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ToastyPotato posted:Yeah that is a joke and doesn't count. The whole point of a shared universe is that they share space, not that some random character from another show popped up in one episode one time or that there was a background reference to a random thing in another show. There's plenty of legitimate shared universes, like Buffy Angel, Miller Boyett Shows, Pettycoat Junction and Green Acres, Archie Bunker the Jeffersons and Maude, the entire spectrum of Power Rangers series, ABC Soap Operas, etc. Only the Tommy Westphal idea of them all being shared is dumb.
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Sep 20, 2014 11:33
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greatn posted:There's plenty of legitimate shared universes, like Buffy Angel, Miller Boyett Shows, Pettycoat Junction and Green Acres, Archie Bunker the Jeffersons and Maude, the entire spectrum of Power Rangers series, ABC Soap Operas, etc. Only the Tommy Westphal idea of them all being shared is dumb. I think it's fair to say the Marvel plan is the first shared universe to be "important" and scrutinized as a blockbuster plan. The sitcoms you mentioned were really only winks, you didn't have to watch Green Acres to get Pettycoat Junction, and there was no expectation that one day there would be a summer movie where Urkel, Balki, Uncle Jesse, and Mork would team up to face the ultimate evil. Buffy and Angel crossed over, but it was a unique situation on a non major network and Joss Whedon led both shows, and now not coincidentally he is making the Avengers movies. Like it or not, the Marvel movie universe is unique.
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Sep 20, 2014 14:34
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ToastyPotato posted:Not being able to say the word HYRDA doesn't excuse the bad writing, dialog, and direction of the show, especially in the first half. They had limitations imposed by Disney and Marvel Studios, but what they delivered was subpar and had very little to do with that. It was just a substandard show. There are plenty of shows not tied to the Marvel universe that manage to tell decent, interesting stories. Also, Deathlok's design being god awful had nothing to do with anything outside of poor design choices being made. It's not that they weren't able to say the word HYDRA*. It's broader things that resulted from Studios proper's desire to protect the sanctity of then-upcoming films, like not being able to portray SHIELD in any sort of negative light, not being able to hint at any moles or other bad apples within SHIELD on what was at least partially an espionage show, and limiting the use of superpowered characters on a show whose entire point was being set in a superhero universe. None of this is speculation on my part; it's all been said a number of times in interviews with the showrunners. That's not getting into ABC wanting to make the show a four-quadrant hit that could appeal to moms and other people who would never consider watching a Marvel Studios film (as though Avengers wasn't a broad enough hit already), which I suspect is in large part responsible for a lot of the tonal problems that were most pronounced in the first half of S1 (an awkward mishmash of the espionage and investigative procedural genres; an overreliance on episodic plotting; overly archetypal characters; Family-Friendly Marvel Procedural Action/Adventure Hour episodes punctuated with moments of surprisingly graphic violence). To be clear, I saw the same episodes you did, and I'm not saying that the writers, showrunners, and directors did the best job they possibly could have done under those creative constraints. They definitely didn't. But I'd put the bulk of the blame elsewhere; S1 was creatively kneecapped before they even started shooting the pilot. *which isn't literally true, it was mentioned at least twice on the show before TWS 
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Sep 20, 2014 17:16
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Buddington posted:I think it's fair to say the Marvel plan is the first shared universe to be "important" and scrutinized as a blockbuster plan. The sitcoms you mentioned were really only winks, you didn't have to watch Green Acres to get Pettycoat Junction, and there was no expectation that one day there would be a summer movie where Urkel, Balki, Uncle Jesse, and Mork would team up to face the ultimate evil. Buffy and Angel crossed over, but it was a unique situation on a non major network and Joss Whedon led both shows, and now not coincidentally he is making the Avengers movies. Like it or not, the Marvel movie universe is unique. If we're being honest here, the Universal monster movies came up with it first.
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Sep 20, 2014 17:29
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Buddington posted:I think it's fair to say the Marvel plan is the first shared universe to be "important" and scrutinized as a blockbuster plan. The sitcoms you mentioned were really only winks, you didn't have to watch Green Acres to get Pettycoat Junction, and there was no expectation that one day there would be a summer movie where Urkel, Balki, Uncle Jesse, and Mork would team up to face the ultimate evil. Buffy and Angel crossed over, but it was a unique situation on a non major network and Joss Whedon led both shows, and now not coincidentally he is making the Avengers movies. Like it or not, the Marvel movie universe is unique. Basically this. Most other cases are just cameos and spin offs. I am not familiar enough with Buffy/Angel to speak to that, but my understanding wasn't that both shows were directly effecting each other. AoS is honestly the first show I can think of where events outside of the show are directly effecting the story being told within the show. Barry Convex posted:It's not that they weren't able to say the word HYDRA*. It's broader things that resulted from Studios proper's desire to protect the sanctity of then-upcoming films, like not being able to portray SHIELD in any sort of negative light, not being able to hint at any moles or other bad apples within SHIELD on what was at least partially an espionage show, and limiting the use of superpowered characters on a show whose entire point was being set in a superhero universe. None of this is speculation on my part; it's all been said a number of times in interviews with the showrunners. I don't know how you can believe the bold part and then not say that bears the bulk of the blame. This show, within its first half of season 1, had two "now say it again in English" lines and a "he's behind me, isn't he?" line. I think that speaks volumes about the problems and you honestly did pretty much nail them on the head. I wouldn't say that the restrictions played no role, but I think the show could have been significantly better had it had a better team behind it, or at least of the people behind it didn't seemingly give up when faced with those challenges.
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Sep 20, 2014 18:19
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ToastyPotato posted:Basically this. Most other cases are just cameos and spin offs. I am not familiar enough with Buffy/Angel to speak to that, but my understanding wasn't that both shows were directly effecting each other. AoS is honestly the first show I can think of where events outside of the show are directly effecting the story being told within the show. Well, there's a lot of Hollywood politics involved in making a TV series, all the more so when it involves this degree of synergy and synchronization between multiple divisions of Disney. Keep in mind that (Jed) Whedon and Tancharoen had never served as showrunners before SHIELD S1, which undoubtedly impaired their ability to stand up to the various other executive influences on the show. Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 18:41
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Yeah he's right the Universal Monster movies really are the progenitor of this. You have two Dracula movies, four Frankenstein movies, two Wolfman movies, then suddenly you have Frankenstein vs the Wolf man, then House of Frank and House of Dracs, then they all meet Abbot and Costello with cameos from the in universe invisible man and those characters go on to meet the Mummy as well... Or maybe they already had. Wish Hammer had followed in this tradition.
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Sep 20, 2014 20:48
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Oh and David E Kelley's Legal Dramas Boston Public Boston Legal The Practice and Ally McBeal all took place in the same universe and he made sure to have characters cross between them all the time, and even had a couple fairly involved crossovers across networks. After one show was cancelled, its main characters would sometimes show up on his other shows just so you know how they're doing.
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Sep 20, 2014 20:54
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HorseRenoir posted:If we're being honest here, the Universal monster movies came up with it first. I'd love to see an Abbot & Costello Meet The Avengers.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:15
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greatn posted:Oh and David E Kelley's Legal Dramas Boston Public Boston Legal The Practice and Ally McBeal all took place in the same universe and he made sure to have characters cross between them all the time, and even had a couple fairly involved crossovers across networks. After one show was cancelled, its main characters would sometimes show up on his other shows just so you know how they're doing. They important part of my asking about whether other shows did this was the claim that it has been overdone enough to be tiresome and that it has very clear negative effects that can be pointed to across the numerous times it has been attempted. All that has been proven is that this has almost never been done in the way that AoS is doing it, and that a huge chunk of criticism given to AoS isn't even the direct fault of it being in a shared universe. Therefore, the notion that the DC shows sharing a universe would automatically be bad is a silly one born out of nothing but a negative reaction to the one, modern, shared universe that exists in films/TV that is actually quite successful and popular.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:22
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Sure. I think sharing a universe with DC movies would be bad though because DC movies are bad.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:35
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greatn posted:Sure. I think sharing a universe with DC movies would be bad though because DC movies are bad. Yeah, the Flash pilot isn't perfect, but it's far, far closer to what I want to see from a shared live-action DCU than Man of Steel was (or than anything we've seen of BvS looks to be). Supergirl probably isn't set in the Arrowverse, but Berlanti's involvement at least leaves me hopeful it'll get the tone right.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:39
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greatn posted:Sure. I think sharing a universe with DC movies would be bad though because DC movies are bad. Oh I agree, I wouldn't want the shows and movies to mix at this point if only because I do not like the direction the movies are headed but I wouldn't hate if they tried either. But I was more talking about how Teen Titans and now Supergirl will be on their own apparently. Some people were saying that this would some how automatically make them better, which I don't really get. Smallville wasn't in a shared universe and it didn't benefit from that at all. Arrow's first two seasons weren't part of a shared universe either, and plenty of people have bad things to say about both. So I am just really confused as to where this idea that stand alone shows are definitely better, when there seems to be no real evidence for this claim.
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Sep 20, 2014 21:42
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ToastyPotato posted:Oh I agree, I wouldn't want the shows and movies to mix at this point if only because I do not like the direction the movies are headed but I wouldn't hate if they tried either. But I was more talking about how Teen Titans and now Supergirl will be on their own apparently. Some people were saying that this would some how automatically make them better, which I don't really get. Smallville wasn't in a shared universe and it didn't benefit from that at all. Arrow's first two seasons weren't part of a shared universe either, and plenty of people have bad things to say about both. So I am just really confused as to where this idea that stand alone shows are definitely better, when there seems to be no real evidence for this claim. Right, SHIELD S1's MCU problem (by no means its only problem, as per my post above) wasn't that it was set in a preexisting shared universe; it was that it was set in that universe while being deeply, inextricably tied to the canon of existing and upcoming films, which meant that Marvel Studios had far too much veto power over potential story ideas. If series/films exist in a shared universe but occupy their own distinct corner of it (Arrow and Flash, or the MCU films and the Defenders series), with only the occasional crossover, that shouldn't be a problem. Barry Convex fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 22:03
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Barry Convex posted:Yeah, the Flash pilot isn't perfect, but it's far, far closer to what I want to see from a shared live-action DCU than Man of Steel was (or than anything we've seen of BvS looks to be). How awesome would it be though, if they did a finale where Ollie beats the bad guy, but oh no! He planted a bomb in a plane's engine, and now it'll crash on the city, killing thousands, and then... "Look! Up in the sky!"
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Sep 20, 2014 23:50
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Gaz-L posted:How awesome would it be though, if they did a finale where Ollie beats the bad guy, but oh no! He planted a bomb in a plane's engine, and now it'll crash on the city, killing thousands, and then... Then a giant web appears and catches the plane. The red and blue figure swings and lands next to Arrow. "Everybody gets one"
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Sep 20, 2014 23:54
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Man, is there anything stopping Batman/Superman villains from showing up? Ollie vs Penguin who drops references to be forced outta gotham, and being on edge he was followed to Starling? Felicity battling the Riddler in wits?
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Sep 21, 2014 00:38
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bunnyofdoom posted:Man, is there anything stopping Batman/Superman villains from showing up? Ollie vs Penguin who drops references to be forced outta gotham, and being on edge he was followed to Starling? Felicity battling the Riddler in wits? Well Ra's Al Ghul is the main villain this season and if anyone could be considered Dick Grayson's arch villain it's Deathstroke, so there's definitely some cross over of characters. IF they use anyone though I'm sure it will be people who won't be showing up in Gotham, most of Batman's C-list is probabaly up for grabs.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:41
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Death stroke was pretty much Ollie's archnrmesis since Infinite Crisis, at least up til new 52 which I know nothing about.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:44
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They did have the Royal Flush Gang and Firefly show up in Season 1.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:46
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Dacap posted:Well Ra's Al Ghul is the main villain this season and if anyone could be considered Dick Grayson's arch villain it's Deathstroke, so there's definitely some cross over of characters. IF they use anyone though I'm sure it will be people who won't be showing up in Gotham, most of Batman's C-list is probabaly up for grabs. With Teen Titans being its own thing and Dick being the leader, my fear is that the well for Arrow villains will dry up, assuming Warner sticks to its previous policies. That's why I kind of wanted them to be in the same universe, because then it wouldn't matter and there would not be much of a reason villains couldn't bounce back and forth if they were running low on usable characters. The alternative, as I mentioned before, is having multiple versions of the same characters, which we simply do not know if WB will allow yet, since nothing has actually happened and no one has been cast, etc.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:48
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ToastyPotato posted:With Teen Titans being its own thing and Dick being the leader, my fear is that the well for Arrow villains will dry up, assuming Warner sticks to its previous policies. That's why I kind of wanted them to be in the same universe, because then it wouldn't matter and there would not be much of a reason villains couldn't bounce back and forth if they were running low on usable characters. The alternative, as I mentioned before, is having multiple versions of the same characters, which we simply do not know if WB will allow yet, since nothing has actually happened and no one has been cast, etc.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:56
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Arrow seems to have nabbed the Suicide Squad, so there's actually a decent sized pool of villains to pull from. You get Punch and Jewelee in there, but still. Plus more espionage stuff like Checkmate could pop up. Flash has got good rogues; it's kind of his thing. And they've already set up a season long mystery that is obviously Zoom. Gotham is hard to read because it seems like they have a core cast of villains-to-be, so are they doing crimes yet? Will there be other DC guest stars who show up but don't get any character development? Titans... Well they could try Judas Contract without Slade, I guess.
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Sep 21, 2014 04:43
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Did anyone else catch the clip they showed during NFL games yesterday? I wasn't too interested in the show before and this didn't help. I'm not going to judge it on the pilot, but if they keep doing heavy handed nods and winks I'm not sticking around long. If you didn't see it, Penguin is beating a guy with a bat, when another gang member says "Take it easy, PENGUIN" and he snaps back with a "you know I hate that name!" bit before Gordon shows up.
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Sep 22, 2014 16:19
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Yeah some early reviews mentioned that the first couple of episodes are pretty heavy-handed with the intros to characters since they need to make sure people who don't actually know anything about Batman realize that the show's about Gordon and young versions of all the famous villains. Expect a whole lot of "That woman is like a cat!" type stuff early on, but hopefully the show will grow into something interesting. Not much longer to wait now so we'll see soon I guess.
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Sep 22, 2014 17:21
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I didn't realized Gotham started tonight, and Agents if Shield tomorrow? I'll probably watch Flash as well, but I think Arrow is still on at the same time as AoS.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:03
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twistedmentat posted:I didn't realized Gotham started tonight, and Agents if Shield tomorrow? I'll probably watch Flash as well, but I think Arrow is still on at the same time as AoS. Arrow and SHIELD were never on at the same time. Arrow is 8pm Wednesdays, SHIELD was and is Tuesdays but now moved to 9 instead of 8. Flash is Tuesdays at 8.
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Sep 22, 2014 20:08
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have they said how much Flash and Arrow will tie in together? I haven't gotten around to watching Arrow at all but I'd like to watch Flash
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Sep 22, 2014 21:09
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The pilot has Ollie show up to say 'sup to Barry and they will have a crossover episode or two per season. You can just watch Flash without watching Arrow, I guess it'd help to know that Ollie is Barry's inspiration to be a hero and that he and Felicity in Arrow kind of possibly had a thing but it's not vital.
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Sep 22, 2014 21:13
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Opopanax posted:have they said how much Flash and Arrow will tie in together? I haven't gotten around to watching Arrow at all but I'd like to watch Flash Flash first appeared in season 2 of Arrow. The first flash episode will have an appearance by Ollie, and there is a crossover later this season.
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Sep 22, 2014 21:14
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I was worried that Ra's would be a one-season villain until I remembered that the other two big villains are still around. e: And since there's a new Count Vertigo, I doubt that they'll run out of villains, just reintroduce new versions. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Sep 22, 2014 |
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Sep 22, 2014 22:56
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Aphrodite posted:Arrow and SHIELD were never on at the same time. Arrow is 8pm Wednesdays, SHIELD was and is Tuesdays but now moved to 9 instead of 8. I could have sworn they were on at the same time. But then that doesn't make sense because they are both shown on CTV in Canada. I don't have high hopes for Gotham, but I'm going to give it a chance. I mean, enjoyed AoS even at the start, even though it wasn't that good. Probably helped that Skye and Simmons are pretty cute and I can't get enough Coulson.
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Sep 23, 2014 00:58
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OK... Gotham doesn't air here until October apparently, but I just read the AV Club write-up for the pilot... did they seriously give up the chance to do a version of Half A Life in favour of a retarded love triangle between Gordon, Montoya and Barbara Sr.?
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Sep 23, 2014 03:02
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Not sure if this is the right place for it, but the wife and I just finished our marathon of JL/JLU, and are looking for our next animated superhero fix. What are some other good shows, DCAU or otherwise?
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Sep 23, 2014 03:16
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Klungar posted:Not sure if this is the right place for it, but the wife and I just finished our marathon of JL/JLU, and are looking for our next animated superhero fix. What are some other good shows, DCAU or otherwise? Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Spectacular Spider-Man.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:17
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Klungar posted:Not sure if this is the right place for it, but the wife and I just finished our marathon of JL/JLU, and are looking for our next animated superhero fix. What are some other good shows, DCAU or otherwise? Batman Animated Series: Because it's where the DCAU started, and is a drat fine noir series with spectacular episodes Batman: Beyond: Really good Batman Cyberpunk I felt Batman: Brave and Bold: It is the silver age in tv form, and it is glorious.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:20
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Klungar posted:Not sure if this is the right place for it, but the wife and I just finished our marathon of JL/JLU, and are looking for our next animated superhero fix. What are some other good shows, DCAU or otherwise? Also Green Lantern TAS if you can get over the CGI style
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Sep 23, 2014 03:22
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Hoe does the 90s X-Men cartoon hold up?
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Sep 23, 2014 03:27
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Hoe does the 90s X-Men cartoon hold up? How much tolerance do you have for Claremontian self-narration and 90's Jim Lee character designs?
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Sep 23, 2014 03:40
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Hoe does the 90s X-Men cartoon hold up? Compared to Batman? Not at all. It's probably the best of the nineties Marvel cartoons, but that's damning with faint praise.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:43
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