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I wrote maybe, and I didnt say close the borders so please dont put words in my mouth. And yes sweden is a rich country, and while immigration may not cost a lot of money, there is still the issue with building houses, creating jobs, welfare,education, therapy and so on. And no I wont give you any numbers cuz im not into D&D style debating(I actually agree with most "naive" lefties here in this so startin a debate about this feels stupid) . But no we were not fine before the reinfeldt era, there still was a problem with most immigrants being put in the förorter(I dont like the word ghetto when talking about sweden) The issues with the way the swedish governments have been handling integration goes back quite a long way, and you might think something else and that is OK, but my experiences tells me something different, so I see things in a different light, but I aint sayin im right.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:10
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I find it hilarious that fascists keep spouting "all the lefties flee the suburbs so they don't have to see the chaos they cause" when in reality SD is the strongest where immigrants are the fewest and the weakest in the suburbs.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:12
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Zombiepop posted:I wrote maybe, and I didnt say close the borders so please dont put words in my mouth. And yes sweden is a rich country, and while immigration may not cost a lot of money, there is still the issue with building houses, creating jobs, welfare,education, therapy and so on. A lot of that could be done by the immigrants themselves (at least labor).
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Sep 17, 2014 21:16
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computer parts posted:A lot of that could be done by the immigrants themselves (at least labor). But since liberal market economy/free market is bullshit they're not building homes so they can continue to rack up rents and raise the demand. And the homes they build are too expensive for most of the people needing them and at the same time they force gentrification on the few areas where people with less to no income at all can actually live.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:20
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Yeah that would be great, too bad not even the socialist built any houses during the babyboom ca 1990 or later on. But all in all I agree with you rutkowski. btw regarding your comment about fascist talking about lefties fleeing from the orten, that wasnt referring to me right?
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Sep 17, 2014 21:28
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Rutkowski posted:help create a demand Stop, the 1930s wants its economics back. You realise that at the margins, increased consumption for its own sake merely consumes hard currency and limited physical resources? Broken window fallacy.
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Sep 17, 2014 21:32
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Zombiepop posted:Yeah that would be great, too bad not even the socialist built any houses during the babyboom ca 1990 or later on. But all in all I agree with you rutkowski. btw regarding your comment about fascist talking about lefties fleeing from the orten, that wasnt referring to me right?
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Sep 17, 2014 21:57
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Oh thats vague. But I dont think anyone in this thread has made that statement so I dont know why you would write that.
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Sep 17, 2014 22:00
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TheFluff posted:"Most" being the ~55-60% number getting a temporary permit I mentioned? You're free to get your statistics right at the same source where I got them: http://www.migrationsverket.se/Om-Migrationsverket/Statistik.html Heja heja, only 50% are "temporary". You think they will ever get a "get out of here, go back home" stamp? How do you send anyone away? Which was what we people who don't really believe in the system were talking about. And even if only 30% or 50% of the seekers were somehow via magic sent away on a magic carpet and actually left (which will not happen), 30k or 50k is a fuckton. And their family members who were not along will follow the year or the second after via family re-unification. Like, 10 x more then your neighbours. It's not a few thousand here and there like you said and which you can laugh about and then ignore. But that's not a worry, if you can house, feed and find work for all of them without major issues and they don't hate your guts - all of that is no problem. If it is sustainable, I will applaud and admit: I was wrong. But as long as the are people who live in suburbs with 95% non-native background, most of them unemployed, and stone the police and the emergency services when they come about, I refuse to belive it's a cool and awesome thing from which everyone benefits and is enrichened by. I know I know, the next (counter) argument is that people in the hoods don't really harass postal workers, firemen, the police or construction workers or anyone to begin with, the stones just happened to fly from space so it's all a myth when you read about it from (probably evil, right-wing or nazi) newspapers, or then they are just bizarre local one-off situations. Which occur repeateadly. By chance. In the same places every time. If someone suggest so, like people in SA & D&D have in the past, I don't take very seriously that the community is forced to behave like so since they live in the "ghetto" (= 10 x better and safer than invaded Kurdistan or combat area Syria or most of Somalia) and simply must stone emergency crews and each other...: nobody forces them. They are human beings. They made their choice, and they got the idea from someone who told them it was a good idea. Sweden, like Finland, has hundreds of thousands of native, very poor people: students, pensioners, and so on, who mostly live in subsidized housing who do nothing like that, ever. Especially in groups. Uniting to fight the police or emergency crews in some area is simply unthinkable. And for the better too, because that is a really lovely attitude to have. IIRC there are zero (0) cases in Finnish history where ambulance or firecrew have been attacked or stoned by local youth gangs more or less randomly, or construction workers driven out of their site becaue they were of the wrong ethnic group. Maybe a few times when some sort of anarchists have burned down a house but regularly in some area? Naaaah. But in Sweden: ALL OF THAT IS NORMAL! WE HELP THE WORLD BE A BETTER PLACE! AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE A RACIST!!!1#
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Sep 17, 2014 22:28
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Ligur posted:But in Sweden: ALL OF THAT IS NORMAL! WE HELP THE WORLD BE A BETTER PLACE! AND IF YOU DISAGREE YOU ARE A RACIST!!!1# Tbf, the swedish immigrant situation is used as textbook scenario regarding failed integration combined with thoughtless spending throughout scandinavia.
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Sep 17, 2014 22:34
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Ligur posted:
Are you going to talk about the Knockout Game next or are you just accidentally cribbing points from Sean Hannity?
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Sep 17, 2014 22:35
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computer parts posted:Are you going to talk about the Knockout Game next or are you just accidentally cribbing points from Sean Hannity? Just trying to annoy you, prolly.
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Sep 17, 2014 22:36
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Ligur posted:Just trying to annoy you, prolly. It's not annoying, it's hilarious. It's like the last time D&D had a thread about the Roma and all of the Europeans went "but it's okay to be racist against them because they're actually thieving scum!"
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Sep 17, 2014 22:38
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computer parts posted:It's not annoying, it's hilarious. I'm glad you also find this hilarious.
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Sep 17, 2014 22:39
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More "you" than "it", I'd wager.
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Sep 17, 2014 22:53
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computer parts posted:Are you going to talk about the Knockout Game next or are you just accidentally cribbing points from Sean Hannity? Well it did happen, didn't it? I mean, the Husby stuff spread and there were quite a lot of burned cars where I live. Just from statistics on demographics, you could probably say with some certainty that those that did this were "non-natives". But the same statistics will probably say that they were on the bottom of the socio-economic scale. In Sweden (and elsewhere, I guess), these two are often connected, but it's not as if being an immigrant means that you are poor or uneducated for life, it just means that there is a higher probability of that being your starting point. Also, they are probably teenagers and kids, and they are stupid as all hell, even if they are Anton the aryan poster child. Hell we used to fake beatings by the road just to see if someone stopped if they saw 20 young guys beating on 1 guy. And almost all of us were "natives". I'm rambling a bit, but it's stupid kids, doing stupid stuff, just that this stupid stuff is much more stupid and more dangerous than 20 years ago. Or maybe not, I don't remember stuff like this when I was a kid, but then again, I didn't really follow the news. I'm very doubtful that it's because they are named Osman and Ibrahim instead of Joakim and Fredrik. catbread.jpg posted:Stop, the 1930s wants its economics back. You realise that at the margins, increased consumption for its own sake merely consumes hard currency and limited physical resources? Broken window fallacy. nagel fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 23:20
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Konec Hry posted:More "you" than "it", I'd wager. What are you, some kind of a HOMOSEXUAL? Wouldn't be surprised, looking at your avatar... or more like fagatar. edit: yes, isn't that Princess, the gay song writer and pianist (I looked it up) who wanted nothing more than to prance like a woman, even though he was a man, and snort coke to get AIDS. I imagine a person like that is also pro-immigration and especially pro-muslim as they are well known for their tolerance of minorities, especially the gay ones (bonus score for Iraq shiites). Ligur fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 23:36
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Anyway, is there any political party who support euthanasia?TheFluff posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnk7huxeIbo
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Sep 17, 2014 23:57
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What's actually better in Norway, Finland or Denmark? It's not like their economic situation is any better...
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Sep 18, 2014 06:07
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zokie posted:What's actually better in Norway, Finland or Denmark? It's not like their economic situation is any better... Norway will be able to lean back on its oil for next 100 or so years almost no matter how much it's mismanaged.
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Sep 18, 2014 06:19
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catbread.jpg posted:Stop, the 1930s wants its economics back. You realise that at the margins, increased consumption for its own sake merely consumes hard currency and limited physical resources? Broken window fallacy. Aggregate demand as a driver of economic growth is by no means an outdated or disproven concept, you know that right? The only major thing disproven from the 1930s economic consensus was that unemployment and inflation are mutually exclusive. Also guys, if it helps, the arguments being trotted out by the anti-immigration types in this thread are the same ones that Australians pull about our immigration and asylum seeker intake, and we barely take any at all.
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Sep 18, 2014 07:35
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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Ligur posted:What are you, some kind of a HOMOSEXUAL? Wouldn't be surprised, looking at your avatar... or more like fagatar. you know, it's funny, if you lean away from the monitor while looking at the text in this post and sort of squint and kinda lean your head and shift your neck a little it sort of looks like a huge neon red sign spelling out "unfunny dumbass" it's pretty interesting, you should try it
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Sep 18, 2014 09:06
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computer parts posted:It's not annoying, it's hilarious. They totally are tough. We must tolerate them since there is no other choice. But i have nothing positive to say about them, not a word. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 18, 2014 09:50
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Baudolino posted:They totally are tough. We must tolerate them since there is no other choice. But i have nothing positive to say about them, not a word. Uh, I'd like to call bullshit on that. We've had rumanian beggars on our streets for the better part of the year in Sweden and the only major crime they've contributed to so far is people harassing them and burning their camps. They're amazingly benevolent when you compare it to just how lovely their situation is.
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Sep 18, 2014 10:06
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CAN WE KEEP THIS THREAD ABOUT loving POLITICS IN loving SWEDEN GOOD loving GOD! SHUT THE gently caress UP LIGUR.
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Sep 18, 2014 11:06
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Xoidanor posted:Uh, I'd like to call bullshit on that. We've had rumanian beggars on our streets for the better part of the year in Sweden and the only major crime they've contributed to so far is people harassing them and burning their camps. They're amazingly benevolent when you compare it to just how lovely their situation is. I still don`t have to like them. Don`t worry i wont help people burn down their camps or anything. I just wont prevent it. The beggars you have seen may be benign but i have seen otherwise. You should also remember that not every gipsy is a beggar, some of them are just plain old criminals. I don`t feel obligated to adore people like that.
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Sep 18, 2014 12:48
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Baudolino posted:I still don`t have to like them. Don`t worry i wont help people burn down their camps or anything. I just wont prevent it. Please stop with this bullshit. thanks.
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Sep 18, 2014 12:58
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Baudolino posted:I still don`t have to like them. Don`t worry i wont help people burn down their camps or anything. I just wont prevent it. some of them are even human i've heard
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Sep 18, 2014 13:04
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Rutkowski posted:More like; the immigrants help create a demand(housing, in this example). As such, in a free market economy the companies should be lining up to build apartment blocks, giving the builder industry a lot of money and employing more people, both those who were here before and newly arrived interested and trained in the field. New blocks require more stores, more infrastructure, more everything. Economy grows, refugees get a safer place to live and so does those of us who are homeless, looking for home, about to be homeless, living on couches, living with parents and so on. Holy poo poo, this thread have moved fast during the last week. Also LOL at Sweden having a free market economy. As for the cost of immigration, this was published in DN 2009 and promptly forgotten when SD came in 2010. http://www.dn.se/debatt/arbetskraftsinvandring-hjalper-inte-offentlig-sektor/ The positive economical effects of immigrants is apparently minimal given a similar employment level as native Swedes. This basically says that the whole argument of immigrants being a future source of prosperity and wealth is wrong. Best case scenario is +/-=0.
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Sep 18, 2014 13:49
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Cardiac posted:Holy poo poo, this thread have moved fast during the last week. Also LOL at Sweden having a free market economy. Youre a loving idiot bub. Immigration = Population increase. Pupulation Increase = GDP Growth. It's really that simple even if it won't change much with unemployment rates. Birth rates are way too low in Sweden even with immigration at current levels.
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Sep 18, 2014 13:58
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Youre a loving idiot bub. China and India are the two most prosperous countries in the world as a result of following this simple rule.
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Sep 18, 2014 14:16
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on the left posted:China and India are the two most prosperous countries in the world as a result of following this simple rule. Their GDP are growing at a higher rate than most other nations.
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Sep 18, 2014 14:20
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Cardiac posted:Also LOL at Sweden having a free market economy. hello it's 2014 not 1974
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Sep 18, 2014 14:41
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computer parts posted:Their GDP are growing at a higher rate than most other nations. Yeah, because having a bunch of surplus population allows you to treat your population like poo poo to secure an economic advantage. Sweden probably isn't planning on sending these people to work camps like the Chinese do.
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Sep 18, 2014 15:19
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on the left posted:Yeah, because having a bunch of surplus population allows you to treat your population like poo poo to secure an economic advantage. Sweden probably isn't planning on sending these people to work camps like the Chinese do. Well if they're like Australia there will be camps of some sort.
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Sep 18, 2014 15:29
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Ligur posted:Heja heja, only 50% are "temporary". You think they will ever get a "get out of here, go back home" stamp? How do you send anyone away? Which was what we people who don't really believe in the system were talking about. And even if only 30% or 50% of the seekers were somehow via magic sent away on a magic carpet and actually left (which will not happen), 30k or 50k is a fuckton. And their family members who were not along will follow the year or the second after via family re-unification. Like, 10 x more then your neighbours. It's not a few thousand here and there like you said and which you can laugh about and then ignore. 30k refugees really isn't anything special either, we've hit that number in a year several times since the 80's, the peak being 45k in 1994. Have some hard numbers: http://www.migrationsverket.se/download/18.5e83388f141c129ba6313943/1400506277636/tab1.pdf I would also like to reiterate that regardless how much you keep screaming about all these large numbers of scary brown people, the raw number of people we let in isn't the problem. Our failed integration policy is the problem, and it is a problem we have to solve regardless of whether we let in five thousand people or fifty thousand. TheFluff fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 15:58
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The immigrants we really should keep an eye on are the perfidious British  I mean, I'm not racist and I'm good friends with at least one semi-British Just sayin'
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Sep 18, 2014 16:13
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Regarding immigration numbers, I went through them in another thread a while ago.Rutkowski posted:Mass immigration is a myth.
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Sep 18, 2014 16:23
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Pimpmust posted:The immigrants we really should keep an eye on are the perfidious British There are more recent reasons to worry: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/20/spain-expat-elections-power-british quote:An impassioned Colin Timms was on the campaign stump in Rojales, eastern Spain, just around the corner from The George pub and a shopping street packed with bars offering Tetley's beer, all-day British breakfasts, karaoke nights and evening quizzes.
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Sep 18, 2014 16:29
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Atal Vataman posted:some of them are even human i've heard If you are implying that i do not see them as human you are wrong. They are just one of many groups i dislike based on my personal interaction with them. It`s no different form you disliking SD really. You view them as negative but do not deny their humanity. So it is with me and gigpsies. But back to the topic of swedish politics. NATO Membership: Will the next goverment want to figth for it or is that a dead duck?
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Sep 18, 2014 16:57
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