D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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Grimpond: Dec 24, 2013

Dairy Power posted:

It's a role-playing game.

I think the point that other people are trying to make is that in a role-playing game why is it so hard to believe these trained weapon users have not somehow mastered the skill to load and fire in a smooth, continuous action; say, as part of the attack itself?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 17:53

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# ? May 14, 2024 09:04

Hwurmp: May 20, 2005

Dairy Power posted:

It's a role-playing game. A fireball from a wizard makes sense within the context of the story. Being able to load both crossbows simultaneously without some sort of explanation doesn't to me.

Why does "play the role of a man who makes fire out of nothing" make more sense than "play the role of a man who shoots bows good" to you?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 17:54

Grimpond: Dec 24, 2013

And for the parag0n, here's the specific word block for attack rolls:

DND Basic Rules posted:

Attack Rolls
When you make an attack, your attack roll determines
whether the attack hits or misses. To make an attack
roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers. If the
total of the roll plus modifiers equals or exceeds the
target�s Armor Class (AC), the attack hits. The AC of a
character is determined at character creation, whereas
the AC of a monster is in its stat block.

Modifiers to the Roll
When a character makes an attack roll, the two most
common modifiers to the roll are an ability modifier
and the character�s proficiency bonus. When a monster
makes an attack roll, it uses whatever modifier is
provided in its stat block.

Ability Modifier.
The ability modifier used for a melee
weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used
for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that
have the finesse or thrown property break this rule.
Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability
modifier used for a spell attack depends on the
spellcasting ability of the spellcaster, as explained
in chapter 10.

Proficiency Bonus.
You add your proficiency bonus
to your attack roll when you attack using a weapon with
which you have proficiency, as well as when you attack
with a spell.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 17:56

Jack the Lad: Jan 20, 2009; Feed the Pubs

Dairy Power posted:

It's a role-playing game. A fireball from a wizard makes sense within the context of the story. Being able to load both crossbows simultaneously without some sort of explanation doesn't to me. In Pathfinder you specifically need a free hand to load a ranged weapon, thus freaky alchemist/gunslinger hybrids with extra limbs. It's not specifically stipulated in the rule book here, but the requirement of a "loaded" crossbow in the feat would seem to imply it to me. I'd at least want some sort of fluff explanation about how you were making it happen without putting one crossbow down if I were DMing.

Holy smokes dude.

Firing and reloading a crossbow fast enough to take 8 shots in a matter of seconds: makes sense.

Dragons that can fly: makes sense.

Giants that can walk: makes sense.

Giant insects that can respirate: makes sense.

Everything about magic: makes sense.

Alchemical mutants with extra limbs reloading dual-wielded ranged weapons simultaneously: makes sense.

People with two arms reloading two ranged weapons simultaneously: Doesn't make sense, I'd want an explanation of how you're making it happen and also it's like Diablo 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EflAV7-99FA

Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Sep 16, 2014

# ? Sep 16, 2014 17:56

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

Dairy Power posted:

It's a role-playing game.

So why do you have trouble imagining a bad rear end crossbow expert can't quickly reload crossbows in both hands? Maybe he does some cool juggling act. Maybe he tucks them under his arms and quickly loads and redraws them. Maybe he wears his quivers on his hips and slots a bolt and pulls the cord with a single smooth action. Maybe he builds little hopper magazines onto his crossbows, an invention a childhood gnome friend taught him.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 17:58

Babylon Astronaut: Apr 19, 2012

He has a point, how does a wizard make the waving motion with both hands and dig for a piece of fur at the same time? I tried flashing a gang sign while pulling a live frog out of a bag and trust me, it's impossible.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:01

mastershakeman: Oct 28, 2008; by vyelkin

PeterWeller posted:

So why do you have trouble imagining a bad rear end crossbow expert can't quickly reload crossbows in both hands? Maybe he does some cool juggling act. Maybe he tucks them under his arms and quickly loads and redraws them. Maybe he wears his quivers on his hips and slots a bolt and pulls the cord with a single smooth action. Maybe he builds little hopper magazines onto his crossbows, an invention a childhood gnome friend taught him.

He does that thing Arnold does while riding the motorcycle, except with a crossbow instead of a shotgun.

Going back to the whole melee tank vs ranged attacker issue, isn't one of the fundamental 'problems' with everything but 4e that every class is better off not being attacked so that they can focus on offense. But you can't have an entire party made up of this, because enemies are inevitably going to close in on you, and if you aren't in a dungeon with narrow passageways, the only way I know to solve that is have everyone in heavy armor or dropping a lot of minions into the fight via the casters.

Heck, it's a problem with the campaign I'm currently in - we have a wizard in cloth, a fighter/mage using two weapon fighting and chain mail that he can take on/off fast, a rogue/warrior in leather, and a druid in leather, and only one fighter in plate. Monster summoning spells end up doing tanking more often than not because otherwise the lightly armored guys are going to get pounded on.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:01

Grimpond: Dec 24, 2013

Dairy Power posted:

Diablo 3 style.

I'm a little blown away by this. Are you saying Diablo 3 is bad because it doesn't force players to have to (in this case) manually hit a button to reload?

I mean, isn't that sort of the purpose of having an attack speed? that the reloading is included as part of that function?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:02

RPZip: Feb 6, 2009; WORDS IN THE HEART
CANNOT BE TAKEN

Dairy Power posted:

It's a role-playing game. A fireball from a wizard makes sense within the context of the story. Being able to load both crossbows simultaneously without some sort of explanation doesn't to me. In Pathfinder you specifically need a free hand to load a ranged weapon, thus freaky alchemist/gunslinger hybrids with extra limbs. It's not specifically stipulated in the rule book here, but the requirement of a "loaded" crossbow in the feat would seem to imply it to me. I'd at least want some sort of fluff explanation about how you were making it happen without putting one crossbow down if I were DMing.

It's this move, right here, just with crossbows: http://youtu.be/8OvaSrikG6Q?t=2m52s.

E: Actually, does D&D NEXT specify how long a combat round is? I'm not sure I've seen that mentioned anywhere. Is it just still 6 seconds (haha) because that's what it was in 3e?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:05

Dairy Power: Jul 23, 2013; He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.

Really Pants posted:

Why does "play the role of a man who makes fire out of nothing" make more sense than "play the role of a man who shoots bows good" to you?

D&D is a universe where magic exists and follows its own logic. Loading a crossbow without a hand or the aid of some mechanical device, magic, or what have you doesn't without further explanation. In this case it also comes across as using RAW over RAI to me, which I don't like when the result seems nonsensical to me.

Anyway, in trying to find rulings on this, I've seen this exact argument enough times to know that it never ends with anyone changing their minds. It's an inherent difference in what you want out of a roleplaying game as far as I can tell, and the people I play with are actually more concerned with maintaining an illusion of 'reality' than I am when it comes to this type of thing.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:06

Grimpond: Dec 24, 2013

Ahh, so it's a problem with clashing with your verisimilitude

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:07

Hwurmp: May 20, 2005

What logic does D&D magic follow, exactly?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:08

Nihilarian: Oct 2, 2013

Dairy Power posted:

It's a role-playing game. A fireball from a wizard makes sense within the context of the story. Being able to load both crossbows simultaneously without some sort of explanation doesn't to me. In Pathfinder you specifically need a free hand to load a ranged weapon, thus freaky alchemist/gunslinger hybrids with extra limbs. It's not specifically stipulated in the rule book here, but the requirement of a "loaded" crossbow in the feat would seem to imply it to me. I'd at least want some sort of fluff explanation about how you were making it happen without putting one crossbow down if I were DMing.

I'm guessing this boils down to a difference of philosophies.

Forgot my colons. The smiley catches my intent better than the letters, so I suppose I am grateful for the reminder.

Well, I suppose I can't say no to free if it's supposed to be good. I'll make some time for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6KKJTRRZ-8

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:08

PeterWeller: Apr 21, 2003; I told you that story so I could tell you this one.

mastershakeman posted:

He does that thing Arnold does while riding the motorcycle, except with a crossbow instead of a shotgun.

Exactly! This is basic action movie stuff.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:09

Grimpond: Dec 24, 2013

Really Pants posted:

What logic does D&D magic follow, exactly?

while they maybe have a logical(fiddly math) framework for acquisition, the spells themselves, the ease with which they're acquired, and at higher levels, how some of them fundamentally change how certain parts of the game play out more often then not lead to instances of what some might call caster supremacy.

Now, that doesn't mean that a group of friends can't deal with it and have fun. In the pathfinder game I played, I was the sorcerer, and nobody complained, in part because they were able to have fun doing what they do without holding grudges about how other people played.

but, this also doesn't mean that the system doesn't some very bad, inherent flaws in its design.

So..uh...what was the question again?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:13

ImpactVector: Feb 24, 2007; HAHAHAHA FOOLS!!
I AM SO SMART!

Uh oh. What did he do now?; Nap Ghost

People reload pistols in real life without free hands. Hand crossbows don't seem all that different. And that's real life, not a game of mythic heroes and magic that D&D is supposed to be.

This is even easier if you have a shield, as in the example, since you can have a strapped on shield that leaves most of your fingers free.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:14

Babylon Astronaut: Apr 19, 2012

Frankly, it breaks my verisimilitude that someone with a shortbow can't fire 12 shots in 6 seconds like in real life.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:15

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

I agree, crossbows should be nerfed back into uselessness where they belong. It's only verisimillitudinous.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:15

Sir Kodiak: May 14, 2007

Dairy Power posted:

D&D is a universe where magic exists and follows its own logic. Loading a crossbow without a hand or the aid of some mechanical device, magic, or what have you doesn't without further explanation.

D&D is a universe where one-handed crossbow reloads exist and follow their own logic. You can tell because that's what's in the book with "Dungeons & Dragons" on the cover. You can certainly house-rule anything you want for your own games, but there's not really a question of what D&D 5e is here.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:15

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Really Pants posted:

What logic does D&D magic follow, exactly?

"Because I said so."

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:15

neonchameleon: Nov 14, 2012

Dairy Power posted:

It's a role-playing game. A fireball from a wizard makes sense within the context of the story. Being able to load both crossbows simultaneously without some sort of explanation doesn't to me.

Is the question how you make a simple but forceful mechanical action with only one arm to draw the string back, or how you put a long piece of dowling into a groove where the groove keeps it lined up so you only need a very approximate movement that's baffling you? Because I can think of half a dozen ways of drawing the string back (most of which would be a bad idea IRL) starting with "There's a hook on your belt. Ram the crossbow down hard to catch the string on that hook." Double points if mixed with a goat's foot that works with the trigger mechanism.

quote:

I'd at least want some sort of fluff explanation about how you were making it happen without putting one crossbow down if I were DMing.

I'm guessing this boils down to a difference of philosophies.

Were I DMing I'd assume it was realistic enough for my player. My job is not policing their character concepts that way and preventing them having fun.

Edit: And ffs I was assuming that someone was trying to wield two crossbows rather than having a shield strapped to their forearm.

neonchameleon fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Sep 16, 2014

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:23

Power Player: Oct 2, 2006; GOD SPEED YOU! HUNGRY MEXICAN

Power Player posted:

So, what combat masteries/superiority things should I take? Feinting Attack is a no-brainer, Rally seems nice for the utility, what else should I consider?

Anyone?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 18:52

Dairy Power: Jul 23, 2013; He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.

Ah, sorry guys. I spent some time looking around to see if there was a rules clarification for the 'loaded' phrasing. I didn't realize it was such a hot button issue that was sensitive to talk about, but holy hell there are a lot of 300+ post topics arguing about it. It's a subtle change from earlier editions, and it's one of those things that raises an eyebrow for a lot of folks, myself included. I should have realized that this is a D&D thread, and if it even seems like I'm trying to take a nice thing away from a martial class that I'd cause a lot of stress. I assure all of you, that wasn't my goal. Please accept a formal apology.

I was honestly looking for explanations on how to manage the two handed loading pursuant to a desire for a certain degree of verisimilitude, shared by my local colleagues, once I realized I was mistakenly transposing old rulings. I would like to beg that it be considered that at no point was I saying that I would not allow a martial character in a game run by myself to have said nice thing. I also now realize that invoking Diablo 3 was further folly given the particularly polarizing nature of the game. Please also know that I was neither trying to disparage Dungeons & Dragons 5e nor Diablo 3-- I thoroughly enjoy both. I derive a great deal of joy from visualizing the scenarios involved in this nature of activity, and was having difficulty with this particular one. Diablo 3 was the only frame of reference I could produce at the time. Furthermore, it was with great joy that I viewed the Youtube videos and text descriptions posed as a remedy. Please accept my humblest of apologies.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:06

Slippery42: Nov 10, 2011

Power Player posted:

Anyone?

Goading attack (closest thing you get to a taunt), push attack (knock enemies off cliffs), and trip attack (to help the party maintain their distance from monsters with melee insta-kill abilities) all sound cool, especially for a crossbow expert/sharpshooter fighter. I also like the one that allows you to allow allies who can hear you to use a reaction to move half their speed. My DM likes to start fights where our party is either surrounded or already mixed up with enemies.

Since we're on the topic of crossbow-kata fighters, how are you all interpreting crossbow expert's extra attack? You need to be dual wielding hand crossbows, right? The impression I'm getting from the shield suggestion is that it might let you use your bonus action to fire the mainhand crossbow a second time instead of having to be using a second crossbow. To quote Mike Mearls, "ask your DM"?

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:24

Jack the Lad: Jan 20, 2009; Feed the Pubs

Dairy Power posted:

Ah, sorry guys. I spent some time looking around to see if there was a rules clarification for the 'loaded' phrasing. I didn't realize it was such a hot button issue that was sensitive to talk about, but holy hell there are a lot of 300+ post topics arguing about it. It's a subtle change from earlier editions, and it's one of those things that raises an eyebrow for a lot of folks, myself included. I should have realized that this is a D&D thread, and if it even seems like I'm trying to take a nice thing away from a martial class that I'd cause a lot of stress. I assure all of you, that wasn't my goal. Please accept a formal apology.

I was honestly looking for explanations on how to manage the two handed loading pursuant to a desire for a certain degree of verisimilitude, shared by my local colleagues, once I realized I was mistakenly transposing old rulings. I would like to beg that it be considered that at no point was I saying that I would not allow a martial character in a game run by myself to have said nice thing. I also now realize that invoking Diablo 3 was further folly given the particularly polarizing nature of the game. Please also know that I was neither trying to disparage Dungeons & Dragons 5e nor Diablo 3-- I thoroughly enjoy both. I derive a great deal of joy from visualizing the scenarios involved in this nature of activity, and was having difficulty with this particular one. Diablo 3 was the only frame of reference I could produce at the time. Furthermore, it was with great joy that I viewed the Youtube videos and text descriptions posed as a remedy. Please accept my humblest of apologies.

Unironic big ups on this post if it's not sarcastic - I genuinely can't remember seeing anyone who's made the kinds of arguments you have in this thread being so reasonable or sincere when challenged on them before.

You're right that a big part of the reason people jumped on you is that they've been hearing the same old "It's like a video game" "Magic is verisimilitudinal/cool fighters aren't" etc arguments for a long time.

Slippery42 posted:

how are you all interpreting crossbow expert's extra attack? You need to be dual wielding hand crossbows, right? The impression I'm getting from the shield suggestion is that it might let you use your bonus action to fire the mainhand crossbow a second time instead of having to be using a second crossbow. To quote Mike Mearls, "ask your DM"?

Hand crossbow + shield works RAW: "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding".

Power Player posted:

Anyone?

I was more into Feinting Attack before I realised that Polearm Master and Crossbow Expert basically make mauls obsolete. It clashes with bonus action attacks, so it's actually not that great.

Trip Attack is probably the strongest overall - a turn of attacks with advantage against your now-prone enemy for the entire party is very good.

Menacing Attack is strong if you're ranged.

Riposte is very good just as an extra attack if you're melee.

Commander's Strike if you have a Rogue (to double-dip Sneak Attack - good combo with Trip Attack).

Rally is pretty weak.

SageNytell posted:

If you do try Fate Accelerated, I wish I could be there for the first moment when the scales fall from your players' eyes as they understand that they can literally sass someone to death, and they understand that the possibilities are endless.

Try DW and Fate, you won't regret it.

Seconding this, too.

Jack the Lad fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Sep 16, 2014

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:29

SageNytell: Sep 28, 2008; <REDACT> THIS!

Dairy Power posted:

Ah, sorry guys. I spent some time looking around to see if there was a rules clarification for the 'loaded' phrasing. I didn't realize it was such a hot button issue that was sensitive to talk about, but holy hell there are a lot of 300+ post topics arguing about it. It's a subtle change from earlier editions, and it's one of those things that raises an eyebrow for a lot of folks, myself included. I should have realized that this is a D&D thread, and if it even seems like I'm trying to take a nice thing away from a martial class that I'd cause a lot of stress. I assure all of you, that wasn't my goal. Please accept a formal apology.

I was honestly looking for explanations on how to manage the two handed loading pursuant to a desire for a certain degree of verisimilitude, shared by my local colleagues, once I realized I was mistakenly transposing old rulings. I would like to beg that it be considered that at no point was I saying that I would not allow a martial character in a game run by myself to have said nice thing. I also now realize that invoking Diablo 3 was further folly given the particularly polarizing nature of the game. Please also know that I was neither trying to disparage Dungeons & Dragons 5e nor Diablo 3-- I thoroughly enjoy both. I derive a great deal of joy from visualizing the scenarios involved in this nature of activity, and was having difficulty with this particular one. Diablo 3 was the only frame of reference I could produce at the time. Furthermore, it was with great joy that I viewed the Youtube videos and text descriptions posed as a remedy. Please accept my humblest of apologies.

If you do try Fate Accelerated, I wish I could be there for the first moment when the scales fall from your players' eyes as they understand that they can literally sass someone to death, and they understand that the possibilities are endless.

Try DW and Fate, you won't regret it.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:31

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

RPZip posted:

E: Actually, does D&D 5e specify how long a combat round is? I'm not sure I've seen that mentioned anywhere. Is it just still 6 seconds (haha) because that's what it was in 3e?

It is still six seconds. It was six seconds in 4e too. Nothing changed here.

In other news we now have the monster manual excerpt of the Kobold. http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/excerpt-kobold

I wish we had larger Higher Quality art of it.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:34

MonsterEnvy: Feb 4, 2012; Shocked I tell you

Jack the Lad posted:

Unironic big ups on this post if it's not sarcastic - I genuinely can't remember seeing anyone who's made the kinds of arguments you have in this thread being so reasonable or sincere when challenged on them before.

He is bit like a more agreeable and more likable me.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:36

branar: Jun 28, 2008

Power Player posted:

So, what combat masteries/superiority things should I take? Feinting Attack is a no-brainer, Rally seems nice for the utility, what else should I consider?

Menacing Attack forces a WIS saving throw, and if the target fails it's frightened until your next turn, which is an awesome condition. It's quite good for control purposes.

Menacing Attack also one of the few powers that actually scales reasonably well, which is a problem with a lot of Battlemaster maneuvers.

Conversely, Rally and Parry just scale terribly. Going from a d8 to a d12 and a +2 to a +5 (if that - we're talking about CHA or DEX here) in the relevant stat just doesn't get you that much oomph, period. At level 3, 1d8+2 temp HP is pretty nice - you can get a temp HP buffer equal to 40% of your max health without too much trouble. At level twenty, 1d12+5 might be 10% of your max HP on a *good* roll.

Powers that grant you (or an ally) advantage on a single attack roll are a bit better off, but still not great, because at higher levels multi-attacking is where a lot of damage comes from. Ditto for powers like Riposte - at lower levels getting to use your reaction to make a weapon attack might double your damage for the round. But at higher levels, you may make three or four attacks during your turn, and so getting one more on top of that is a smaller increase.

I'd probably take Feinting Attack/Rally/Menacing Attack if you're just trying to pick 3 and starting at reasonably low level. Riposte is a decent choice too (and Menacing Attack/Riposte have pretty good synergy - impose disadvantage, enemy probably misses you, Riposte it in the face!)

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:38

Power Player: Oct 2, 2006; GOD SPEED YOU! HUNGRY MEXICAN

Jack the Lad posted:

I was more into Feinting Attack before I realised that Polearm Master and Crossbow Expert basically make mauls obsolete. It clashes with bonus action attacks, so it's actually not that great.

Commander's Strike if you have a Rogue (to double-dip Sneak Attack - good combo with Trip Attack).

How does Feinting clash with bonus attacks? Wouldn't it just give you one attack with advantage, and then the rest are regular?

Edit: Thinking Feinting/Menacing/Commander's Strike (we have a rogue) or Trip Attack/Menacing/Commander's Strike.

Power Player fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Sep 16, 2014

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:41

Jack the Lad: Jan 20, 2009; Feed the Pubs

Power Player posted:

How does Feinting clash with bonus attacks? Wouldn't it just give you one attack with advantage, and then the rest are regular?

Edit: Thinking Feinting/Menacing/Commander's Strike (we have a rogue) or Trip Attack/Menacing/Commander's Strike.

I'd go Trip/Commander's and either Menacing or Riposte in your situation.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:44

slydingdoor: Oct 26, 2010; Are you in or are you out?

Power Player posted:

Anyone?

I actually don't like feinting attack, because it has a chance of doing nothing, requires adjacency, and takes up your bonus action, whereas a lot of the other uses are hit confirmed and always at least do extra damage. The only maneuver I like that has a chance to fail and uses up your bonus action is Commander's Strike, if you have a guy with really good single target damage like a wildshape druid or a rogue making an off turn sneak attack. If you really want to hit a target with sky high AC, I suspect Precision Attack and using the bonus action to attack again will be better uses. Could the resident spreadsheet maker check to see how that interacts with the -5 to hit +10 damage feats? I might be wrong on this.

For the "fake crit damage that can also crit" manuevers, I like Menacing Attack the best. It's not size or range locked, messes up enemy mobility, and gives them disadvantage on all attacks and checks as long as you're in line of sight. Put their backs to a corner and it's an immobilize. Kiting with this is excellent. I don't really know why you'd take Goading Attack instead ever, because if god forbid you get KO'd while it's applied the monster might just kill you instead of leaving you unconscious.

Disarming Attack I also like because it screws over casters who didn't pay extra for a component pouch and opted for the focus instead. Also there's the possibility that you fight someone with a better weapon from you and can steal it from them, or take out their shield, which will take away 2 AC and waste their action if they try to put it back on. Finally, it's not useless against non-weapon users, because it saves people who are grappled, which can really suck when a monster has constriction.

Trip Attack depends on your party. If it has ranged attackers and initiative is in the wrong order, you might screw them over by proning something they want to kill. If everyone's melee then go nuts on everything Large or smaller. Good with Sentinel opportunity attacks because putting speed 0 means they can't get up until their next turn. Also, this one makes flying enemies fall.

Pushing Attack is funny if you fight around a lot of hazards--spellcasters can make some nasty ones--or are a halfling that can get under an enemy and launch them into the air with it for falling damage (might be too cool for some DMs). It's also excellent with feats like Polearm Master and Sentinel for a chance of screwing over a melee enemy who lacks reach or tries to bypass you. This can also break grapples, too bad it's only Large or smaller.

Rally is pretty good too, and shines when you have a barbarian buddy or a guy with Heavy Armor Mastery who can multiply the effects of having a bigger HP pool. Saving a barbarian from going down is pretty good too, because it makes them lose their rage. Also using it at the start of the day then doing a quick short rest to get all your dice back is strong. I'd maybe train it out at higher levels, when the Inspiring Leader feat starts looking real good, but keeping it still isn't bad.

The rest I don't really think are good.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:47

Grimpond: Dec 24, 2013

Dairy Power posted:

a very nice apology

It's totally okay to disparage DND. 5e's done some good and bad things with its changes and there's nothing wrong with wanting to discuss them. Most posters are more than willing to acknowledge the issues that come up because of odd design choices

Grimpond fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Sep 16, 2014

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:47

LightWarden: Mar 18, 2007; Lander county's safe as heaven,
despite all the strife and boilin',
Tin Star,
Oh how she's an icon of the eastern west,
But now the time has come to end our song,
of the Tin Star, the Tin Star!

A Catastrophe posted:

I encourage you all to do super duper clever 'gotya' moments towards the people playing full progression spellcasters in your 5e games. That sounds like a fantastic idea.

Arivia posted:

I misread this as a super-clever "Gotye" moment and got really confused.

Manifest Dynasty posted:

"Now you're just somebody who used to know spells..."

PHB posted:

Feeblemind
8th-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 150 feet
Components: V, S, M (a handful of clay, crystal, glass, or mineral spheres)
Duration: Instantaneous
You blast the mind of a creature that you can see within range, attempting to shatter its intellect and personality. The target takes 4d6 psychic damage and must make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the creature�s Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1. The creature can�t cast spells, activate magic items, understand language, or communicate in any intelligible way. The creature can, however, identify its friends, follow them, and even protect them.

At the end of every 30 days, the creature can repeat its saving throw against this spell. If it succeeds on its saving throw, the spell ends. The spell can also be ended by greater restoration, heal, or wish.

With this spell you can shut down clerics, druids, bards, paladins, rangers, sorcerers and warlocks. Wizards are probably fine against it though though.

Edit: Probably should have refreshed the tab.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:48

Dairy Power: Jul 23, 2013; He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.

Jack the Lad posted:

Unironic big ups on this post if it's not sarcastic - I genuinely can't remember seeing anyone who's made the kinds of arguments you have in this thread being so reasonable or sincere when challenged on them before.

You're right that a big part of the reason people jumped on you is that they've been hearing the same old "It's like a video game" "Magic is verisimilitudinal/cool fighters aren't" etc arguments for a long time.

While I was being a little snarky/attempting to be humorous, it was predominately sincere. I very honestly wasn't meaning to start an argument or be rude to anyone, and I hadn't realized the amount of BS that topic has brought about already. It's a discussion my friend and I had before and everything we came up with sounded goofy, and we'd never been entirely sure on the legality even RAW. I do think there is a place for physical actions making sense in our world, while magic getting a pass for being magicky within its own nonsensical rules, but that's up to each playgroup. I honestly don't care enough to not go along with something if the player is having fun and at least describes something instead of simply invoking RAW. And I have genuinely appreciated you pointing out places where I've missed rules or come to faulty conclusions. It's hard to divorce 3.P from 5e, especially since I just started a campaign on Sunday and went through a very painstaking character creation in that edition.

SageNytell posted:

If you do try Fate Accelerated, I wish I could be there for the first moment when the scales fall from your players' eyes as they understand that they can literally sass someone to death, and they understand that the possibilities are endless.

Try DW and Fate, you won't regret it.

My roommate is already annoyed that he's had to learn a new system every time he's played with us (Pathfinder, then Mutants and Masterminds, just recently 5e), so I'm not sure I can get them to go along with trying out both.

I posted in the Dungeon World topic about it, but it's going to be basically based off Deadwood if there were supernatural events and a smidgen of steam punk technology. Lots of settlement building, some political intrigue, and, of course, plenty of violence. Do you have an opinion over which would be better suited for that mechanically? I'm not worried about reflavoring things too much.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:49

Power Player: Oct 2, 2006; GOD SPEED YOU! HUNGRY MEXICAN

Jack the Lad posted:

I'd go Trip/Commander's and either Menacing or Riposte in your situation.

Sounds good. Thank you.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:58

Babylon Astronaut: Apr 19, 2012

DW and Fate are both much, much simpler than Pathfinder.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 19:59

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

LightWarden posted:

With this spell you can shut down clerics, druids, bards, paladins, rangers, sorcerers and warlocks. Wizards are probably fine against it though though.

It's also a 8th level spell and needs to be a first level fighter feature.

E: Brain dashing. Material components: one rock.

# ? Sep 16, 2014 20:00