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The Merkinman posted:Wily is evil because he's based on the evil Albert Einstein. Why is Albert Einstein evil? He worked on the Atomic Bomb. Where did they get detonated and what is the country of origin for Mega Man? ...New Mexico?
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Sep 23, 2014 16:04
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The Merkinman posted:Wily is evil because he's based on the evil Albert Einstein. Why is Albert Einstein evil? He worked on the Atomic Bomb. Where did they get detonated and what is the country of origin for Mega Man? That sounds dumb and un-educated even for people who make video games for a living
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Sep 23, 2014 16:13
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ChaosArgate posted:You gotta love how they introduced a robot virus in the game where the roman numeral for 10 is X. I don't like MM9 or 10, but I loving love Solarman's theme, especially when it's remixed. It almost screams "gently caress YOU, BURN!!  "Also, Solarman is an angry robot with a flaming sombrero, and I can get behind that.
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Sep 23, 2014 17:11
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Screaming Idiot posted:I don't like MM9 or 10 Why is this, screaming idiot?
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Sep 23, 2014 17:13
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Blackheart posted:Why is this, screaming idiot? I don't know if you're trying to insult me or not, but they seem more like a cash-grab on people who slavishly worship "oldschool" styling than an attempt to make new Megaman games. After twenty five years of progress all they can give us is 8-bit throwbacks? I know they can make good 2d games with modern graphics on major consoles, and if Capcom would just spend the time and money to have one made it would sell! People like Megaman for reasons other than the fact it was 8-bit! And they know it, but it won't sell CoD numbers, so they won't do it. After all, a big potential profit is much better than a medium definite one, and two birds in the bush are better than one in hand.
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Sep 23, 2014 17:33
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Screaming Idiot posted:if Capcom would just spend the time and money to have one made it would sell! People like Megaman for reasons other than the fact it was 8-bit! No it wouldn't. The 8-bit Mega Man games sold much, much, much more than the later-era games made with modern graphics on newer consoles. Like you're straight-up wrong about this. Mega Man games were not big sellers and improving their budgets did not have any noticeable impact on their sales. Edit: To emphasize this, Mega Man Battle Network outsold every Mega Man X title released from the PS1 onwwards and Mega Man Battle Network 4 was the only game to approach the sales of the 8-bit era games. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 17:38
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Hey, I'm not judging, screaming idiot. I just wanted to know. Thank you.
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Sep 23, 2014 17:40
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Mega Man 7 looks kind of like rear end though.
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Sep 23, 2014 17:40
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ImpAtom posted:No it wouldn't. The 8-bit Mega Man games sold much, much, much more than the later-era games made with modern graphics on newer consoles. I don't know, have they ever tried making a classic Megaman game with modern graphics on a major console in recent memory? I'm not saying it has to be Crysis-level, buit c'mon, if a Megaman lookalike can get over a million dollars without so much as a demo, then surely Capcom could make its money back and then some on Megaman 11: No Longer the 80s. Dabir posted:Mega Man 7 looks kind of like rear end though. Not to millions of people with MSpaint during the late 90's!  (It really does though. It's the weakest game in the series.) Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 17:43
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Screaming Idiot posted:I don't know, have they ever tried making a classic Megaman game with modern graphics on a major console in recent memory? I'm not saying it has to be Crysis-level, buit c'mon, if a Megaman lookalike can get over a million dollars without so much as a demo, then surely Capcom could make its money back and then some on Megaman 11: No Longer the 80s. They tried it on the PS1 and the PS2 and those games all sold significantly worse. The only Mega Man games to sell well since the 8-bit era were the Battle Network games. Judging the sales potential of MM based off MN9's kickstarter is foolish for a lot of reasons. For one, it made a lot of money off rather large investments. The average donation number to MN9 was $60 but only from around 70,000 donators. Non-Kickstarter donations kicked it up slightly but not significantly so. That's a lot of fan goodwill but that doesn't translate into a reasonable number of assured sales.
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Sep 23, 2014 17:47
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Also, a lot of money came from people who just wanted to say "gently caress Capcom". Old school Mega Man isn't the only franchise Capcom has essentially let die off, and MN9 basically rode high on people saying "These guys will give us games Capcom won't". In addition to all that, MN9's word-of-mouth marketing swell was way bigger than Capcom has managed for Megaman in years. People were spreading the news as far as they could, because this wasn't a big corporation doing big corporation things. The fact that Inafune was seen as a "rebel" got a lot of people to throw money at him that they wouldn't throw at Capcom as a whole. It was investing in something more focused, and that got wallets opened wider. Last thing: The Kickstarter proceeds are not profits. They are development costs. This is not money that is going into the company's pockets to make them richer. It is money to fund the development. The actual profit comes after they finish the product and put it on sale. As of yet, they've got money to pay their workers for assets and time, not money to put in a big pool and jump in. Capcom could absolutely throw a ton of money into developing a similar game, but if the game can't recoup its costs, that is a money sink. At the moment, MN9 has been paid for, but how much money they'll actually earn in profit is up in the air. It may not be enough for a company like Capcom to care, or it may be enough to buy and sell a small nation. We don't know yet. What the fact that it's Kickstarter means, though, is that the public paid for the game development costs, not the company. That allows them to take more risks, because they'll build based around the funding people are willing to give. A lot of people are willing to sink relatively small amounts of money into a relatively smaller risk, and since no one entity is funding MN9, it really amounts to a massive number of small risks adding up to a big one. Kurui Reiten fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 18:01
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Yeah, it's worth noting that Inafune did a masterful marketing job painting himself as an industry outsider. A lot of the money MN9 made was based off Inafune's really solid marketing campaign. He also teamed up with other companies to help solidify what he could do and took advantage of his name and reputation to get other projects to shore up Comcept while they worked on MN9. It isn't like MN9 is the only source of income for Comcept. In comparison Igarashi, the guy responsible for the Castlevania-Metroid fusion games, left Konami with the intention of making a kickstarter and eventually was forced to take a job making mobile games because he didn't think he could feed his family off Kickstarter funds. Kurui Reiten posted:At the moment, MN9 has been paid for, but how much money they'll actually earn in profit is up in the air. It may not be enough for a company like Capcom to care, or it may be enough to buy and sell a small nation. We don't know yet. Also it's important to note that MN9 has been paid for assuming everything goes as planned. They have a lot of spare money but they've also made a lot of promises. I don't think MN9 will fail but that doesn't necessarily mean it will be made entirely off the money they got from Kickstarter either. A lot of other Kickstarters have been pretty open about the fact that they money they get is rarely enough for a reasonable development budget. Many will work for little or no pay or have second jobs to keep themselves afloat while they work on the game. In comparison a company like Capcom is not going to get away with this. They have to pay their employees and keep their benefits going. A lot of Kickstarters, in comparison, will see fan backlash if they include "eating" and "rent" on their expected costs. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 18:09
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IIRC Shovel Knight people couldn't pay their musician until after release.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:14
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Megaman's always been a cult franchise, but Capcom doesn't lose money on it. I guess it's safe to say that Megaman, as a franchise, is dead and never coming back*. And no, MN9 isn't Megaman, no matter how much 70,000 fans and Inafune want it to be. *unless you count awful cellphone games.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:14
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Screaming Idiot posted:Megaman's always been a cult franchise, but Capcom doesn't lose money on it. Yes they do! They in fact lost quite a bit of money on it. Games like Mega Man Legends and the later X games hugely underperformed for their budgets. Capcom has said that Mega Man 9 and 10 performed well for their budgets but that is the most positive outcome the franchise has had in some time. They got a really big windfall in Mega Man Battle Network not just because it sold but because (in Japan at least) it was also really effective as an out-of-game marketing tool with a lot of toys and gadgets they could market to children. Arguably it is the most successful Mega Man was ever and it wasn't just because of the games. If Mega Man games were making healthy amounts of money, Capcom would absolutely be exploiting the poo poo out of them. If there is one thing you can say about Capcom it is that they're not afraid to milk things for all they are worth. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 18:15
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Screaming Idiot posted:Megaman's always been a cult franchise, but Capcom doesn't lose money on it. Did you miss the part where we said that as of yet, Comcept hasn't made any real money on MN9? Also, no one is saying MN9 is literally a reskinned Megaman game. It is, however, intended to be a new game in exactly that style, that invokes nostalgia for it. If you can't stand that, you should probably move on, because you're sounding like one of those Transformers fans who can't handle anything that came after 1985.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:17
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Megaman is a cult franchise because Capcom lost money on it.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:17
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ImpAtom posted:Mega Man Battle Network 4 was the only game to approach the sales of the 8-bit era games. v EDIT: Oh, don't get me wrong, BN4 is not a good game, but it still sold drat well. Waterfall of Salt fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 18:21
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Waterfall of Salt posted:Approach is kind of underselling it, Battle Network is the second best selling Mega Man game released at 1.35 million, after Mega Man 2 at 1.51 million. X and 3 are the only other Mega Man games to break a million in sales. On the other hand it also killed the franchise so
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Sep 23, 2014 18:24
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TheKingofSprings posted:On the other hand it also killed the franchise so I don't understand why they did what they did. Dedicated fans are usually willing to accept mediocrity and you can coast by on that for a very long time. Instead they made a game that was actively terrible.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:27
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Pureauthor posted:I don't understand why they did what they did. Dedicated fans are usually willing to accept mediocrity and you can coast by on that for a very long time. Instead they made a game that was actively terrible. They were trying to rush it out to capitalize on popularity. I mean it kind of worked in that it sold gangbusters but short-term gains are short-term for a reason.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:28
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BlitzBlast posted:Megaman is a cult franchise because Capcom lost money on it.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:29
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Pureauthor posted:I don't understand why they did what they did. Dedicated fans are usually willing to accept mediocrity and you can coast by on that for a very long time. Instead they made a game that was actively terrible. Unlike 2 and 3, BN4 featured a brand new engine. Battle Network was coming out yearly, so presumably they just ran out of time to make a solid game, threw together a bunch of assets and ideas, and shipped the game. See: X7.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:30
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The Merkinman posted:It remains to be seen, but probably the most popular game where you play as Mega Man won't even be a Mega Man game nor by Capcom Yeah, to emphasize this: Super Smash Brothers for DS has already sold more in Japan than any Mega Man game ever.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:31
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Kurui Reiten posted:Did you miss the part where we said that as of yet, Comcept hasn't made any real money on MN9? You know what? You're right. I like the modern Megaman games more than I do the classics, but if they're not going to be made any more, I'll move on to something else. MN9 looks mediocre at best, and I think if Megaman can't succeed in today's gaming climate, then Ersatzman Number 9 won't cut it either. Edit: Fixed typos, removed some whiny bullshit. I still don't like MM9 and MM10. Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 18:35
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Screaming Idiot posted:Also, holy crap, apparently I'm not allowed to dislike retro games without being treated like a pariah. Caring more about a game's visuals than its gameplay is kinda silly, yeah. v  v I mean that is the thing you keep harping on. It's fine to dislike retro-style graphics but most people who really enjoy Mega Man do so for the gameplay. Even those who want better visuals are not going to be particularly sympathetic to your arguments that games like Maverick Hunter X are 'too cartoony,' especially on the Japanese end where they recognize that Mega Man is just Astro Boy meets Casshern. I mean that is a really big thing to understand here. Mega Man is a silly-rear end franchise. The main characters are named Rock, Roll, and Blues. They fight the evil Dr. Wily with the help from Dr. Light (or Dr. Right), which is the most Saturday Morning Cartoon thing you can be. Even when it gets ~super serious~ later on in the X franchise or Zero games, it does so in a way which, to the original Japanese developers, is in the style of a cartoon designed for children. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 18:44
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I gotta say, I'm not too impressed with MN9 so far. I'm willing to give it a chance when it's 100% finished.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:50
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Blackheart posted:I gotta say, I'm not too impressed with MN9 so far. I'm willing to give it a chance when it's 100% finished. I haven't really been thrilled with the level design or pacing in the beta videos so far to be honest. It doesn't look terrible but there hasn't been much that got me really excited either. It seems like fairly generic Inti Creates-style level design which is fun for speedrunning but kind of eh otherwise. Shovel Knight really raised the bar on my expectations, I think. There's still a lot of time to clean it up and polish and I doubt it'll be bad but I kinda expect it to be Gunvolt-tier.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:53
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The Merkinman posted:Wily is evil because he's based on the evil Albert Einstein. Why is Albert Einstein evil? He worked on the Atomic Bomb. Where did they get detonated and what is the country of origin for Mega Man? This is dumb because Light clearly causes way more trouble over time because it was his idea to have robots at all. Anything bad Wily did was only possible because Light started this poo poo off at all. Extrapolate that into the X and Dash series into the future and welp Dr Light maybe your dream was nightmare after all.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:55
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Going by Battle Network, it was Wily who started off the whole robot thing. Light just wanted a magical internet. 
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Sep 23, 2014 18:56
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BlitzBlast posted:Going by Battle Network, it was Wily who started off the whole robot thing. Light just wanted a magical internet. Well, to be fair, the backstory there was that Light decided to make the internet instead of robots and made such a good internet that everyone told robots to gently caress off. If he'd gone into robots then he just would have outshone Wily entirely. Sucks for you either way, Doc.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:57
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ImpAtom posted:Caring more about a game's visuals than its gameplay is kinda silly, yeah. v It's not just the visuals, it's the presentation as a whole as well as some of the gameplay changes. Chiptunes are grating to my ears, but the melodies are awesome -- why can't we have hi-def music? The gameplay isn't bad -- even the worst Megaman games to me are merely mediocre -- but the "intelligent" decision to remove abilities that have been standard since the third game in the series really hurts it. The ability to play as Protoman and Bass don't mean anything to me -- Protoman plays like Megaman in the past games, except he takes more damage and Bass brings back Veitnam-esque flashbacks to that awful Megaman and Bass GBA port. Also, DLC for a loving 8-bit game? Are you kidding me? What's wrong with sliding and charging? Why do the developers feel the need to prune abilities that have been in-game for years? If sliding and charging make the game too easy, balance the game around them! Make charge shots do less damage to Robot Masters, make engaging sliding puzzles, make Master weapons more versatile and fun to use, something, anything other than trying to ape Megaman 2. Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 18:58
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Screaming Idiot posted:Also, DLC for a loving 8-bit game? Are you kidding me? This stood out to me...why is DLC for a game done in a certain visual style more egregious than DLC for any other game?
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Sep 23, 2014 19:00
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Probably the idea was to make the gameplay like megaman 2 since people kept saying that was the best megaman game (it kind of wasn't, there is not really a "best" megaman game)jivjov posted:This stood out to me...why is DLC for a game done in a certain visual style more egregious than DLC for any other game? si seems to think the games are literally 8 bits and a few kb like the old megaman games instead of modern engines that use old graphics and sound
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Sep 23, 2014 19:01
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MM9 has, by far, the most versatile and fun robot master weapons. I think there's not a single bad one. I agree about the slide since it was a very fun ability but the no megabuster thing is OK to me. Hmm this thread reminds me I still haven't played shovel knight, it's really inexcusable. I'm OK with chiptunes if the music is good, the only thing I never understand is when they make a "retro game" with snes-like graphics but nes-style music and sound - whaaat? Blackheart fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 19:03
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jivjov posted:This stood out to me...why is DLC for a game done in a certain visual style more egregious than DLC for any other game? I'm against DLC in general, but it just seems even more inane somehow. I get that sometimes DLC can significantly add to a game experience, and in some cases is practically a new game in and of itself, but for Capcom to cut basic abilities out of the game and then patch them back in -- but worse! -- for a price just gets my proverbial goat. Also, Megaman 2 is overhyped as hell. We get it, Metal Blade and the Wily fortress theme, woo-hoo. 5 was better. 
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Sep 23, 2014 19:06
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Screaming Idiot posted:It's not just the visuals, it's the presentation as a whole as well as some of the gameplay changes. Chiptunes are grating to my ears, but the melodies are awesome -- why can't we have hi-def music? The gameplay isn't bad -- even the worst Megaman games to me are merely mediocre -- but the "intelligent" decision to remove abilities that have been standard since the third game in the series really hurts it. The ability to play as Protoman and Bass don't mean anything to me -- Protoman plays like Megaman in the past games, except he takes more damage and Bass brings back Veitnam-esque flashbacks to that awful Megaman and Bass GBA port. Also, DLC for a loving 8-bit game? Are you kidding me? Alternatively, they could do none of those things, and you can deal w/it.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:07
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Screaming Idiot posted:Also, DLC for a loving 8-bit game? Are you kidding me? There's no reason that DLC should be any less viable for that sort of game. You can argue against DLC in general but it isn't like there are not countless other examples on the market of DLC for lower-budget games. You seem to be approaching MM9/10 as if they are a literal romhack of MM2 but they're not. They're designed from the ground up to mimic 8-bit gameplay but with certain elements which wouldn't be possible on a literal NES. (Some of the physics puzzles.) Screaming Idiot posted:What's wrong with sliding and charging? Why do the developers feel the need to prune abilities that have been in-game for years? If sliding and charging make the game too easy, balance the game around them! Make charge shots do less damage to Robot Masters, make engaging sliding puzzles, make Master weapons more versatile and fun to use, something, anything other than trying to ape Megaman 2. In both cases sliding and charging are not necessarily positive gains. Charging, as you mentioned, makes the game easier, and beyond a certain point balancing it becomes a problem. If you make charge shots do less damage to robot masters then what is the point of having them? The big advantage of a charge shot from a gameplay perspective is that it allows you to do more damage to a robot master during their vulnerable periods. It is possible to balance charging but what does it really add to the game? Is holding down the attack button really so fun that its absence is a noticeable loss? Sliding is easier to defend but it requires either designing the game to make full use of it or leaving it feeling kind of vestigial and useless. "Complex sliding puzzles" are the kind of thing that would slow a level down and which people generally tend to dislike. A big part of Mega Man's design philosophy is a constant sense of forward movement, barring a few notable exceptions like the vanishing blocks which you can circumvent with gained powers. I don't think sliding would hurt if it was put back in but not if it is put back in just to have sliding. MM9 has some of the most versatile and powerful weapons in Mega Man history, so they already did that. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 19:08
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Can I bring up that shovel knight is being recommended as the not mega man to play while having extra stages and bosses beyond the main eight and no life system? When I talked earlier about thinking a new megaman needed to do those things a bunch of people were like noooo you HAVE to have a life system and eight stages and all that. Its not perfect, see highwangs recent vid about it. Usually I'm the "anti hard core guy" but yeah I didn't think they gave you enough things to buy and things like that. But it gets the fundamentals right and has a very customizable experience allowing many playstyles to go through the game and have fun in their own way - something I've harped on the zero games and latter x games about.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:18
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ImpAtom posted:There's no reason that DLC should be any less viable for that sort of game. You can argue against DLC in general but it isn't like there are not countless other examples on the market of DLC for lower-budget games. You seem to be approaching MM9/10 as if they are a literal romhack of MM2 but they're not. They're designed from the ground up to mimic 8-bit gameplay but with certain elements which wouldn't be possible on a literal NES. (Some of the physics puzzles.) I like what MM8 did with the charge shot -- it did decent damage, and you could customize it to suit your needs. They absolutely could have made it work in later games. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't have balanced it in later games. Why not, for instance, make certain Robot Masters immune to the stronger charge shot, forcing you to rely on your regular buster, appropriate Master weapon, or alternate charge shot? Why not pull a Kaiser Sigma and make it so that your stronger charge shot is simply too big to hit a tiny weak spot? The franchise is littered with examples of the charge shot used well and it's disingenuous to flat-out state it couldn't be balanced. Also, how do sliding puzzles ruin the flow? I enjoyed them. There was one in Protoman/Darkman's castle in MM5 were really interesting: there was an incorrect route, a safe route, and a route that netted you an E-Tank (or an M-Tank, it's been a while since I've played). I also enjoyed levels like Frostman's in MM8 -- they were properly-paced sliding puzzles that required you to be quick on the draw. I don't think you can generalize the fans' feelings in this matter so easily; most people want the slide, and if the other games could make use of it, then surely it's not so impossible to do. In fact, you claim that the charge and slide were too difficult to balance, when the previous games did exactly that. Oxxidation posted:Alternatively, they could do none of those things, and you can deal w/it. I do, by not buying them.
Screaming Idiot fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 19:21
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