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Why do people reply to Screaming Idiot?
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Sep 23, 2014 19:22
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Great Joe posted:Why do people reply to Screaming Idiot? Not much else to do and actually he's being far more reasonable and less hyperbolic than usual, he actually made some good points last post.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:23
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Rita Repulsa posted:Can I bring up that shovel knight is being recommended as the not mega man to play while having extra stages and bosses beyond the main eight and no life system? When I talked earlier about thinking a new megaman needed to do those things a bunch of people were like noooo you HAVE to have a life system and eight stages and all that. A lot of people cling to life systems as a thing that games had and continue to need to have, but yeah, the honest truth is that they're pretty outdated. They're a relic of arcade culture and there's no real reason to keep them around. Screaming Idiot posted:In fact, you claim that the charge and slide were too difficult to balance, when the previous games did exactly that. Many of the things you cited are examples of bad design. Like, literally, in case of Jump Jump, Slide Slide which is kind of infamously regarded as one of the worst bits of Mega Man design. You've yet to cite why the charge shot is a good thing, just that you like it. Unless you're allowing alternate charge shots to be equipped in-stage like boss weapons, why treat each as a different weapon? If you are doing that, why make them charge shots instead of their own distinct weapon? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 19:24
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I hate to admit it, but I do kinda agree with SI on some points. I don't really have any nostalgia attached to the original MM games, despite starting with MM2, so I'm cool with all the more modern improvements like dashing and charge shots. Like with most things it tried, I think the Zero games perfected it with the utility it tended to add to them as well as more damage, and it even made it a combo starter. And I keep hearing people say MN9 is shaping up to be more like MMZ, I'm curious, why say that? It looks way slower, even at its fastest.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:39
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A lot of comparisons have been made between Gunvolt and Mega Man Zero, and as I think about it, most of the problems that I have with Gunvolt are because of those similarities, coupled with its unique mechanics. I actually feel like if Gunvolt was more like a classic Mega Man, with a focus on individual screens as obstacles as opposed to large scrolling levels, it would be better for it. As it is, the parts of the levels just kind of blend together, and the tiny screen real estate doesn't help at all.Blackheart posted:MM9 has, by far, the most versatile and fun robot master weapons. I think there's not a single bad one. I could never find good uses for magma bazooka or concrete shot. They both felt pretty worthless to me, outside of boss battles and the sections that you must use concrete in Wily's castle. Well, at least they're better than skull barrier!
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Sep 23, 2014 19:42
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S-Alpha posted:I hate to admit it, but I do kinda agree with SI on some points. I don't really have any nostalgia attached to the original MM games, despite starting with MM2, so I'm cool with all the more modern improvements like dashing and charge shots. Like with most things it tried, I think the Zero games perfected it with the utility it tended to add to them as well as more damage, and it even made it a combo starter. The big thing the Zero games get right is risk/reward. There's a legitimate reason to use both the regular attacks and the charge attacks. (Aside from maybe the Z-Buster which suffers from the same basic design problems.) It isn't always perfect about it but the charge attacks carry a significant gameplay decision. MN9 is shaping up to be slower but it seems to have a really huge emphasis on chaining together combo strings, avoiding damage and earning a high score. The level design and general enemy design are far more reminiscent of later MMZ than they are classic and it seems to have a greater focus on taking damage at all being a failure (in the same way Gunvolt and MMZ do) over Mega Man's relative de-emphasis over minor damage being a problem. Gaffle posted:I could never find good uses for magma bazooka or concrete shot. They both felt pretty worthless to me, outside of boss battles and the sections that you must use concrete in Wily's castle. Well, at least they're better than skull barrier! Concrete Shot allows you to bypass a ton of obstacles or make dangerous jumps way safer. It isn't a great weapon but it is an amazing utility tool. Magma Bazooka is kind of the worst of the lot, yeah. Especially since (surprise) it's a charge weapon with little benefit to being a charge weapon. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 19:44
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ImpAtom posted:Many of the things you cited are examples of bad design. Like, literally, in case of Jump Jump, Slide Slide which is kind of infamously regarded as one of the worst bits of Mega Man design. I stand by Jump Jump, Slide Slide as good design. It was fast-paced and made you pay attention to your surroundings. I think that there should have been more warning beyond the voice/sign cues, however, but the basic idea is solid. Charge shots give us a default weapon that feels powerful, that if balanced correctly, isn't actually that powerful. MM5's charge shot is fun and useful -- if admittedly overpowered -- but I see no reason why it has to be completely removed. Master Weapons are limited, either in general use or sheer ammo, while the buster and the charge shot are always available. I don't like using Master Weapons outside of boss fights, because the "hassle" of switching between them isn't worth worrying about running out of ammo and being forced to rely on lesser abilities or the basic lemon shooter. I think a good common ground would be to keep the charge shot, add to its versatility, but make the Master Weapons consistently more useful and fun. And hey, why not give them other effects like in the MMZ/ZX series? Fire weapons immolate enemies and burn away barriers, ice weapons freeze enemies to provide footholds and platforms, and so on. They already do this to an extent, but it's inconsistent in its application. Another problem with 8-bit graphics: one of the draws for me with MM8 and other PSX titles was how each Robot Master/Maverick reacted to his weakness, with MM8 being the clear winner. Clownman got tied up in his own arms, Aquaman's water tank shattered, Grenademan giggled when you threw his grenades back at him, and so on. These visual cues are much more entertaining and immersive than seeing two more units disappear on a boss's lifebar when using the correct weapon.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:45
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Screaming Idiot posted:Charge shots give us a default weapon that feels powerful, that if balanced correctly, isn't actually that powerful. MM5's charge shot is fun and useful -- if admittedly overpowered -- but I see no reason why it has to be completely removed. Master Weapons are limited, either in general use or sheer ammo, while the buster and the charge shot are always available. I don't like using Master Weapons outside of boss fights, because the "hassle" of switching between them isn't worth worrying about running out of ammo and being forced to rely on lesser abilities or the basic lemon shooter. Again, you just don't explain why any of these things need to be charge shots, aside from a vague comment about feeling like your main weapon is powerful. I mean, no offense, but the way you're describing this is that you want a powerful weapon that you can use in any circumstances which has infinite ammo and you don't need to switch to, thereby meaning you don't have to use Robot Master weapons. Your idea for balance is making the other weapons more 'fun' which is a completely meaningless term and which doesn't seem like it would solve your problem anyway because you don't want something that has limited usages or that you have to switch to.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:52
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ImpAtom posted:Concrete Shot allows you to bypass a ton of obstacles or make dangerous jumps way safer. It isn't a great weapon but it is an amazing utility tool. ...I never even knew that you could charge Magma Bazooka. How bizarre. Screaming Idiot posted:Another problem with 8-bit graphics: one of the draws for me with MM8 and other PSX titles was how each Robot Master/Maverick reacted to his weakness, with MM8 being the clear winner. Clownman got tied up in his own arms, Aquaman's water tank shattered, Grenademan giggled when you threw his grenades back at him, and so on. These visual cues are much more entertaining and immersive than seeing two more units disappear on a boss's lifebar when using the correct weapon. I think you make a lot of good points with regard to the presentation of MM9 and 10. The 8-bit style made for a great boost to appeal to old school fans, but ultimately higher-quality presentation can add a whole lot to the game. Ideally, should Mega Man 11 ever actually happen, I'd like to see them follow Cave Story+'s example with options to choose old-school or modern graphics and sound.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:55
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The easiest way to reconcile the charge shot and the master weapons is to let you charge master weapons into more interesting versions as well.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:56
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Shovel knight had eight bit graphics but the sprites and screen size were much bigger than the nes mega man games, so you cans see more of the screen at a time to the benefit of the gameplay and enemies have more personality but they still get the nostalgia points for much of the time adhering to nes graphics rules
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Sep 23, 2014 19:58
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The Bee posted:The easiest way to reconcile the charge shot and the master weapons is to let you charge master weapons into more interesting versions as well. Well, the problem isn't that the charge shot is too interesting. It is that its existence requires you to balance enemy HP around it and to always hold down the attack button because there is no meaningful benefit to not charging a shot. (The fact that the awful charging noise is constant is annoying but is a problem that should be easily fixed.) I mean MN9 is actually an interesting example here. It replaces the regular charge shot with a forward damaging dash. This is a useful thing that plays into the core mechanics but doesn't always represent an optimal choice. (Although we'll see how it pans out in final gameplay. The charge-dash in Mighty Gunvolt is so terrible as to be nearly worthless.) It does so without just going "okay, he's invincible to your attack, never use it instead!"
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Sep 23, 2014 20:00
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The Bee posted:The easiest way to reconcile the charge shot and the master weapons is to let you charge master weapons into more interesting versions as well. I wanted to suggest that, but I'd get told "that's Megaman X's feature." I think Master Weapons themselves could make good alternatives to charged weapons if you could make it your default weapon a la Megaman: Powered Up's playable Robot Masters. Remove the energy cost, but it becomes your standard charged weapon. ImpAtom posted:Again, you just don't explain why any of these things need to be charge shots, aside from a vague comment about feeling like your main weapon is powerful. Master Weapons are pretty dull. I'll explain a little more when I get the chance -- I gotta clock in to work now.
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Sep 23, 2014 20:01
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Screaming Idiot posted:I stand by Jump Jump, Slide Slide as good design. It was fast-paced and made you pay attention to your surroundings. I think that there should have been more warning beyond the voice/sign cues, however, but the basic idea is solid. Jump Jump, Slide Slide as good design? Come on man, it was almost like a whole level filled with quick-time events where screwing up once kills you instantly. Thank god they had the notices at all, though, because it would've been impossible without the "Jump Jump!" or "Slide Slide!" cues. Maybe it would've been alright and less annoying if a miss wasn't instant death.
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Sep 23, 2014 20:08
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I had fun with that stage, it was a nice change of pace and I didn't find it to be as annoying as the speederbike stages in X4 and X5. Heck, those don't give notices at all!
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Sep 23, 2014 20:11
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Srice posted:I had fun with that stage, it was a nice change of pace and I didn't find it to be as annoying as the speederbike stages in X4 and X5. Heck, those don't give notices at all! The Squid Adler bike section can kill you before the READY text disappears, and that's just hosed.
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Sep 23, 2014 20:34
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Hhahah I forgot about that. That stage starts off so bullshitty. Also X4 speedbike section was hit or miss. Especially when you had to go for the E Tank. 1. You over shoot the jump and miss the E tank. Get crushed because you forgot to jump. 2. Get the E tank, and then get crushed. 3. Get crushed. 4. Somehow avoid being crushed. 1 and 3 happens the most. 
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Sep 23, 2014 21:06
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skipThings posted:That sounds dumb and un-educated even for people who make video games for a living Coming from someone who has never been on the losing end of war, that is fairly funny.
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Sep 23, 2014 21:27
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Mordaedil posted:Coming from someone who has never been on the losing end of war, that is fairly funny. Than they should have desinged Wily after Opperman or someone else, not Einstein, put some more effort in your D&D zingers
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Sep 23, 2014 21:33
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I feel that jumping and sliding have a place, but that they need to be accounted for in design. The entries of the original series varied in how well they incorporated and accounted for additional player "verbs" in designing enemies and levels. Where these elements are part of the design, the game works-but where they aren't, it's better not to have them than have their inclusion feel incomplete. Of course, this is complicated by the multiple characters available in the most recent original series games. That said, Jump Jump Slide Fall was freaking terrible design, worse than MMU. MM8 generally had a very poor understanding of what mechanics made previous entries in the series enjoyable to play, ranging from graphic design to controls to soundwork. Someone in another thread was asking about a youtube video I found of someone doing perfect runs of MMIII DOS stages- the user has done one of them so far, and he's already clinically depressed. Good times. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 21:45
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Normally I hate enemies that just stall you by blocking like bitches yet at the same time I love Sniper Joes and Mets. It's contradictory.
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Sep 23, 2014 21:53
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skipThings posted:Than they should have desinged Wily after Opperman or someone else, not Einstein, put some more effort in your D&D zingers Who? Anyway, they've been brought up in a nation in an age after a war where they suffered a pretty nasty mark with one of the most terrifying weapons of the modern age, invented by one of the most brilliant minds of the west. Of course, they'd have some upbringing resentment towards both him and America. Ironically, Mega Man's popularity in the west might be why Keiji Inafune has become so extremely western supportive, going as far as to tell Capcom that they need to listen to the voices outside of Japan and eventually his leaving the company, feeling that his concerns fell on deaf ears. If I were to really simplify the flow of (likely, by extrapolation) events.
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Sep 23, 2014 21:53
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I think skipThings meant Oppenheimer. I don't think that would work very well, because Oppenheimer was a dapper fella.
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Sep 23, 2014 22:01
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Discendo Vox posted:I feel that jumping and sliding have a place, but that they need to be accounted for in design. The entries of the original series varied in how well they incorporated and accounted for additional player "verbs" in designing enemies and levels. Where these elements are part of the design, the game works-but where they aren't, it's better not to have them than have their inclusion feel incomplete. Of course, this is complicated by the multiple characters available in the most recent original series games. I think a good example of sliding working well is when you first get it, so to speak... Megaman 3. The fights with Protoman were practically training on how to use the slide effectively in combat. Fighting Protoman is annoying, the way he jumps and shoots. But once you master sliding under his attacks, it's a cakewalk. It's almost like Protoman is intentionally training Megaman on proper slide usage.
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Sep 23, 2014 22:01
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Discendo Vox posted:Oppenheimer Yes, that's the one also, seems like I summoned D&D, cool~
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Sep 23, 2014 22:06
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HJE-Cobra posted:I think a good example of sliding working well is when you first get it, so to speak... Megaman 3. The fights with Protoman were practically training on how to use the slide effectively in combat. Fighting Protoman is annoying, the way he jumps and shoots. But once you master sliding under his attacks, it's a cakewalk. It's almost like Protoman is intentionally training Megaman on proper slide usage. The Protoman fights probably were designed to train the player in sliding.
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Sep 23, 2014 22:12
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Blackheart posted:Normally I hate enemies that just stall you by blocking like bitches yet at the same time I love Sniper Joes and Mets. It's contradictory. Mets are adorable and go down in one hit. Sniper Joes are hella cool and do that jump that lets you get a few hits in. 
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Sep 23, 2014 22:15
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In this thread by association is Phantom Rift, inspired by Battle Network. It's good? It's not great. I feel like it has the potential to be good. I do have to wonder how many of them actually played EXE and to what extent, though.
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Sep 23, 2014 22:34
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Screaming Idiot posted:Master Weapons are pretty dull. I'll explain a little more when I get the chance -- I gotta clock in to work now. Lunch break, I'll elaborate my point now. Charged shots can justify adding more (and more difficult) enemies to a stage, and gives you a choice -- do you rapid-fire the enemy to death, or do you charge your buster and wait for an opening? Rapid-fire would do more damage overall, but charging allows to time to maneuver and release a relatively large amount of damage. If you're limited to the basic buster, it lowers your options. It might be more viable to use a Master Weapon, but energy drops can be fickle and weapons aren't always suited to the situation at hand. It was also mentioned that charged shots make the game too easy. Well, what's wrong with that? Aren't these games made for kids? If so many fans are clamoring to keep the charge shot, it should be available as a purchasable/findable power up for those of us that want to keep it, and "Easy Mode" should start with it. And if Capcom still wants to do DLC, then they should stick to adding bosses and stages instead of cutting features and making us pay for inferior versions of them under the guise of making it an "alternate character" (hello, Protoman). Mordaedil posted:Who? Actually, wasn't Inafune suggesting that Japan should start copying Western gaming styles, claiming that they could do them better? I remember reading his rant and feeling like it came off as slightly xenophobic, but I might be misremembering.
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Sep 23, 2014 22:48
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Screaming Idiot posted:Charged shots can justify adding more (and more difficult) enemies to a stage, and gives you a choice -- do you rapid-fire the enemy to death, or do you charge your buster and wait for an opening? It doesn't though. That isn't a meaningful choice in Mega Man terms because a charge shot is always the superior choice. The different boss weapons actually offer meaningful variety by having different attributes or weapon arcs. The only difference between pellet shot and charge shot is that the charge shot is significantly more powerful. There's no reason not to have one charged and little reason not to charge another one unless you're facing an enemy who is weak enough to die to a couple of pellet shots. The exception is in games where the charge buster sucks and then it has the opposite problem: It has no reason to exists and you're better off never using it. Screaming Idiot posted:It was also mentioned that charged shots make the game too easy. Well, what's wrong with that? Aren't these games made for kids? The appeal of Mega Man is in its interesting and often challenging platforming. Mega Man games may have been aimed at kids in the NES era but nowdays they are not. Kids have different expectations and a wide variety of choices and have shown a marked propensity towards games with low difficulty but also high freedom, like Minecraft, Disney Infinity or Skylanders. Aiming them towards kids would require a complete reconcept and redesign of the franchise, not merely making the game easier. (Battle Network, for example, was a much better attempt at appealing to kids than anything done since. In a different era Capcom would have been able to create a Skylanders-style Battle Network and make a lot of money.) Also considering you yourself decried "kiddy' graphics, it feels a bit weird to use "but it's for kids" as an excuse for your own personal desire for low difficulty. If you don't like high-difficulty games that is cool, but still. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 23:01
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Screaming Idiot posted:It was also mentioned that charged shots make the game too easy. Well, what's wrong with that? Aren't these games made for kids? If so many fans are clamoring to keep the charge shot, it should be available as a purchasable/findable power up for those of us that want to keep it, and "Easy Mode" should start with it.
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Sep 23, 2014 23:09
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:IIRC Shovel Knight people couldn't pay their musician until after release. Just to clarify, virt offered to work for free in exchange for other post-release payment options, which is something he does a lot for projects/people he likes. Dude's a workhorse, he's always got a million things cooking but the quality never drops, I have no idea how he does it. For those who haven't seen the Shovel Knight cost breakdown, check it out: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidDAngelo/20140805/222585/Digging_down_to_business_Shovel_Knight_Planning_and_Sales.php tldr: they estimate that a regular studio would have spent ~$1.5m on a game of that size, but they got the base game made on a ~$300k budget by working 24/7 for 18+ months for practically and/or literally no money. When you put things in perspective, it's easy to see why someone like IGA might be hesitant to turn to crowdfunding even when it seems like they'd have no trouble getting funding.
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Sep 24, 2014 00:16
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Lmao I'm Brazilian and I read that comic when I was like twelve and was amazed at how it was borderline hentai. Also robot cangaceiros were amazingly ridiculous and how the author kept ranting about MANGÁ NACIONAL.
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Sep 24, 2014 04:19
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The charge shot discussion never really goes anywhere. Yes, from a purely mechanical perspective it is at best redundant or just largely replaces the regular buster, and it cannot really be considered "good design". But (not to validate Screaming Idiot) sometimes it is worth sacrificing "good design" for something that just feels cool, which the charge shot does. There seems to be a trend among the "Every game must follow perfect design rules!" crowd to take out anything that doesn't meet some largely arbitrary standard of what constitutes "good design". Stripping things away isn't always the best solution.
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Sep 24, 2014 04:57
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chumbler posted:The charge shot discussion never really goes anywhere. Yes, from a purely mechanical perspective it is at best redundant or just largely replaces the regular buster, and it cannot really be considered "good design". But (not to validate Screaming Idiot) sometimes it is worth sacrificing "good design" for something that just feels cool, which the charge shot does. There seems to be a trend among the "Every game must follow perfect design rules!" crowd to take out anything that doesn't meet some largely arbitrary standard of what constitutes "good design". Stripping things away isn't always the best solution. I'd have no problem with the 'the charge shot feels cool' argument if it didn't seem to go hand-in-hand with "and robot master weapons suck anyway" arguments which seem to devalue or strip down one of Mega Man's most distinctive features in favor of having a bigger generic gun. Not everyone who likes charge weapons feel that way but it seems common enough that there's a connection. The reason why it is argued that the charge shot is not merely neutral game design (which a lot of cool stuff is) but actively harmful game design is because it does tend to devalue the other features in the game, and the robot master weapons in particular. Something feeling cool that has a negative impact on other elements of the game is a problem. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 05:01
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ImpAtom posted:I'd have no problem with the 'the charge shot feels cool' argument if it didn't seem to go hand-in-hand with "and robot master weapons suck anyway" arguments which seem to devalue or strip down one of Mega Man's most distinctive features in favor of having a bigger generic gun. Honestly I don't see how someone could hold both of those opinions at the same time, because robot master weapons can be really cool, it's just most of the time Capcom didn't give a poo poo and they sucked and had no use outside of boss weaknesses, and sometimes not even then. Like the correct answer here should be "Every option available to you should at minimum not feel deficient in killing basic things, and robot master weapons should all have some neat gimmick to them." If people get really bent out of shape that the charge shot has 5% more dps than regular buster shots or that machine gunning at point blank is 50% stronger than charge shots, they're dumb. But then people get bent out of shape about completely meaningless ratings in lots of games, so whatever.
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Sep 24, 2014 05:05
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I just wish the charge hum wasn't obnoxiously blaring. Just do what BN did, make a sound while it charges, play a noise when the charge is done, then just leave the colored orb there with no sound. No BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS drowning out the nice music.
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Sep 24, 2014 05:10
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chumbler posted:Honestly I don't see how someone could hold both of those opinions at the same time, because robot master weapons can be really cool, it's just most of the time Capcom didn't give a poo poo and they sucked and had no use outside of boss weaknesses, and sometimes not even then. Like the correct answer here should be "Every option available to you should at minimum not feel deficient in killing basic things, and robot master weapons should all have some gimmick to them." The thing is that basic pellet buster is not deficient in killing things. It's actually a fairly powerful weapon. It is just the equivalent of a pistol in a FPS: It's simple, basic, plentiful/unlimited in ammo but doesn't have any particular strengths or weaknesses. The charge gun effectively has the Halo/Dead Space problem of making your default weapon powerful without giving it the weaknesses that you'd expect from that, something that doesn't apply to even well-designed boss weapons because every boss weapon has limited ammo drops, even if in some cases they're merely theoretically limited. (Looking at you Storm Tornado/Metal Blade.) There are plenty of ways to make charge weapons good but they tend to have an actual cost to them. BlitzBlast posted:I just wish the charge hum wasn't obnoxiously blaring. Just do what BN did, make a sound while it charges, play a noise when the charge is done, then just leave the colored orb there with no sound. No BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS BTS drowning out the nice music. This honestly is a thing that I think everyone can agree on. There's no reason the buster should continue to make noise. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 05:10
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Yeah it's probably half the time why I don't charge in the old games. You either hear the constant humming cutting the music or you might get lucky and get a screen transition that actually cuts out the charging sound. Wish the 2nd one was actually an option.
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Sep 24, 2014 05:24
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ImpAtom posted:This honestly is a thing that I think everyone can agree on. There's no reason the buster should continue to make noise. They should go a step further and have it automatically charge like in Star Force.
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Sep 24, 2014 05:26
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