultural identity is lost? It's not like things are going to disappear. We will still enjoy snaps, stekt fläsk or whatever, we will still celebrate Midsommar. Some other people won't and will eat and celebrate other things. What, exactly, has been lost or given up here?
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Sep 15, 2014 18:47
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Phlegmish posted:It's one of the things I find interesting about parties like the Feminist Initiative; they are strongly feminist while simultaneously promoting open borders and (presumably) 'multiculturalism'. The obvious problem with this is that their conception of feminism is ideologically rooted in Western culture and Western philosophy in the way it has developed over the past centuries. The way that even non-feminist Westerners view the role of women in society is very specifically tied to our culture. There is a fundamental contradiction between wanting to impose this view on society, which is ostensibly what FI wants to do, and declaring that everyone should be allowed to maintain their traditions as they see fit. Simply by legislating and applying the law without distinction, European governments are already imposing a fairly strict framework, and there is nothing wrong with that. Well, yes, this is the fundamental issue in any democracy: how much should society decide and how much is up to the individual? Individualistic vs totalitarian, basically. FI is very authoritative in some issues but very individualistic in others. If you want a party that is entirely contradiction-free in this regard you're basically left with libertarians (society decides nothing) and North Korean-style communism (society decides everything). Everyone else is going to be somewhere in the middle. Also, I'm well aware of the human tendency to always group people into "us and them". I really don't see the national state "us" being beneficial, though. If there's anything we can learn from the 20th century, it's that there are few things more dangerous than the nationalistic ideals taken to their extremes.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:52
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Pretty sure culture isn't a fixed thing (even in a monoculture) and once people start rubbing up against each other it develops quite naturally from there, even if they are similar. The more and bigger the cultures are in this "mix", the faster and larger the developments are. So, take your bleak rear end Falukorv, sweet strawberries and grind it all up together with your favorite (totally swedish) meatballs. Now add some chili, tabasco and mango for flavour. Finally, add a big heaping of chocolate sauce. Now let it sit and stew for 40-80 years time, once fully cooked you will have the sweetest piece of delicious Jazz to... eat? 
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Sep 15, 2014 19:02
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Cardiac posted:Anyone still thinks that 13% of the Swedish population are racists or is there a simpler explanation? (Note: Trick question) 13% of Sweden voted for a racist party full of racists politicians who promote racist policies. I don not personally know 13% of Sweden. I have given plenty of examples previously in the thread of people within SD who express racist attitudes and how SD has neo nazi beginnings. I can probably find even more SD sympathizers who have racist belief, but most supporters tend to look a lot like the party they follow if you know what i mean  I don't really think that 13% of Sweden is racists. They probably actually believe SD's agenda, that stopping immigrants will somehow fix their problems, be it unemployment or the bad economy. Racism plays a big part of that off course and shouldn't be dismissed. To say "13 % of Sweden isn't racists" is not the same as "SD is not a racists party" or "the majority of SD supporters do not support xenophobic beliefs". But you know what, fine, let's stop going back and forth with the "Racist/Not Racists" arguments and talk about their politics of this. "Take the debate" and all that. Let's pretend for a moment that SD gets any kind of political power in this new government. Hell, let's pretend that they get to pull through quite a bit of their policies through a kingmaker role or something similar. How much money will stopping the flow of refugees really save? Do you have any reliable numbers not dreamt up by avpixlat? Is it an significant amount that will help to prop up the budget? How does this money compare to, say, cutting the JobbSkatteAvdrag, which at the current is up at 70 000 millions sek? If SD thinks integration is important, how is the integration of current residents to be accomplished? Usually integration is a costly business, are we talking job programs or low income apartments in the cities to prevent physical segregation in ghettos? Or is the plan just to cut the current flow of immigrants, thus "fixing" integration by not having refugees and ignoring current segregation? How will any of SD's politics end the real challenges faced by Sweden today? Such as: Increased youth unemployment, lack of affordable apartments, faltering school results, etc?
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Sep 15, 2014 19:03
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I think comedian Soran Ismail put it best. It's mostly people looking for simple answers to complex questions that are voting for SD.
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Sep 15, 2014 19:40
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TheFluff posted:We live in the country where a cabinet member* once declared that "politics, that is to want something". In today's public debate, however, politics seems to be about calculating (in great detail, but with different methods) that we cannot actually afford to want something. That needs to stop. Politics is about changing society for the better, not whining about how we can't change anything because of <reasons>. The debate should be about what we want to change and why, not bickering about by how many crowns we cannot afford this or that change. If you formulate every problem in terms of what its solution would cost, you'll soon end up in absurdities like how we can't afford sick people and such things. quoting for truth It still baffles me how so many people can reiterate inherently pessimistic talking points without getting sick of them. It feels like kids naive to politics playing at doomsday prophets. In my eyes Sweden is one of the only countries on earth making true of the moral values that built the social welfare system in the transition into a global society, and maintaining them even when the poo poo hits the fan. I'm all for sticking to the basic ideals: I believe life should be played on fair terms, whoever you are and wherever you live. I'm incredibly lucky to have been born here instead of, well, almost anywhere else on the planet, and I think the long-term goal of civilization is to make sure that as many other people possible get the same chance I did. That is my vision of society; not economic growth or personal freedom or whatever dumb poo poo people think they need. There is a lot of terrible stuff going on in the world right now and Sweden is taking responsibility, carrying what part it can. The principle here is everything: that we as humans stick up for each other and help out. That's what the country is built on: that the strong help the weak, and that nobody is too strong not to be helped, and that nobody is too weak to not help. We're rich as poo poo, all things said. Our standard of living is incredible. We can help, we have every possibility. So we should help. Calming down after yesterday and taking a step back, I'm incredibly glad that our mainstay political parties seem dead-set on not letting SD gain influence despite how riksdagen is shaping out to be and that even our right-wing parties are keeping our borders open; a huge difference in comparison to twenty years ago with Balkan! Also loving the Danish and Norwegian SD-counterpart indignation and clamors of "undemocratic" conduct in keeping SD out of power. Still nervous as hell about stability: if Rödgrön don't get their own budget through then it's gonna be a rough year, reform-wise. Status quo will more likely than not maintain or increase economic class disparity. Which, you know, is pretty non-Swedish.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:04
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Konec Hry posted:But I mean, why do we have to? What part of "our" cultural identity is lost? It's not like things are going to disappear. We will still enjoy snaps, stekt fläsk or whatever, we will still celebrate Midsommar. Some other people won't and will eat and celebrate other things. What, exactly, has been lost or given up here? You don`t actually know any of this. You are just hoping everything will continue as before. Frankly that is just stupid. I am sure Sweden has a swell future ahead. But it won`t be, it cannot remain as it is while still having very liberal immigration policies. When a large section of the population comes from a very different background they are going to start the changing countries they live in. So you really really cannot assume that people will still be doing all of these thing a hundred years from now You would have to concentrate them all in ghetto`s to avoid this. I am not saying anything will be lost. That is your words not mine. But things will change, radically. Only time can tell if this will be a net bonus or not. All that can be done is to embrace and manage this change. The majority population will have to meet the minority half way. Like for instance allowing Sharia courts to abritate in civil cases between muslim and for their verdicts to be legally binding.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:18
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Baudolino posted:You don`t actually know any of this. You are just hoping everything will continue as before. Frankly that is just stupid. I am sure Sweden has a swell future ahead. But it won`t be, it cannot remain as it is while still having very liberal immigration policies. When a large section of the population comes from a very different background they are going to start the changing countries they live in. So you really really cannot assume that people will still be doing all of these thing a hundred years from now You would have to concentrate them all in ghetto`s to avoid this. I am not saying anything will be lost. That is your words not mine. But things will change, radically. Only time can tell if this will be a net bonus or not. All that can be done is to embrace and manage this change. The majority population will have to meet the minority half way. Like for instance allowing Sharia courts to abritate in civil cases between muslim and for their verdicts to be legally binding. Hasn't that been a massive disaster in the UK, not to mention become a great source for screwballs like EDL's propaganda?
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Sep 15, 2014 20:30
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Lunsku posted:So Vänster won't be in a government with S? (working on my seriously underused school svenska here) Man, the leftist part of S has to be loving pissed right now.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:39
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