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Slashrat posted:What kind of mining equipment makes a fireball that big? Rock blasting explosives.
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Sep 20, 2014 13:29
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fatherboxx posted:Rock blasting explosives. I bet a dust explosion could do it too, if they were kicking up particulates of something flammable for years. Be pretty coincidental timing though.
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Sep 20, 2014 13:34
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Slashrat posted:What kind of mining equipment makes a fireball that big? Could be gas reservoirs of sorts blowing up. Only gas, dust or explosives make a fireball rising high. Anything else will burn on the ground.
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Sep 20, 2014 13:53
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The Crimean Tatar library in Simferopol will be liquidated and replaced with a Russian state institution. http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/144786/russians-move-to-liquidate-crimean-tatar-library
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Sep 20, 2014 13:56
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Forgall posted:Don't you have your own thread now to poo poo up with your apologia. It's really not that difficult to understand Majorian's position on this situation. I haven't seen him defend Putin's actions as the right thing to do, he's merely providing background and perspective as to why the Kremlin is doing what it's doing. I sure as hell prefer his posts over more "fukkin' Russia man lol" bullshit. Besides, he has said numerous times that he doesn't agree with Putin's reasons for being a warmonger, he's just providing a backdrop of what they're using to sell the conflict back in Russia.
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Sep 20, 2014 15:49
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Dusty Baker 2 posted:It's really not that difficult to understand Majorian's position on this situation. I haven't seen him defend Putin's actions as the right thing to do, he's merely providing background and perspective as to why the Kremlin is doing what it's doing. It seems that for someone that values realism and serious analysis so much there is a severe naivete in taking everything/anything at face value that the guys who have been destabilizing and invading their neighbors for years have to say. "The Germans are angry because the West hosed them over in Versailles, anything we do will only escalate things, maybe we should just let them have their sphere of influence so they can save face and feel safer in a few years" is a poo poo proposition no matter how seeped in "understanding their motivations" it is. quote:he's just providing a backdrop of what they're using to sell the conflict back in Russia. MeLKoR fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 16:23
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A couple of weeks ago we identified what appeared to be the same Buk linked to the downing of MH17 inside Russia a few weeks before July 17th. We're now looking for every image we can find of Ukrainian and Russian Buks so we can check if there's any other Buks with markings that are anywhere near to being the same as the ones on the MH17 Buk to establish the likelihood it's sheer coincidence the markings on the two Buks we've spotted match so well. There's more details here for anyone who wants to get involved.
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Sep 20, 2014 16:45
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MeLKoR posted:"The Germans are angry because the West hosed them over in Versailles, anything we do will only escalate things, maybe we should just let them have their sphere of influence so they can save face and feel safer in a few years" is a poo poo proposition no matter how seeped in "understanding their motivations" it is. The issue is in the long term what do you do with such a state if you back it up in a corner with a bunch of nukes? Revanchism isn't "okay" but at the same time there is the practically of you are facing a very dangerous entity that is gaining strength and in some ways its internal politics are unpredictable. One big reason appeasement happened was that Britain and France were obviously in no condition to fight in the late 1930s and a French assault into Germany was very likely to fail. To be honest, I think the West today gives even less of a poo poo about Ukraine than they do Czechoslovakia.
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Sep 20, 2014 16:46
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MeLKoR posted:Correction, why the Kremlin says it is doing it. We already know why they claim they are doing what they are doing, we just think they are full of poo poo. Someone compared it with Nazi Germany and apart from the obvious fact that Putin isn't Hitler the rest of the comparison is sound. First of all why should we believe what "Germany" claims are their motivations and second why should we care what their motivations are when they are trouncing their neighbors? Your assuming that without Hitler war wouldn't have happened. The Treat of Versailles created a situation where the British and French were happy, the US indifferent and USSR, Germany, Japan and Italy were unhappy. That peace was never going to be sustainable. Understanding that when powerful nations do not have a stake in the peace wars happen is important. Especially in a time with Russian power returning and the rise of China. Add in that any war between the West and Russia is likely to lead to hundreds of millions dead and all of our cities turned to ash. Yeah it's better to take the time to understand what other peoples motivations are rather than taking the easy way out and just declaring everyone we don't like as evil.
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Sep 20, 2014 16:52
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axelord posted:Add in that any war between the West and Russia is likely to lead to hundreds of millions dead and all of our cities turned to ash. Yeah it's better to take the time to understand what other peoples motivations are rather than taking the easy way out and just declaring everyone we don't like as evil. In this case "the other person's motivation" is obviously grabbing as much land as possible while claiming to be a victim while we run around trying to figure out if their "paranoia" would go so far as to engulf the entire world in nuclear war. Hint, they wouldn't. As pointed out Putin isn't Hitler. He'll do as far as he sees weakness in the western response and no further. Times and technology have changed, no one is going to make a grab for the Sudetenland at the cost of nuclear war. The Russians have been playing the victim card as a means of dividing public opinion in the west long enough to allow them to achieve their goals. I believe the Russian claims that they are doing this because they feel their hand is being forced as much as I believe that GWB really thought Saddam was behind 9/11.
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Sep 20, 2014 17:01
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MeLKoR posted:In this case "the other person's motivation" is obviously grabbing as much land as possible while claiming to be a victim while we run around trying to figure out if their "paranoia" would go so far as to engulf the entire world in nuclear war. Fine, you can ignore their claimed reasons, but still acknowledge that the motivations that led up to the situation are pretty complex even if you think Putin is just an autocratic bully. I don't buy that the Russians are just crazy people led by a mad man either.
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Sep 20, 2014 17:20
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The Russian claim is that they aren't doing anything, but brave patriots in eastern Ukraine are fighting for their rights and Russia condemns terrorism and fascism. I don't recall any statements from the Kremlin that they're deliberately destabilising and dominating their neighbours due to paranoia towards NATO expansion.
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Sep 20, 2014 17:23
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MeLKoR posted:In this case "the other person's motivation" is obviously grabbing as much land as possible while claiming to be a victim while we run around trying to figure out if their "paranoia" would go so far as to engulf the entire world in nuclear war. Everyone knew before World War 1 that any War between the Great Powers would be a disaster for all involved. It still happened and was an even greater disaster then anyone had expected. Yet afterwards they created a peace that would only lead to another war. Don't bet on nuclear war being impossible people are very stupid. And it's not figuring out Russian "paranoia" if you surround someone and back them into a corner they are going to feel threaten and become aggressive. That's how people react, it shouldn't be a surprise. The West's power has limitations, it is easier for Russia to exert it's power in Ukraine then the West just by Russia being next to Ukraine. At the same time the West doesn't have the desire to spend it's blood and treasure to defend Ukraine. While Russia does. Knowing that the West and the people of Ukraine would be better off making a deal with Russia. No that's not fair and Ukraine should be able to do as it pleases without Russian interference but that is not how the world works.
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Sep 20, 2014 17:32
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MeLKoR, I'm going to respond to your posts in the Clancychat thread, so that I don't end up hijacking this thread again.
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Sep 20, 2014 17:35
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Brown Moses posted:A couple of weeks ago we identified what appeared to be the same Buk linked to the downing of MH17 inside Russia a few weeks before July 17th. We're now looking for every image we can find of Ukrainian and Russian Buks so we can check if there's any other Buks with markings that are anywhere near to being the same as the ones on the MH17 Buk to establish the likelihood it's sheer coincidence the markings on the two Buks we've spotted match so well. There's more details here for anyone who wants to get involved. While I admire your efforts, I can't help but imagine how demoralizing it is to know how little impact the truth has on the conflict or what people say about it. People believe what they want to believe, and catching a great power in a lie is meaningless since there isn't actually any way to punish them for just continuing to repeat the lie. Even their own people who are invested in the lie being true are happy to willfully ignore the truth when convenient. This doesn't just apply to the Buk, but the whole of your work and probably to quite a lot of journalism as a whole. The truth is all but powerless. The one thing I can think of that it achieved in this thread is people advancing a more pro-Russian view in this thread eased off suggesting it could've been the Ukrainian government and switched to downplaying what it meant since other airliners had been shot down before.
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Sep 20, 2014 17:44
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MeLKoR posted:Correction, why the Kremlin says it is doing it. We already know why they claim they are doing what they are doing, we just think they are full of poo poo. Someone compared it with Nazi Germany and apart from the obvious fact that Putin isn't Hitler the rest of the comparison is sound. First of all why should we believe what "Germany" claims are their motivations and second why should we care what their motivations are when they are trouncing their neighbors? Yeah I worded that wrong, but you're right. I didn't mean to frame it as the actual reasons they're acting the way they are, just the reasons they're selling for their behavior. Also you posted wrong, you were supposed to call me an idiot and talk down to me in a condescending way. Don't you know anything?! 
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Sep 20, 2014 17:48
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axelord posted:Everyone knew before World War 1 that any War between the Great Powers would be a disaster for all involved. It still happened and was an even greater disaster then anyone had expected. Yet afterwards they created a peace that would only lead to another war. Don't bet on nuclear war being impossible people are very stupid.
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Sep 20, 2014 18:30
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Kindness. Igor (Котыч) Strelkov
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Sep 20, 2014 20:19
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Why is Blofeld wearing army fatigues?
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Sep 20, 2014 20:24
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Ukraine Today with report about Sunday Peace Marches in Moscow. 21 September. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI7SDN8lrfc Time machine in action. Amazing Ukraine's nanotechnologys.
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Sep 20, 2014 20:36
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TeodorMorozov posted:Ukraine Today with report about Sunday Peace Marches in Moscow. 21 September.
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Sep 20, 2014 20:45
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MeLKoR posted:It's really no surprise that a lot of people are calling you out, if everybody is "getting you wrong" maybe you should try to figure out what is making people think that? Like 99% of all analogies ever made, this is terrible. A wife beater can be arrested by police and stopped. There are no world police, regardless of what you think about the US military. It's hard to come to terms with impotence, I know, but most problems can't be solved by force.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:04
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TeodorMorozov posted:Ukraine Today with report about Sunday Peace Marches in Moscow. 21 September. Sooo is your complaint that the wording is misleading, because that footage does appear to be of the March anti-war protests in Russia just like the narrator says?
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Sep 20, 2014 21:06
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Omelette du Fromage posted:Like 99% of all analogies ever made, this is terrible. A wife beater can be arrested by police and stopped. There are no world police, regardless of what you think about the US military. Actually, the US military + NATO could easily roll in and mop up the Totally Not Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine and politely wait far enough from the Russian border to not cause an incident. That's a thing that can be done. It's not even in question, as the primary reason the conflict is still ongoing is a lack of men and materiel for the Ukraine armies.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:08
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Nintendo Kid posted:Actually, the US military + NATO could easily roll in and mop up the Totally Not Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine and politely wait far enough from the Russian border to not cause an incident. That's a thing that can be done. You don't even have to have NATO, the II Marine Expeditionary Force could be dropped in to the eastern Ukraine and resolve the issue tout de suite given the number of actual combatants involved and the territory covered, but this is getting into Clancychat.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:25
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Nintendo Kid posted:Actually, the US military + NATO could easily roll in and mop up the Totally Not Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine and politely wait far enough from the Russian border to not cause an incident. That's a thing that can be done. The US doesn't have a great record fighting foreign backed insurgencies, to put it mildly. I doubt the Ukrainian separatists can be bought off. I'm a bit skeptical of your claim they could roll in and put it down no sweat, especially if they're keeping a safe distance from the border.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:29
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Omelette du Fromage posted:The US doesn't have a great record fighting foreign backed insurgencies, to put it mildly. I doubt the Ukrainian separatists can be bought off. The US has the ability to beat them but the issue would be the second they leave, the situation will go back to where it was. Basically, the US would have to sit around on the Russian border for years trying to deal with insurgents without starting World War 3. Also, it is quite likely Russia and/or insurgent would take ever opportunity to pick off US soldiers. The US actually trying to engage with them across the Russian border would be uh...very bad. It is pretty difficult to beat an insurgency supplied by a major power across their own border. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 21:33
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Omelette du Fromage posted:The US doesn't have a great record fighting foreign backed insurgencies, to put it mildly. I doubt the Ukrainian separatists can be bought off. This isn't a native insurgency. It's a foreign military that can barely hold its own against government forces most of the time. Russia probably won't bother resupplying them if anyone besides Ukraine enters the situation, neatly crippling the forces at hand. Like there's a reason that the "rebels" in cities not in reach of Russian border supply lines were eliminated fairly quickly once the Ukraine military mobilized.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:36
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Ardennes posted:Also, it is quite likely Russia and/or insurgent would take ever opportunity to pick off US soldiers. The US actually trying to engage with them would be uh very bad. It is pretty difficult to beat an insurgency supplied by a major power across their own border. I'd imagine the inevitable solution would be a demilitarized zone like in North Korea.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:38
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Ardennes posted:The US has the ability to beat them but the issue would be the second they leave, it will go back to where it was. No because the local government (Kiev) would be trying to help (in a way that would actually be helpful!), but it's still a pipedream because Moscow would up the ante the moment someone in Washington mentioned the possibility of a western intervention.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:45
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Nintendo Kid posted:This isn't a native insurgency. It's a foreign military that can barely hold its own against government forces most of the time. When the rebels were taken over by the Russian army directly they routed the Ukrainians handily, hence Yatsenyuk's despondency over the military situation in the video I posted a while back. Regardless, direct deployment of NATO troops into this conflict is a really dumb idea, not just because of some outside possibility of World War 3 but because it will inevitably involve NATO troops killing Russian citizens (remember the passports they were handing out?) and a slew of other poo poo that will compromise NATO's position and lead to Russia upping the stakes dramatically as a tit-for-tat. If it were to happen right now it would be doubly terrible since Putin can, with some justification, point to the political settlement he'd already worked out with Poroshenko and which NATO would have unaccountably trashed.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:50
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Young Freud posted:I'd imagine the inevitable solution would be a demilitarized zone like in North Korea. The DMZ only works because both sides respect it, in this case, the DMZ would be insurgent territory by default. quote:No because the local government (Kiev) would be trying to help (in a way that would actually be helpful!), but it's still a pipedream because Moscow would up the ante the moment someone in Washington mentioned the possibility of a western intervention. I don't see the situation easily stabilizing at that point especially if the US got in the mix and it got possibly even uglier. Also, I am also not certain Ukraine even with Western weaponry would be able to shut down Russia on its own. So the US would likely have to stick around and be dragged in a uglier tit for tat war border war with Russia (until the public got completely fed up). Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 21:50
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Also I don't think that US politics would allow for an intervention in Ukraine even if anyone seriously waved to go down that road.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:58
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Omelette du Fromage posted:I doubt the Ukrainian separatists can be bought off. Well, theoretically, since the terrorists are being used directly by Putin, you could just pay Putin enough to not want Ukraine anymore. Remember, he's more of a gangster or mafioso than an actual political leader, and is doing all of this for the explicit purpose of personal gain: If he gets a better bargain, he'll probably take it. Of course even at that point he'd probably just keep on having Ukrainians slaughtered horribly anyway, because he's not exactly a person you can expect to honor any kind of deal.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:59
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ThirdPartyView posted:Why is Blofeld wearing army fatigues? Well, if memory serves, in the Bond books, Blofeld is described as sometimes wearing military uniforms... 
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Sep 20, 2014 22:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKqfeYcvpzk
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Sep 21, 2014 04:17
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Zohar posted:When the rebels were taken over by the Russian army directly they routed the Ukrainians handily, hence Yatsenyuk's despondency over the military situation in the video I posted a while back. Regardless, direct deployment of NATO troops into this conflict is a really dumb idea, not just because of some outside possibility of World War 3 but because it will inevitably involve NATO troops killing Russian citizens (remember the passports they were handing out?) and a slew of other poo poo that will compromise NATO's position and lead to Russia upping the stakes dramatically as a tit-for-tat. If it were to happen right now it would be doubly terrible since Putin can, with some justification, point to the political settlement he'd already worked out with Poroshenko and which NATO would have unaccountably trashed. If Russia was giving passports everywhere, then it wouldn't be a problem for NATO to find enough men with one and send them to Ukraine. Russians fighting Russians 
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Sep 21, 2014 09:21
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Nintendo Kid posted:Actually, the US military + NATO could easily roll in and mop up the Totally Not Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine and politely wait far enough from the Russian border to not cause an incident. That's a thing that can be done. I know this thread hates any kind of pro-russian opinion, but holy poo poo don't let it turn into an echo chamber.
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Sep 21, 2014 09:50
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Gitler goes in.
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Sep 21, 2014 10:35
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Ardennes posted:One big reason appeasement happened was that Britain and France were obviously in no condition to fight in the late 1930s and a French assault into Germany was very likely to fail. To be honest, I think the West today gives even less of a poo poo about Ukraine than they do Czechoslovakia. You keep saying this, but it isn't true. In 1936 France would easily have crushed Germany because German remilitarisation was nowhere near complete. They had ample casus belli to do so faced with the remilitarisation of the Ruhr industrial region. Just reasserting French soveriegnty and commitment to her treaties in this way would have lifted the scales from the eyes of the German people, toppled Hitler and saved the world a lot of trouble. The comparison with Czechoslovakia is apt. Anyone in the German military knew it would have been a monumentally difficult task to overcome the Czech border defences while holding off France in the West. It was the political coup scored by Hitler with the Munich agreement that allowed German aggression to proliferate, in much the same way that any federalism agreement in Ukraine will inevitably do with Russia. My bet is that very few people in the Russian military have much confidence in what Putin is doing. They are ruled by fear, not love. It is only by continuing to score victories that Putin can keep his momentum. He has already been checked twice, once by shooting down the wrong plane and thus losing a valuable casus belli. And once by having his proxies nearly defeated in Donbas and Luhansk. This has swiftly unravelled his cover story and forced him to play his hand by overtly invading. In this political dimension, nuclear weapons have comparatively little utility. No-one is going to nuke anyone over Ukraine. But the political concessions won by Putin so far will have very serious consequences for Ukraine and will further compound the crisis. The way to defeat Putin in Ukraine is through reasurring the Ukrainian political leaders in their prosecution of the conventional war. In this sense I agree with the realists. Putin needs to show proper respect to the very real conventional military and economic superiority of Europe and NATO. Flaky fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Sep 21, 2014 |
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Sep 21, 2014 11:32
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