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Gort posted:
Grogs are way ahead of you there.
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Sep 20, 2014 23:42
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Gort posted:How does being able to move and make multiple attacks at any point in that move neuter the fighter's ability to engage in melee? Surely it enhances it compared to 3e, where if you moved you got one paltry attack instead of your full number. Because a lot of creatures get multiattack and can do the same thing back, I guess.
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Sep 20, 2014 23:51
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dichloroisocyanuric posted:Because a lot of creatures get multiattack and can do the same thing back, I guess. From a lot of the monsters we've seen, multi-attacking is all a large majority of them even do.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:37
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Because enemies can just run away all willy nilly. In fact, enemies can conga line up and away from you, all hitting you with ease. Or they can conga line any of your buddies! Fighters have literally never been less sticky. You move to engage them, they just shrug and leave and stab someone else.
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Sep 21, 2014 00:42
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ProfessorCirno posted:Because enemies can just run away all willy nilly. In fact, enemies can conga line up and away from you, all hitting you with ease. Or they can conga line any of your buddies! So you take your opportunity attack (can houserule you get one per enemy) on them as they leave if they outnumber you, otherwise move with them?
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Sep 21, 2014 01:33
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ProfessorCirno posted:Because enemies can just run away all willy nilly. In fact, enemies can conga line up and away from you, all hitting you with ease. Or they can conga line any of your buddies! The sentinel feat mitigates this somewhat. Hitting an enemy with an opportunity attack stops them. Combine with a polearm (and maybe polearm master to stop anyone entering your reach as well as leaving it), and you can control an area 25 feet wide against one enemy per round. Another fun thing to do for a number of classes who want to be sticky is to look closely into grappling. A lot of creatures have high strength mods to contest against, yes, but there's a catch. Entering a grapple also allows you to add your athletics proficiency to the contest. Multiclass rogue or bard for a few levels to get expertise to double the athletics bonus, and it ends up scaling surprisingly well into late game.
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Sep 21, 2014 01:35
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All that planning and now the fighter can lock down one enemy per turn, and keep them in place if they are nor larger than two size categories over the fighter. Not nearly as sticky as any good defender should be. Infact just as sticky as any other class that could take sentinel and has reach. Can you be a blade pact Warlock and take sentinel?
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Sep 21, 2014 01:41
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NGDBSS posted:Forgive me if I'm wrong since I've never actually seen the rules for editions earlier than 3.x, but didn't 2E have something like this? Or am I just grasping at threads based on secondhand knowledge? (I know that not being able to move and full-attack at once is distinctly a 3.x-ism, at least.)
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Sep 21, 2014 02:27
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ascendance posted:I always thought it was assumed that in previous editions, even when you have extra attacks, you could move and attack, or attack then move. While people might have ruled it this way for their home games, I'm pretty sure this is the first game I've seen where you could split your movement in between all your attacks. 3.5 has some feats that let you do that, I know.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:29
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ProfessorCirno posted:"Completely neuters a fighter's ability to engage in melee" may be new, but it's far from positive.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:29
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djw175 posted:3.5 has some feats that let you do that, I know.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:31
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ProfessorCirno posted:Because enemies can just run away all willy nilly. In fact, enemies can conga line up and away from you, all hitting you with ease. Or they can conga line any of your buddies!
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Sep 21, 2014 02:31
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ascendance posted:What? As a fighter I can run up to a guy, hit him with attack, kill him, and move on to the next guy. How does letting the fighter move in between all of his extra attacks neuter his ability to engage in melee? The fighter's job in the traditional party is supposedly to "protect the weaker party members." For this role to have teeth, you need a way to stop opponents, even if its just "they can take 2e/3.5 style attacks of opportunity." Engaging in melee means that you're somehow shutting down a threat to the other party members. Unfortunately, without two universal feats that may as well just be on the cleric to save time and character slots, everyone else in the game world is now able to wave dash past the fighter, attack any target they like, then wave dash back to safety, so the question is now "why is the fighter here again?"
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Sep 21, 2014 02:39
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ascendance posted:Yeah, except that you always had to take a full attack action to get extra attacks, so you could never move and take multiple attacks. I think there might have been some specialised monster feats that let you get away with extra attacks on the move.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:41
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Nihilarian posted:Spring Attack, Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz got you up to 3 attacks on the move. No one took them, though. Except maybe swiftblades, who I think got them for free. Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, AND BAB 18+!  Or you could just get Pounce somehow. Y'know if you wanted to.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:44
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ascendance posted:What? As a fighter I can run up to a guy, hit him with attack, kill him, and move on to the next guy. How does letting the fighter move in between all of his extra attacks neuter his ability to engage in melee? It's not the Fighter's ability to move that neuters them, it's everybody else's ability to do so that neuters them. Well, "neuters" might be too strong a word, but with only one reaction per round it definitely does mean that hit-and-run tactics are frightfully effective. It also means that blocking off a corridor just by yourself is unlikely, unless it's very narrow. This reduces their traditional role as front-line warrior.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:45
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EscortMission posted:The fighter's job in the traditional party is supposedly to "protect the weaker party members." For this role to have teeth, you need a way to stop opponents, even if its just "they can take 2e/3.5 style attacks of opportunity." Engaging in melee means that you're somehow shutting down a threat to the other party members. Why wouldn't the fighter just physically body block them, because it isn't like one guy gets to move first and only then the fighter gets to move
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Sep 21, 2014 02:46
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mastershakeman posted:Why wouldn't the fighter just physically body block them, because it isn't like one guy gets to move first and only then the fighter gets to move This works fine in a 5 foot corridor, but even giving an opponent 5 more feet to maneuver in lets them conga their way in and conga their way back out with impunity.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:49
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EscortMission posted:Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, AND BAB 18+!
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Sep 21, 2014 02:51
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ascendance posted:What? As a fighter I can run up to a guy, hit him with attack, kill him, and move on to the next guy. How does letting the fighter move in between all of his extra attacks neuter his ability to engage in melee? As level increses, the ability for a fighter to even hope to one-hit kill goes down pretty quickly. Without an ability to force enemies to specifically target a fighter or forcefully end their movement like in 4e, a Fighter can quickly end up in situations where their ability to remain tanky relies on the DM willingly having every enemy target the fighter regardless of how "smart" that tactic might actually be
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Sep 21, 2014 02:52
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Gort posted:Well, that's less lethal than 4e's dying rules where everyone automatically criticals you when they attack you in melee while downed. In 5E you automatically crit on an unconscious/paralyzed person if you are within 5 feet of them, and a crit against an unconscious person gives them 2 failed saves to their death pool.
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Sep 21, 2014 02:57
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The point is there is no front line anymore. Hit and run isn't just better, it's the given norm. Monsters can just completely ignore your fighter. mastershakeman posted:Why wouldn't the fighter just physically body block them, because it isn't like one guy gets to move first and only then the fighter gets to move Unless the fighter literally takes up the entire space between the baddies and his friends, they can just run past him and ignore him completely. Alternately, each one runs up, hits him, and then retreats, making the Conga Line Attack. One of the great things about 5e is that BOUNDED ACCURACY also overwhelmingly punishes fighters! Because while wizards gain more and more ways to completely ignore fights or laugh at the saves that don't scale or just bypass attacks, fighters literally always have to worry about every enemy and never reach a point where they tower over the puny orcs and/or kobolds. 5e amazes me in how it's so perfectly set up to scream "gently caress YOU gently caress YOU gently caress YOU" at martial characters!
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Sep 21, 2014 03:00
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Grimpond posted:As level increses, the ability for a fighter to even hope to one-hit kill goes down pretty quickly. Without an ability to force enemies to specifically target a fighter or forcefully end their movement like in 4e, a Fighter can quickly end up in situations where their ability to remain tanky relies on the DM willingly having every enemy target the fighter regardless of how "smart" that tactic might actually be But it does interesting things to caster balance. Because now, full casters have to spend a bunch of resources protecting themselves, including pick the melee build for your class. So, if you're dungeon crawling, you basically want two to three melee characters to hold the front line. If you have a fighter and a rogue, a melee rogue will always end up sticking to the fighter like glue. In a wilderness setting, it becomes even more important for characters to use ranged attacks to soften up the enemy before the melee clash of arms. EDIT: I also think it's a deliberate design choice to make saves really, really terrible. Given that casters get fewer slots, I guess the idea is to make each slot have greater impact on the battlefield. Unfortunately, this doesn't account for the fact that monsters get to blow all their spells in one fight, and don't have to conserve them. The sensible solution to the issue would have been to make PCs have better saves than monsters, which they might eventually end up having when magic items are accounted for. ascendance fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Sep 21, 2014 |
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Sep 21, 2014 03:04
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EscortMission posted:Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, AND BAB 18+! First level dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion. You lose Barbarian Rages, and Trapfinding, and get Pounce as an SU, instead.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:16
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ascendance posted:This is an intentional change to appeal to pre-4e grogs who think that "tanking" is something straight out of MMOs (which it is... due to to primitive AI implementation). True fact: The first time I ever saw the term 'tank' to mean 'Character who absorbs all the damage' was in the AD&D 2e Complete Fighter's Handbook, (c) 1989 (ironically, in the description of the Swashbuckler kit.)
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Sep 21, 2014 03:18
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Bassetking posted:First level dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion. You lose Barbarian Rages, and Trapfinding, and get Pounce as an SU, instead. That doesn't have the right evocative tummyfeel I'm afraid. The door is that way, thank you for your help. Of course if Complete Champion is legal you could be considering Anime Weeaboo Fightan classes, so maybe you don't need those three attacks after all 
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Sep 21, 2014 03:27
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Bassetking posted:First level dip into Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion. You lose Barbarian Rages, and Trapfinding, and get Pounce as an SU, instead. Nah dude, Spirit Lion Totem doesn't give up Rage, it gets rid of irrelevant poo poo and fast movement.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:29
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4E "tanking" isn't even MMO tanking. Its forcing a decision of "hit me or suffer." How do so many grogs miss the point of 4E's mechanics.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:33
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The Bee posted:4E "tanking" isn't even MMO tanking. Its forcing a decision of "hit me or suffer." How do so many grogs miss the point of 4E's mechanics. By not reading them, duh. Same reason they hate 4e's healing surges: they never read the rules so they think that surges work the exact opposite of how they actually work.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:43
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gtrmp posted:By not reading them, duh. Same reason they hate 4e's healing surges: they never read the rules so they think that surges work the exact opposite of how they actually work. How do they think they work?
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Sep 21, 2014 03:45
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The Bee posted:4E "tanking" isn't even MMO tanking. Its forcing a decision of "hit me or suffer." How do so many grogs miss the point of 4E's mechanics. They don't understand what 4e or MMO tanking is, in my experience. I've had people literally tell me that their paladin is exactly the same as an MMO tank because they can do lots of damage if the monster doesn't attack them.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:52
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djw175 posted:How do they think they work? Some detractors of 4e think healing surges completely replace clerics/wands of CLW and in fact keep you figuratively immortal during fights (enough to reduce all tension) as a tool to coddle the entitled selfish non-roleplaying WoW gamer babby crowd.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:52
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The Bee posted:4E "tanking" isn't even MMO tanking. Its forcing a decision of "hit me or suffer." How do so many grogs miss the point of 4E's mechanics. Look I play WoW and I like 4e, therefore it is for WoW MMO babbies like me.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:54
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djw175 posted:How do they think they work? The implication is that they think Healing Surges are a mechanic to increase HP recovery available to characters. Healing Surges are in fact a mechanic to restrict HP recovery available to characters.
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Sep 21, 2014 03:56
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If anything its even more limited, considering without healing powers, items, or dwarfiness you can't Healing Surge unless you spend a huge important action that wastes most of your turn. And you only get one of those per encounter. But no Healing Surges are infinite wells of free HP that turn the Fighter into Superman instead of Clive the Janitor.
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Sep 21, 2014 04:11
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djw175 posted:How do they think they work? Like 90% of the people who complain the loudest about healing surges seem to somehow be under the impression that you can spend them at-will (not just via Second Wind/powers/items/resting/etc, but whenever you like) in addition to any healing you might get from spells/potions/etc. To be fair, the rest of the complainers are people who've actually played the game or at least read the rules and would rather not have the rules implicitly encouraging the party to rest after every fight, which is a complaint that's definitely true of 4e (and of every other edition, albeit by varying degrees). Okay, and there are also the incomprehensible verisimilitude-obsessed grognards who are fine with hit points and so on as-is but who draw the line at healing surges, but those guys don't count.
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Sep 21, 2014 04:11
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ascendance posted:This is an intentional change to appeal to pre-4e grogs who think that "tanking" is something straight out of MMOs (which it is... due to to primitive AI implementation). My 76 year old dad instantly grasped the concept of MMO tanking just from hearing "that guy's the tank". Turns out that when he played hex-and-counter wargames in the '60s and '70s, pretty much any hard-to-kill dangerous unit often got referred to as "a tank", and the act of using something like that to defend other units (or to threaten units who attacked your other units) was sometimes called, get this, tanking. See also "turtle", "<unit> rush>" and "scrub".
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Sep 21, 2014 04:15
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Ironically its grog favorite, 3.5 edition that makes clerics obsolete as healers. Heals take a full action, and don't heal for more then an equivalent level character can damage. I mean for ever level of heal x wounds there's an equivalent cause x wounds spell that literally does the sames damage as the other heals. So people found out mathematically your almost always better off disabling or trying to kill a monster to help keep people alive then to ever waste a turn on a healing spell. And outside of combat health potions are so cheap and easily available that above like level 3 you essentially can carry more then you would ever reasonably need for any given adventure. Not that 3ed edition cleric wasn't one of the most powerful classes in a game full of brokenly powerful classes, it just wasn't due to their healing. Using a healing spell as a cleric was a bit like using a spell that dealt HP damage as a wizard.
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Sep 21, 2014 04:18
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I'm actually kind of curious now what the earliest documented use of 'tanking' we can find is.
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Sep 21, 2014 04:42
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Tendales posted:I'm actually kind of curious now what the earliest documented use of 'tanking' we can find is. 
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Sep 21, 2014 04:46
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