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BattleMaster posted:I have an HBK-4SP with 4 Medium Lasers and 2 SRM 6s that I haven't altered in like a year and a half and it still plays very well. Yeah, there is a centurian with that same loadout I liked a lot too (the lenturian) 2 ML in the left arm, 2 in the CT, 2 SRM6 in the LT. zombied well and had a longer effective range than the menturian.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:36
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The Cent-A is one of the two robots that I got an 8 kill with. The other was the Gaussapult. RIP Gaussapult 
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Sep 17, 2014 18:16
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Phrosphor posted:Quick thought. Would the removal of DHS for IS mechs and the removal of Ghost Heat fix a lot of problems that both sides of the argument have about the issue? Ghost Heat needs to go, this much is clear. Heat sinks are an interesting story, though. Right now, the rule is that DHS are straight-up better and SHS existing serves mostly as a newbie tax. If you have enough money for DHS, there is no circumstance where you want SHS at all. In MWO heat sinks also handle both dissipation and capacity; how quickly you cool, how hot you can get. So DHS mean you can get hotter more safely, and then cool down more quickly afterward.
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Sep 17, 2014 18:26
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Also a reminder that the in-engine heat sinks cooling 2x as much as SHS was a bug. They were all meant to cool 1.4x as much as a SHS, but after players tested it out and brought it to PGI's attention they said "Oh poo poo, that's how it works? Really? Cool we like it better that way."
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Sep 17, 2014 18:34
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I picked up an Ember to try and master out all of the Firestarters, and it seems like a great way to annoy other mechs simply from the ability of flamers and machine guns to obscure their view. Even if MGs and Flamers don't do much of anything. I got my Goonfleet ESA stuff sorted to get on the gaming mumble, and saw the Word of Lowtax/JadeRaven channels. Is that still where everyone hangs out when playing?
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Sep 17, 2014 18:46
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WARDUKE posted:I picked up an Ember to try and master out all of the Firestarters, and it seems like a great way to annoy other mechs simply from the ability of flamers and machine guns to obscure their view. Even if MGs and Flamers don't do much of anything. Machine guns are actually quiet powerful now, they have very high chance to do critical damage against internal structures once you blasted away the armor, to quote from the mwo wiki. They are not a great primary weapon, but they can bring down wounded mechs in record time. A spider with quad machine guns is a dangerous foe to anyone that lost parts of his armor protection. MWO Wiki posted:Currently, the Machine Gun does very little damage. However, it does incredible damage to internal structural components. It has a 39% chance to deal 1 Critical Hit, 28% chance to deal 2 critical hits, and 6% chance to deal 3 critical hits. The max damage each bullet can do is roughly 3 compared to the normal 0.1 point of damage each bullet does to armor. However if used correctly the machine guns can be used to devastate even assault mechs
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Sep 17, 2014 18:51
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WARDUKE posted:I picked up an Ember to try and master out all of the Firestarters, and it seems like a great way to annoy other mechs simply from the ability of flamers and machine guns to obscure their view. Even if MGs and Flamers don't do much of anything. Most people are down under the True House Liao channels.
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Sep 17, 2014 18:52
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Feindfeuer posted:Machine guns are actually quiet powerful now, they have very high chance to do critical damage against internal structures once you blasted away the armor, to quote from the mwo wiki. They are not a great primary weapon, but they can bring down wounded mechs in record time. A spider with quad machine guns is a dangerous foe to anyone that lost parts of his armor protection. Thanks for the info. Good to know. I managed to tie up an Atlas (even though it had full armor when I started) for about 5 full mins in the first match I played with the Ember just jump jetting, hitting it with MGs, and flaming. It seemed like I was doing no real damage, now I know why. Even so, I know I was annoying the hell out of the pilot. Just need to focus on getting to mechs that are already hurt. EoRaptor posted:Most people are down under the True House Liao channels. Cool. Thanks.
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Sep 17, 2014 18:59
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Chronojam posted:DHS are straight-up better and SHS existing serves mostly as a newbie tax. If you have enough money for DHS, there is no circumstance where you want SHS at all. and it will always stay this way because DHS are designed to be better than SHS. i could ramble about the game design space of mwo all day, but it always leads from one thing to the next ad infinitum. in the end, mwo is unfixable because they have designed themselves into a corner from the very start.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:07
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Chronojam posted:Ghost Heat needs to go, this much is clear. Heat sinks are an interesting story, though. Right now, the rule is that DHS are straight-up better and SHS existing serves mostly as a newbie tax. If you have enough money for DHS, there is no circumstance where you want SHS at all. Well in table-top at least there were edge cases where SHS beat out DHS - the only one I can think of at the moment were some assaults that were more crit-space-limited than tonnage limited; you could fit 3 SHS in the space a single DHS took up, which is 1.5 times the heat management. Dunno if that carries over into MWO in practice.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:12
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WarLocke posted:Well in table-top at least there were edge cases where SHS beat out DHS - the only one I can think of at the moment were some assaults that were more crit-space-limited than tonnage limited; you could fit 3 SHS in the space a single DHS took up, which is 1.5 times the heat management. The really double engine heatsinks for 'free' always tilt the scales too much. DHS is 100% required.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:16
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Chronojam posted:Ghost Heat needs to go, this much is clear. Heat sinks are an interesting story, though. Right now, the rule is that DHS are straight-up better and SHS existing serves mostly as a newbie tax. If you have enough money for DHS, there is no circumstance where you want SHS at all. Well, some kind of mechanism needs to be in place instead of ghost heat, as it'll otherwise bring the pint-point high-damage alpha strike back.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:16
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WarLocke posted:Well in table-top at least there were edge cases where SHS beat out DHS - the only one I can think of at the moment were some assaults that were more crit-space-limited than tonnage limited; you could fit 3 SHS in the space a single DHS took up, which is 1.5 times the heat management. Since crit space works exactly the same in MWO as it does in TT, yeah it kind of does. Heat, in general, is worse in MWO because you have to fire more weapons to get a kill, meaning fights take longer and you generate more heat, and weapons generate more heat more quickly than in TT, and your heatsinks do less in general. As a result, you end up with bizarre cases like how no clan mech in any configuration can manage the heat of firing any variety of 3 medium lasers continuously. ImplicitAssembler posted:Well, some kind of mechanism needs to be in place instead of ghost heat, as it'll otherwise bring the pint-point high-damage alpha strike back. Ghost heat didn't get rid of that. It never left.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:16
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Well, some kind of mechanism needs to be in place instead of ghost heat, as it'll otherwise bring the pint-point high-damage alpha strike back. It never solved the problem in the first place and harmed tons of builds that were not pinpoint at all (splat-cat, for instance). The solution people talked about for the longest time was slowing the PPC because it was the biggest problem, and lo and behold, they finally did that. Guass may yet need to be looked at, but it has always had the issue of being fragile as all hell as well as big and heavy and ammo-based.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:23
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Dumping PPC/Gauss cooldowns to 10+ seconds doesn't harm their status as a poinpoint, long-range sniper, and it greatly wrecks their ability to brawl. In my lovely opinion, that would have fixed them. gently caress ghost heat, gently caress the charging mechanics. The only semi threatening thing ghost heat effectively neuters is dual AC/20 builds, but it only barely does. There are plenty of people that can give a good 1-2 punch with them and not trigger the heat. Ghost heat otherwise affects builds that were solid, but not meta-ruining, like 3+ large lasers.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:28
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SHS start being more efficient for cooling per crit slot taken up at around 18 open crit slots, assuming you are only stuffing 10 heat sinks in the engine. They are never worth it.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:33
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Dumping PPC/Gauss cooldowns to 10+ seconds doesn't harm their status as a poinpoint, long-range sniper, and it greatly wrecks their ability to brawl. In my lovely opinion, that would have fixed them. gently caress ghost heat, gently caress the charging mechanics. That is surely an option, though if PPC and Gauss were both easily synched that could still drop a few mechs before the brawlers get a chance to close in 12v12 (the other thing contributing to balance problems) quote:The only semi threatening thing ghost heat effectively neuters is dual AC/20 builds, but it only barely does. There are plenty of people that can give a good 1-2 punch with them and not trigger the heat. I'd dispute the threatening part, but yeah, nothing game-breaking was killed by ghost heat besides the quad-ppc stalker (and the hex-alker, but that was a silly gimmick that ran an XL in a stalker and it blew up if you looked at it funny). Tons of viable, competitive yet not broken builds were ruined by ghostheat. Lunchback, Large Lenturian, Splat-Cat, Laser-Drill, as well as tons of other builds that could be run now on the new mechs that never got a chance due to ghost heat.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:36
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Well, some kind of mechanism needs to be in place instead of ghost heat, as it'll otherwise bring the pint-point high-damage alpha strike back. I needed that laugh, thank you!
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Sep 17, 2014 19:36
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It hasn't even neutered boomjaegers. You can safely alpha twice and then chain fire after that. Now that poptarting is just about dead this build works great again. So...
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Sep 17, 2014 19:39
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Well, some kind of mechanism needs to be in place instead of ghost heat, as it'll otherwise bring the pint-point high-damage alpha strike back. The problem with MWO was mechs that jumped up, fired 2 or 3 PPC and the gauss rifle, then fell back down behind cover. Mechs used were the Highlander (Any), Victor (Any) and Cataphract (3D). Ghost Heat, a system for producing extra heat if too many weapons of the same type were fired at once, only impacted the 3 PPC builds, the Highlander 732 and 733P. These mechs dropped a PPC for extra ammo or heatsinks, and kept playing as they had before. As a side effect, Ghost Heat also impacted every counter-sniping build, which was any build with 4 or more large or er large lasers, which could place enough damage on a jumping mech to actively discourage it. Any 'laserdrill' style mech build was dead. (Stalker, Awesome) Ghost Heat also impacted SRMs, any attempt to use more than 2 SRM launchers at once now ran hotter. This killed any SRM brawlers. (Atlas, Awesome, Stalker) SRM hit-detection also went to poo poo, putting more nails in that coffin. Brawling died. This was explained as a method for preventing pop tarting and 6 PPC stalker builds. When it was pointed out that nobody ran 6 PPC stalkers, and that poptarting hadn't been impacted at all, several other justifications were trotted out, each more absurd than the last. PGI proved to be extremely tone deaf, and Paul in particular refused to accept that his idea was flawed and did not accomplish any of its stated goals. Alternates suggested to prevent laser boating (lower heat cap, higher disipation) and to prevent poptarting (jump jet nerf, ppc speed nerf) were ignored and/or their proponents banned. Ghost Heat was also applied to ballistics, but in a way that was very confusing. AC/20's got ghost heat if more than one was fired, singling out the only mech that could do this (Jaeger) as a direct nerf. AC/5's, UAC/5's, and AC/10's were left untouched, but AC/2's were also given ghost heat. Firing a single AC/2 would generate this mysterious extra heat, worse than the AC/20. On pointing this out to PGI, this was explained as working as intended. Eventually, PGI tweaked the system not by removing ghost heat, but by slowing the AC/2 cooldown such that it didn't trigger Ghost heat (and revealing Ghost heat functioned on an internal 50ms timer). People then demonstrated that chain-fired AC/2's still got ghost heat, but alpha striking them did not, PGI *again* responded that this was working as intended, and that this was designed to stop cockpit shake spam. Why a shell weighing .006 of a ton would rock a 100 ton assault was never explained. Throughout all this, Paul played tetris and PGI simply banned protesters from their forum. Many people refunded their Phoenix pack purchases in protest, and the playerbase shrank visibly. Today, nothing has changed, except SRM hit detection seems to work again.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:42
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Mindblast posted:It hasn't even neutered boomjaegers. You can safely alpha twice and then chain fire after that. Now that poptarting is just about dead this build works great again. So... And AC40 mechs were never really a problem, the weight made it so that was about all you were bringing and the explodey ammo and XL engines needed to make it work made the mech itself fairly fragile. Lights could handle them no problem before HSR.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:43
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axelsoar posted:That is surely an option, though if PPC and Gauss were both easily synched that could still drop a few mechs before the brawlers get a chance to close in 12v12 (the other thing contributing to balance problems) That is true, but I think 12v12 is a whole other bucket of garbage. Even if weapons get well-balanced, just having that many players throw some damage at one target is enough to cripple or outright kill them. It's not even a weight issue, because so many lights nowadays carry ER LLs or some form of PPC. Edit: With the AC40 mechs, I never worried about boom cats or jaegers because they were so slow and/or unarmoured, but we're bringing in assaults that can tote that armament now, so it possibly could have become a problem.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:43
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double riveting posted:and it will always stay this way because DHS are designed to be better than SHS. i could ramble about the game design space of mwo all day, but it always leads from one thing to the next ad infinitum. Oh, just off the top of my loving head, dhs gives you better hear dissipate but zero additional heat capacity. Shs does both. Adjust numbers, boom, poo poo is balanced. Good thing I took 3 loving seconds to think about it. Legit Businessman fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 20:00
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Well, some kind of mechanism needs to be in place instead of ghost heat, as it'll otherwise bring the pint-point high-damage alpha strike back. Ghost heat did not do a single thing about 2PPC1Gauss which was the #1 dominant build at the time Ghost Heat was introduced. Ghost heat ruined SRM-heavy builds, which were an arm-mounted and ammunition-limited super-close-range build. Ghost heat made it so that LRMs fired in groups of 30, 40, or 50 do not have heat scale the way you'd think. Ghost heat gutted the 2xAC20 build that only fit in a couple of mechs and was very close range, and interfered with mid-range laser builds popular on smaller mechs. Ghost heat did not do a single thing about 2PPC1Gauss which was the #1 dominant build at the time Ghost Heat was introduced except make it more popular by directly killing its counters and competition.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:13
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Drewjitsu posted:Oh, just off the top of my loving head, dhs gives you better hear dissipate but zero additional heat capacity. Shs does both. I actually suggested something like that, with SHS having the most Capacity per ton / IS-DHS coming next and C-DHS having the lowest heat capacity per ton. This would still make SHS the worst option but would at least have helped stock/trial mechs. Though the new trial mechs solve this problem somewhat. Mind you that was nearly 2 years ago.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:13
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Chronojam posted:Ghost heat did not do a single thing about 2PPC1Gauss which was the #1 dominant build at the time Ghost Heat was introduced. "B-but it stopped 6PPC stalkers, so you should stop whining about it!" - Some idiot on reddit
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Sep 17, 2014 20:15
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DHS need to give less capacity than SHS, but be the full 2x cooling rate, and eliminate most of the base capacity. It's equivalent to all your weapons and movement producing more heat for the greater dissipation rate. Then you can adjust clan weapon heat downwards. Then you can make hero IS mechs with single omni hardpoints to take advantage of the 'relative' heat efficiency. Number wise, it needs to be that DHS give twice the cooling rate for half the capacity. What this leads to is high-alpha builds too easily blowing their scale in just one shot unless they go singles, but then they must sacrifice tonnage to reach acceptable dissipation rates with SHS. It's not hard. The problem is it's just like the laser differentiation thing: It requires actual design skills instead of just numberwang, which  is absolute staggering poo poo at.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:16
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maybe instead of ghost heat they could have big guns reload one at a time and ppcs charge up real slow after being fired at the same time. There's so many things they could have done that isn't ghost heat. Was ghost heat easiest way to try and balance their game, would trying anything else have taken too much effort, time or something?
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Sep 17, 2014 20:16
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To be honest, 2PPC1Gauss was continually strengthened by not just ghost heat, but all sorts of other choices that limited its competition. Changes to hill climbing made perching somewhere, and jumpsniping, all the more safer to being beat up by brawling mechs and gave you targets that could easily slow down or come to a dead stop depending on the slopes and rocks on any given map. Ghost heat is just particularly awful because it fucks up so many things directly that had been valid, and it's largely invisible -- you can't see it actively loving you, it's never really depicted and it's very poorly understood.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:17
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RobotJoe posted:maybe instead of ghost heat they could have big guns reload one at a time and ppcs charge up real slow after being fired at the same time. There's so many things they could have done that isn't ghost heat. Was ghost heat easiest way to try and balance their game, would trying anything else have taken too much effort, time or something? They spent valuable programming time implementing it instead of literally changing a couple numbers in a single XML file. There is literally nothing that ghost heat "fixed" that could not have been addressed, better, without any additional code, by the proper application of excel and some test builds.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:23
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Honestly everyone should feel BLESSED that they even deigned to inform you about Ghost Heat. In Paul's initial design doc write-ups literally the main driving impetus behind it was that it would be 'invisible' so it would fix things without people needed to change the way they played/built mechs. Anyone who doesn't understand this simply needs to spend more time on Candy Crush.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:40
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Is there any real point to the Orion? (clan mechs not withstanding) It seems that it's a middle-of-the-road mech that doesn't do anything particularly well, unlike for example the Timber Wolf. Battle Masters and Victors run at the same speed or faster while carrying more weapons. And other IS heavies can specialize better. It just feels like the Orion is one of those outdated 1930s tank designs when compared to other options for both the IS and clan mechs.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:21
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How dare you slight the Great Kerensky's preferred 'mech. :sldf: The Orion looks awesome. Is any other reason needed?
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Sep 17, 2014 21:29
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Dramicus posted:Is there any real point to the Orion? (clan mechs not withstanding) It seems that it's a middle-of-the-road mech that doesn't do anything particularly well, unlike for example the Timber Wolf. Battle Masters and Victors run at the same speed or faster while carrying more weapons. And other IS heavies can specialize better. There are better heavies, but comparing it to assaults is a bit unfair. The AC/20 is positioned almost directly under the cockpit, so it's easy to aim with, and though I haven't tried it recently, I bet Edward Missilehands is a good build again. Like many heavies, though, it is trapped where it often needs an XL engine but doesn't have the shape or durability to survive taking one.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:32
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Dramicus posted:Is there any real point to the Orion? (clan mechs not withstanding) It seems that it's a middle-of-the-road mech that doesn't do anything particularly well, unlike for example the Timber Wolf. Battle Masters and Victors run at the same speed or faster while carrying more weapons. And other IS heavies can specialize better. The Orion is the oldest BattleMech still in service with, I believe, the Imp being right behind it. Also don't diss the Orion it's OG as gently caress. vvvvv  vvvvv
BattleTech fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 21:33
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Dramicus posted:Is there any real point to the Orion? (clan mechs not withstanding) It seems that it's a middle-of-the-road mech that doesn't do anything particularly well, unlike for example the Timber Wolf. Battle Masters and Victors run at the same speed or faster while carrying more weapons. And other IS heavies can specialize better. The only point of it is that the -VA can be Edward Missilehands.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:37
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I was always amused by how the Orion, Cyclops, and Atlas were like different sized versions of the same thing.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:38
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BattleMaster posted:I was always amused by how the Orion, Cyclops, and Atlas were like different sized versions of the same thing. The finest of military procurement traditions.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:45
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"Take my Orion. Make it as big as you can, a hundred tons. Make all the guns bigger, and big fuckoff fists to punch assholes with and give it a sick 'n nasty skullface." - Alexsandr Kerensky, birth of the Atlas
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Sep 17, 2014 21:52
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Cyclops became a good command and EWAR mech, yeah? Orion was just Mr. Autocannon in the end.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:55
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