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The conditions and exceptions make this a pretty toothless new rule for Kickstarter. I'm sure the guys working on Exalted could easily accomplish: "they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned." Of course explaining what work has been done would require them to open up their hilarious shell of secrecy a little, though.
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Sep 22, 2014 21:26
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theironjef posted:The conditions and exceptions make this a pretty toothless new rule for Kickstarter. I'm sure the guys working on Exalted could easily accomplish: What was the reason for that secrecy, by the way? I've followed this thread for so long, I've forgotten what that was about. And when is the book supposed to come out again? Isn't it overdue for more then a year now? This kind of bullshit makes me glad I never actually had the chance to play Exalted. 
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Sep 22, 2014 22:48
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Libluini posted:What was the reason for that secrecy, by the way? I've followed this thread for so long, I've forgotten what that was about. And when is the book supposed to come out again? Isn't it overdue for more then a year now? This kind of bullshit makes me glad I never actually had the chance to play Exalted. So that you can have the child-like joy of opening your presents on Christmas morning (Read: We don't like the reactions our player base have previously shown when given pre-release material).
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Sep 22, 2014 22:52
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NIV3K posted:So that you can have the child-like joy of opening your presents on Christmas morning (Read: We don't like the reactions our player base have previously shown when given pre-release material). Looks like that Christmas morning is more like a prophecy waiting to be fullfilled years from now. Well, nice not trying you, Exalted. This reminds me, I still have 2nd Edition Earthdawn lying around somewhere. Also never got around to actually playing it, due to not finding a group. Is there a thread or something already? If not, maybe I could make one, but it will be bad. (I'm so ignorant about RPGs, I never even questioned why there was only the English language edition in my German shop. So I just grabbed it while thinking "Neat, finally me learning English pays off!"  )Reading up on Earthdawn was what lead me to Exalted in the first place, by the way. That and some weird webcomic which went on indefinite hiatus as soon as I started reading it. Libluini fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Sep 22, 2014 |
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Sep 22, 2014 23:31
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Because if it is a turd then they can lay the blame at stuff (online leaks, rushed deadlines, space zombies) and not have to accept that the large fan base they have might have something to say about the product they helped fund. After all they are CREATORS and ARTISTS! They know better than ignorant masses with their questions and comments! How can these supermen of industry and commerce relate to the low common man? So just shut up and lap up what they give us. Soon we shall all bask in the gloriousness of Exalted 3rd edition!!! I need to take a shower now
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Sep 22, 2014 23:42
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Libluini posted:What was the reason for that secrecy, by the way? I've followed this thread for so long, I've forgotten what that was about. And when is the book supposed to come out again? Isn't it overdue for more then a year now? This kind of bullshit makes me glad I never actually had the chance to play Exalted. That said, there is significant circumstantial evidence that they are developing SOMETHING, so some kind of Exalted 3rd Edition will probably come to pass. In theory the later stuff will as well, but we'll have to see when we get there, won't we.
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Sep 22, 2014 23:45
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Because during the Kickstarter they created the impression that they had a fully-written manuscript ready to go:Holden posted:Also WE HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THIS SINCE SPRING OF LAST YEAR. And it turns out that what they had ready to go was a vague idea for a manuscript.
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Sep 22, 2014 23:52
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drunkencarp posted:Because during the Kickstarter they created the impression that they had a fully-written manuscript ready to go: Exalted 3E is one of the very few things I've Kickstartered that I absolutely regret doing so, partially for the whole constant delays/being lied to about completion levels and partially for other reasons. Oh well.
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Sep 23, 2014 00:02
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drunkencarp posted:Because during the Kickstarter they created the impression that they had a fully-written manuscript ready to go: They had about 12% of a manuscript ready to go.
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Sep 23, 2014 00:07
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Prism posted:Exalted 3E is one of the very few things I've Kickstartered that I absolutely regret doing so, partially for the whole constant delays/being lied to about completion levels and partially for other reasons.
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Sep 23, 2014 00:12
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theironjef posted:The conditions and exceptions make this a pretty toothless new rule for Kickstarter. I'm sure the guys working on Exalted could easily accomplish: Like I said in the Kickstarter thread, I don't actually understand what's changed any with this "new" Kickstarter policy. Kickstarter has always said it requires creators to make a good-faith effort to deliver on projects and the ability to get people together for a class-action lawsuit has always existed, there's just literally no way to enforce the former to any rigorous standard and the difficulty with organizing the latter still remains the biggest obstacle to actually doing it.
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Sep 23, 2014 00:48
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I'd love to hear some kind of explanation for why someone thought "Oct 2013" was a good thing to put in the box on the Kickstarter form for estimated delivery, given the drive ended in June 2013 and it takes a certain amount of time to do layout and printing and such, which are steps in the process you do after you have a complete manuscript, not just a vague idea for a complete manuscript. The Exalted Kickstarter is the only one I've funded that I regret, and I backed the Goats Kickstarter.
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Sep 23, 2014 01:52
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I think one of the worse parts of the Exalted KS is that all of the other recent Onyx Path KSs have been phenomenal in comparison. So it was easy to assume that this was just going to be another great Onyx Path KS. And even after all of the awful stuff coming out during it you could at least tell yourself that it will at least be released soon like the others were. Obviously we know that is now not true.
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Sep 23, 2014 02:32
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Monday meeting notes released on a Monday! Exalted 3rd Edition core book- the whole drat book is in editing or back from editing, with the exception of one piece of fiction that just wasn’t doing what we wanted, so we re-commissioned it.
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Sep 23, 2014 02:53
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Libluini posted:That and some weird webcomic which went on indefinite hiatus as soon as I started reading it. Was it Keychain of Creation? I miss Keychain of Creation
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Sep 23, 2014 03:36
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hangedman1984 posted:Was it Keychain of Creation? I blame Keychain of Creation for a majority of really bad Exalted thoughts, including the 'you aren't playing a person, you are playing an Exaltation' due to Misho.
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Sep 23, 2014 03:50
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Monday meeting notes released on a Monday! Sadly this Monday Meeting Note is more descriptive then any other note they've ever given us. All I ever wanted was for them to say "We have 7 sections, 3 sections are in editing and the other 4 are being written still". Even now, even when it sounds like the book is pretty much done. I want my money back. Though to be honest if the game is good I'll be happy.
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Sep 23, 2014 04:27
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Honestly I don't see how anyone ever backs an Exalted Kickstarter again after this. I know I certainly won't and I can't think of anyone else outside of the WW forums who might be that stupid. It just feels like they've completely cut their own feet off for any future products.
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Sep 23, 2014 04:29
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mistaya posted:Honestly I don't see how anyone ever backs an Exalted Kickstarter again after this. I know I certainly won't and I can't think of anyone else outside of the WW forums who might be that stupid. It just feels like they've completely cut their own feet off for any future products.
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Sep 23, 2014 04:33
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anti_strunt posted:Has the setting ever even held any cultures adhering to hyper-neurotic Victorian sexual morality, beyond a basic kitchen-sink possibility of replicating any period of human history? Rylea, a Northern Kingdom that appears solely in Arianna's background (IIRC), isn't Victorian per se. However, it held a "wives, servants, or mistresses" attitude towards women.
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Sep 23, 2014 04:52
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Coral was pretty notorious for being particularly nasty. I believe women were actually considered property?
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Sep 23, 2014 05:06
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drunkencarp posted:I'd love to hear some kind of explanation for why someone thought "Oct 2013" was a good thing to put in the box on the Kickstarter form for estimated delivery, given the drive ended in June 2013 and it takes a certain amount of time to do layout and printing and such, which are steps in the process you do after you have a complete manuscript, not just a vague idea for a complete manuscript.
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Sep 23, 2014 07:25
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Bardlebee posted:Sadly this Monday Meeting Note is more descriptive then any other note they've ever given us. All I ever wanted was for them to say "We have 7 sections, 3 sections are in editing and the other 4 are being written still". The Monday Meeting updates have been giving pretty regular (weekly, even!) descriptions of how many sections are done, what stage of completion they're at, etc etc. Sure, they should have been cross-posted to the kickstarter, but there's plenty of evidence that work is being done (especially compared to some other Onyx Path lines - I'm looking at you, Mummy).
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Sep 23, 2014 07:44
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I honestly can't understand how this KS hasn't turned into a giant shitstorm of angry nerds demanding compensation. I backed up to the -pdf and that's it, and I'm still kind of bitter because I did it under false information and an impossible promise. Nerds are usualy so gun-ho about this kind of poo poo, but in Ex3's case it has been pretty chill in general. I mean, look how people are crying over Starbound and its lack of updates (it updates NIGHTLY) but only a few are angry about Ex3's moonwalking turtle speed. I guess the Waifu factor for a bunch of them is enough to keep them quiet. If I could get my money back, I would. I don't even think I'll play Ex3 in any haste, because my hype has died and other games have taken its place. And the secrecy thing is just super loving stupid, pretentious and either condecending or suspicious. A simple official draft would've done wonders to player's goodwill. Instead they retract further into their chamber of solitude when a playtest leaks, and fight tooth and nail to keep it down. One year later and we only have like 10 pages of actual information due to the backer updates. Had they simply been transparent about their design and involved the community a bit more, no one could really fault them. But lying about the original state of the manuscrit, the extreme secrecy and few worrying peeks at how they mind works... mistaya posted:Honestly I don't see how anyone ever backs an Exalted Kickstarter again after this. I know I certainly won't and I can't think of anyone else outside of the WW forums who might be that stupid. It just feels like they've completely cut their own feet off for any future products. Yeah, unless the game turns out really, really good (it won't), all of this KS thing will end up in a weaker line. I doubt they'll ever see even half the money from another kickstarter (and Abyssals would've probably pulled closer results). Good thing the rest of OOP is doing pretty great. edit. I'm not really as bitter as I sound, just dissapointed and a bit ticked that they keep being this obtuse when a simple "hey we hosed up, we'll do better as we approach the goal. Here's 20 pages on combat." would put many concerns at ease. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 07:51
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Yeah, I won't be backing an Exalted Kickstarter with this leadership again. I could have handled the delays or lack of transparency, but both delaying your product by at least a year at this point and having such a black-box development process shows a remarkable amount of disdain for backers. As far as I'm concerned, every backer should have received a PDF of at least whatever the gently caress they had thus far by the end of 2013.
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Sep 23, 2014 08:07
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I honestly can't understand how this KS hasn't turned into a giant shitstorm of angry nerds demanding compensation. I backed up to the -pdf and that's it, and I'm still kind of bitter because I did it under false information and an impossible promise. Maybe it's performance art about the Great Curse?
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Sep 23, 2014 08:55
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To be less negative towards Exalted, least directly: I really like what OP has done with regards to the open-development of their other lines. It's not like they're crowd sourcing their new stuff; I don't know that any of the spoiled segments from B&S or the upcoming Mage 2e line were changed substantially in response to fan criticisms, but people still ate it up (including me) and it definitely created a lot of confidence to buy. I get that the Exalted Kickstarter was technically 'for' their special edition but it feels like you shouldn't worry about that sort of thing years before you've finished your product. I have a great idea for a book but I'm not really concerned about releasing it with a signed t-shirt at this juncture.
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Sep 23, 2014 09:04
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I honestly can't understand how this KS hasn't turned into a giant shitstorm of angry nerds demanding compensation. I backed up to the -pdf and that's it, and I'm still kind of bitter because I did it under false information and an impossible promise. There was a bit of a one on RPG.net but it got jumped on pretty hard as soon as someone mentioned compensation. I'm not really sure where it'd start, most of the news goes up on RPG.net or Onyx Path so all the Exalted fans gravitate there, but you can't really start a riot without getting banned.
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Sep 23, 2014 09:12
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:Yeah, I won't be backing an Exalted Kickstarter with this leadership again. I could have handled the delays or lack of transparency, but both delaying your product by at least a year at this point and having such a black-box development process shows a remarkable amount of disdain for backers. As far as I'm concerned, every backer should have received a PDF of at least whatever the gently caress they had thus far by the end of 2013. Man, I backed this Aussie RPG called Fragged Empire and the dude was a one man show for three years, prior to opening the Kickstarter. Had all the rules in a beta phase and gave his PDF out immediately after the end of the Kickstarter to backers, not giving a gently caress about who gets it. He just wanted people to test play it into the ground so the final product would be a complete and functioning game. That is how Exalted 3rd should have gone, and I don't think there is a single person who disagrees with that due to its history of having sub-par systems. It is still the highest ever backed RPG on Kickstarter. Unbelievable that they wouldn't give out what they had for at minimum the playtest factor. Now we just have to hope on a handful (30-50 people?) to make a HUGE system with a HUGE amount of charms work together? Come on.... Exalted is my favorite RPG of all time, but I am never backing with this management ever again.
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Sep 23, 2014 13:15
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I honestly can't understand how this KS hasn't turned into a giant shitstorm of angry nerds demanding compensation. I backed up to the -pdf and that's it, and I'm still kind of bitter because I did it under false information and an impossible promise. Yeah, if I could get a refund, I would. Even if the game turned out to be great - honestly it seems to be a mix of interesting innovation and disappointing regression so far in about equal amounts - but the kickstarter has been so clown shoes I barely know where to begin. I mean, think about it, after this we're supposed to have faith they can deliver on the eight or nine Exaltbooks planned? Are we looking to wait until the next decade to see something like Infernals or Fair Folk? With the expanded charmsets, doesn't that mean more work for each such book? And more playtesting? Can the team avoid shedding members for that long? As time passes in silence, the whole prospect seems exceedingly unrealistic and I feel like a  for having faith in it.
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Sep 23, 2014 13:46
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Bardlebee posted:Exalted is my favorite RPG of all time, but I am never backing with this management ever again. Screw backing it, I'm never touching the game period.
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Sep 23, 2014 13:55
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Sexpansion posted:Screw backing it, I'm never touching the game period. Eh, if it's good I might give it a try since I already got the pdf, so what the hell. Still, I'm 100% not buying anything else from the team. I know I'm not a Game Developer but not using a GIANT playerbase that already paid for the game is just completely idiotic. Look at FATE, that thing used its community to playtest the game at every step of the way and it ended up pretty loving great. Obviously you can't listen to every voice and try to adress every complain. But having 300 guys bitching because a charm is mandatory due to being too powerful, you just caught a problem before it being too late. Oh well. Feng Shui 2 looks fun at least, that's my future wuxia fix right now.
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Sep 23, 2014 14:30
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They've been pretty explicit about why they didn't do an open playtest: because they don't have enough people overseeing the playtest to make hundreds of additional playtesters useful.
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Sep 23, 2014 14:41
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Alien Rope Burn posted:I mean, think about it, after this we're supposed to have faith they can deliver on the eight or nine Exaltbooks planned? Are we looking to wait until the next decade to see something like Infernals or Fair Folk? With the expanded charmsets, doesn't that mean more work for each such book? And more playtesting? Can the team avoid shedding members for that long? Core mechanics like combat and skill use, and the paradigm/framework for how the game is supposed to work mechanically are things they wouldn't have to develop over again (hopefully), so that part of development-time should be null for the remaining splats. On the other hand, if the current development is any indication, they'll still have to develop some 1000-odd Charms for each splat... and each splat will have to be tested against the preceding ones (which would necessarily happen with a new edition anyway) and each splat's 1000-ish charms... (At least charmshare isn't a thing anymore!) Granted, when Charms are "replace your D10's with D9's on [skill] rolls", perhaps testing won't take as long...
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Sep 23, 2014 14:46
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Rand Brittain posted:They've been pretty explicit about why they didn't do an open playtest: because they don't have enough people overseeing the playtest to make hundreds of additional playtesters useful. Which is stupid. You don't listen to everyone. You let the community aggregate concerns and address that.
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Sep 23, 2014 14:48
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Ego Trip posted:Which is stupid. See, now I'm looking at the d20 forum on RPGnet and considering what it would be like trying to sort through all that feedback to figure out how to make a better edition of D&D. It sounds awful.
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Sep 23, 2014 15:01
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LatwPIAT posted:(At least charmshare isn't a thing anymore!) It's still a thing, it's just going to be restricted to an unclear degree. Because it's obvious that Solars need more charms, I suppose.
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Sep 23, 2014 15:04
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Rand Brittain posted:They've been pretty explicit about why they didn't do an open playtest: because they don't have enough people overseeing the playtest to make hundreds of additional playtesters useful. Hugoon Chavez posted:Obviously you can't listen to every voice and try to adress every complain. But having 300 guys bitching because a charm is mandatory due to being too powerful, you just caught a problem before it being too late. I know their justification, I just think it's bullshit. Obviously they are not going to hire 30 guys to listen to every single complain, but RPG geeks are pretty good at banding togethar and bitching about their pet issues. No need to listen to every guy to find a problem when the "125+ DICE FOR AN ATTACK!?" thread has 90 pages in five days. That's not even touching the fact that after 684k $ and a year late, backers deserve some love.
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Sep 23, 2014 15:04
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If you listen to the opinion of someone other than yourself you are legit a giant pussy bitch. I would have respected the devs more if they didn't backpedal on a lot of things and yes, it includes THAT charm.
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Sep 23, 2014 15:09
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yeah, if I could get a refund, I would. Even if the game turned out to be great - honestly it seems to be a mix of interesting innovation and disappointing regression so far in about equal amounts - but the kickstarter has been so clown shoes I barely know where to begin. I mean, think about it, after this we're supposed to have faith they can deliver on the eight or nine Exaltbooks planned? Are we looking to wait until the next decade to see something like Infernals or Fair Folk? With the expanded charmsets, doesn't that mean more work for each such book? And more playtesting? Can the team avoid shedding members for that long? There was a podcast they put out early on that talked about various books they were "planning". They were all these really bizarre niche products that only the biggest Exalted sperg could ever want. They wanted to write one book just about the Heptagram! And it was going to be kickstarted! They also wanted new splats on top of the ones they advertised in the kickstarter, like some underwater mutants. All I could think was that they had barely started writing the core book and that nothing about the line was solid or proven, so why do they have about twenty books planned and why are they advertising those books before we got the book that we actually paid for. It's nice to be ambitious, but at this point that kind of ridiculousness isn't charming. By now, a lot of the superfans that would have bought those books have lost their enthusiasm and they certainly won't be able to rely on more kickstarter money to keep their team afloat. Are fans going to wait for years to see updates to the parts of the setting they're actually excited about? I don't know if I'll be in the position to buy the Sidereals book in five years, for instance. Even if there are people really into the Heptagram, are they going to be excited about it years from now? ---------------------------------- On the plus side, they've said that one of the goals is to have charms for all the splats written from the start so that they can be balanced against one another to prevent power creep. That was probably a terrible idea, but hopefully it means the other splat books come out faster. Rand Brittain posted:See, now I'm looking at the d20 forum on RPGnet and considering what it would be like trying to sort through all that feedback to figure out how to make a better edition of D&D. Yo what? Exalted's audience is a fraction of Dungeon and Dragons/Pathfinder's, and those willing to playtest material is a fraction of that. How is the d20 forum on the most popular tradgames forum at all representative of a backer playtest?
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