P.d0t posted:Ability scores and class skill lists did a lot to kill it. Having rangers/paladins/whatever use Wisdom for their riders implied that probably you might have +X Wisdom modifier to the detriment of any skills with other key abilities. They should have just given you the combat math and had separate skill math. They should have trashed the skill system entirely and built a new one where skills give you a greater control of your environment rather than showing how high of a hoop you can jump through on average. Once that happens, the skills, class skill lists, and ability scores become much more minor (though admittedly some skills would stand a good chance of getting trashed in the process of rebuilding). greatn posted:4e doesn't have classes. There's one class. 
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Sep 24, 2014 02:28
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The DMG is shaping up to be a monster.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:29
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My personal preference for attributes is to either remove them entirely or sever them from combat math, which largely has much the same effect.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:29
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greatn posted:4e doesn't have classes. There's one class. Could you clarify your position? Because it sounds like you're trying to pass off something incredibly, demonstrably wrong as something that's right.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:29
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greatn posted:Well, one of the two games has a LOT more dice rolling and numbers. I don't think there's any denying that. 4E has more fiddly numbers for sure, but I'm not sure it has more dice rolling. The kind of stuff you described would be part of discrete powers in 4E that would just work or work on a successful attack roll. Did you just let the martial characters do cool poo poo or did you make them roll a bunch of skill checks first?
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Sep 24, 2014 02:30
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4e has WAY more fiddly dice rolling, now if you'll excuse me, the fighter is about to make their 5 attacks and I need to make the attack and damage roll for each one.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:32
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homerlaw posted:4e is communism, which is probably why I liked it so much.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:33
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ProfessorCirno posted:With 4e Communism a true classless system exists where everyone can have fun and reap the benefits of their time and energy spent in the game. With 5e/3e Capitalism only the Spellcasting Classes can enjoy the game, but in turn can only run it so long as the "lesser" martial classes give up their labor for relatively nothing. The Spellcasting Class exists only as a leech, draining the fun of all other classes to keep itself fat and fed. The true answer is for martial classes to rise up and dispose of the spellcasters to bring about true equality. And so, Dark Sun was born.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:33
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ProfessorCirno posted:4e has WAY more fiddly dice rolling, now if you'll excuse me, the fighter is about to make their 5 attacks and I need to make the attack and damage roll for each one. Don't forget miss chance and the occasional critical confirmations if you crit on anything over a 20. ascendance posted:Too bad you live in America. seems like a lot of caster players like inequality. NachtSieger fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 02:33
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Oh no I have disadvantage time to roll literally twice the number of rolls. Uh oh, is that a big group of rats coming...?! Whew, good thing in 5e there aren't tons and tons and tons of fiddly dice rolling!
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Sep 24, 2014 02:35
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NachtSieger posted:Don't forget miss chance and the occasional critical confirmations if you crit on anything over a 20. 5e doesn't have miss chance or critical confirmations. It does have disavantage though which replaces miss chance.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:36
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greatn posted:5e doesn't have miss chance or critical confirmations. It does have disavantage though which replaces miss chance.  I thought for some reason Cirno was moving to 3.5e. I got my editions mixed up, I'm the idiot.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:38
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No lie, during the playtest the best way I found to play a barbarian was to take the feat lucky so I could have a reroll and advantage and roll 3d20 to hit when it was actually important. Otherwise it was classic, roll to hit oh I do nothing this turn let me know when everyone else is done.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:39
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It's not like in 5E sometimes the DM has to roll when a monster attacks, and sometimes the player has to roll when a monster attacks (depending on if it's considered a "spell" or not) and it's not like there are 7 entirely different types defenses to keep track of to survive these things. And it's not like these can be wildly swingy or anything, to the point that, even at low levels, there are some types of attacks that you are just guaranteed to not always get affected by.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:39
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greatn posted:4e doesn't have classes. There's one class. Something I considered the other day: There are complaints leveled against 4e that all classes feel the same. Now let's take into account that they do work the same to some extent, because all classes (or at least those at the start of the edition's lifespan) largely use the same AEDU structure. Compared to previous editions, this has been a very large homogenizing step. But why does the same power structure cause them to feel the same? All characters in Savage Worlds use the same structure of skills and edges, but they're not the same. All characters in Exalted use the same structure of motes and charms, but they're not the same. All characters in Fate use the same structure of skills, aspects, and stunts. But they're not the same. All characters in GURPS use the same structure. Same for Mutants & Masterminds. And Cyberpunk 2020. And Nobilis. And Burning Wheel. And Heavy Gear. And The One Ring. And- you know, I'll just stop now. You get the point. I don't think I've ever seen anybody complaining that all vampires in VtM feel the same. Ever. In 23 years of that game's existence. (I'm sure there's one or two people who think that way, this is the internet after all.) But give both the Fighter and the Wizard a daily power and watch the fireworks! Now every class is the same and a videogame! I sometimes wonder if maybe 4e is more popular amongst fans of RPGs, whereas 3e/5e is more popular amongst fans of WotC-era D&D.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:39
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With things like Advantage/Disadvantage and Superiority/Bless/Guidance/Resistance/Bardic Inspiration, D&D seems to be moving away from fiddly +/- modifiers and towards something more resembling a dice pool. I'm pretty ok with that, but I think Advantage/Disadvantage would be cool if applicable to other dice, too, and have something interesting happen if it comes up doubles.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:41
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greatn posted:4e doesn't have classes. There's one class. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0Y2hVe_bw
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Sep 24, 2014 02:43
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goldjas posted:It's not like in 5E sometimes the DM has to roll when a monster attacks, and sometimes the player has to roll when a monster attacks (depending on if it's considered a "spell" or not) and it's not like there are 7 entirely different types defenses to keep track of to survive these things. Seven defenses? No... it's more than that. Sometimes you need to roll a save, but sometimes you need to roll a check. Different bonuses apply to each. (E.g. Paladin Aura vs. Remarkable Athlete.) And sometimes the monster rolls 3d6 and compares it to one of your scores. Man, seven defenses... that would be way too few. Thank goodness 5e didn't dumb things down too much, right?
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Sep 24, 2014 02:44
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Sage Genesis posted:Seven defenses? No... it's more than that. Sometimes you need to roll a save, but sometimes you need to roll a check. Different bonuses apply to each. (E.g. Paladin Aura vs. Remarkable Athlete.) And sometimes the monster rolls 3d6 and compares it to one of your scores. Oh god, I just remembered this bullshit. The monster rolling 3d6 and doing a challenge or whatever the gently caress was just a pure display of bad game design front and center, it was almost comical, like a joke. But it's real. Edit: The glorious thing about it too was it was done by a like CR 1 or 2 monster and it ended up in an auto kill if the monster succeeded. It's just SO BAD.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:45
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ProfessorCirno posted:Oh no I have disadvantage time to roll literally twice the number of rolls.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:46
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I think the irony of 4e 'all classes are the same' stuff is that it's just reductionist. "In 3.X all classes are the same. You gain levels and unlock class features." Anybody who was a fan of 3.X would then look very sternly at me and say something like ,'really? You can't tell the difference between a wizard and a warrior'? and I would just smile to myself as I am a flower who that converts smug and irony into sugar.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:48
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I don't know if 4E would be better as a video game, but autotracking software would massively improve it. If you could drag Power onto Monster and have all the fiddly effects and damage calcs automatically update you'd eliminate almost every problem with combat length.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:50
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Hey does anyone have that link to the recordings of the 46 session 1-30 4e game?
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Sep 24, 2014 02:51
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The Bee posted:I don't know if 4E would be better as a video game, but autotracking software would massively improve it. If you could drag Power onto Monster and have all the fiddly effects and damage calcs automatically update you'd eliminate almost every problem with combat length.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:53
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The Bee posted:I don't know if 4E would be better as a video game, Maybe 4e would be better if it wasn't a video game 
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Sep 24, 2014 02:54
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Super Waffle posted:Hey does anyone have that link to the recordings of the 46 session 1-30 4e game? http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/the-new-world-a-4e-dungeons-and-dragons-campaign/
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Sep 24, 2014 02:54
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Video games are good, so being more like a video game can make tabletop games better.
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Sep 24, 2014 03:06
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For me it's pretty simple. D&D is the RPG I play when interesting and fun combat is a priority. It isn't always a priority; I do not play Mage: the Awakening because it's a great system for running swordfights in, or Call of Cthulhu because the investigators get to make tactically interesting choices when faced with cosmic horrors. But when I want engaging combat, D&D's pretty much the go-to. In every edition up to 5E I felt like D&D was probably the strongest RPG out there for that. That doesn't mean those editions were perfect, and each has soured on me over the years in various ways, but you can bet that they all (4E or otherwise) had enough mechanics there for me and my group to sink our teeth into. 5E is the first edition where I feel otherwise. Everything is just so simple that there are very few legitimate choices to be made. Pure spellcasters are probably the one exception, but that just frustrates me more because it emphasizes that the depth I'm looking for was an option for them to give to everyone, and they doled it out to only a few players at the table in the name of recapturing some old-school feel that neither I - nor anybody else I game with - identify with. My players and I can flavor our actions and RP in any system. D&D used to be the system we could rely on to do that in while we were all beating the crap out of some orcs. Still giving 5E a shot (I'll probably run this campaign all the way through HotDQ and Rise of Tiamat) but from what I can see its primary value at my table is greatly diminished or gone entirely.
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Sep 24, 2014 03:34
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goldjas posted:Oh god, I just remembered this bullshit. The monster rolling 3d6 and doing a challenge or whatever the gently caress was just a pure display of bad game design front and center, it was almost comical, like a joke. But it's real. That would be the Intellect Devourer! Rolling higher than (the Fighter's) Int resulted in draining all Int and rendering the player catatonic for brain-eatings. Wizard is too smart to have his brain eaten.
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Sep 24, 2014 03:45
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Kaizer88 posted:I have to agree with that. When you're past 9th level, your pc's power levels start becoming more like some episode of DBZ. Players of that level could slaughter whole legions of town guards. I think 5th edition is at least better with regards to the power difference between really high level things and 1st level schlubs ; Ac doesn't go much higher than 20, and proficiency bonuses don't go higher than 6. You'd still get the ridiculous HP bloat though. Not sure if you are being serious here or not? Yes players of 9th level can slaughter legions of town guards (level 1 minions) - that is by design. They are not meant to be taking on town guards at that level. Do you seriously think that a heroic fantasy roleplaying game should have a power spectrum of Dirtfarmer -> Slightly swole dude, and at the top levels should still be fighting the same things you did at level 1, just maybe a few more at a time? Mecha Gojira posted:Don't forget awful premade adventures. I'm sure half the reason we switched over to 5e was because our group was knee-deep in the Pyramid of Shadows. If you think the 5th edition pre made adventures are going to be any better, think again. In general pre made adventures for D&D (and to be fair most other roleplaying games) have always been average. There are some outliers, but generally they are never going to be as good as stuff you make for your group - by their very definition they have to be generic. I am lucky enough to have a really good DM who has had multiple adventures published for 4th edition in Dragon, and he says that the stuff he writes for Dragon is no where near the depth of hte stuff he runs for our group when we manage to all get together once a month at his house. Mr Beens fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 03:56
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The Bee posted:I don't know if 4E would be better as a video game, but autotracking software would massively improve it. If you could drag Power onto Monster and have all the fiddly effects and damage calcs automatically update you'd eliminate almost every problem with combat length. The size of the benefit would depend on the system, but there's only a handful of TTRPGs I can think of that wouldn't be significantly sped up by what you describe. I remember playing 2e and the DM made an excel sheet with macros to automate the rolling and math for the monsters, track hit points, etc. It made the DM's turn pretty short. It also raised the prep time, but not by much once the template was made. Kaizer88 posted:I have to agree with that. When you're past 9th level, your pc's power levels start becoming more like some episode of DBZ. Players of that level could slaughter whole legions of town guards. "Robert. E. Howard, [i posted:Weird Tales 24[/i], 6 Dec 1934"] loving DBZ anime bullshit in my D&D 
Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 03:59
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Huh. I didn't realize the Back to the Wall feat was a Conan reference. Nice.
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Sep 24, 2014 04:06
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AlphaDog posted:The size of the benefit would depend on the system, but there's only a handful of TTRPGs I can think of that wouldn't be significantly sped up by what you describe. I'll have you know in the end he lost, just as fighters should Speaking of Conan, it'll always make me laugh that instead of just giving fighters superhuman senses they had to randomly dip him into the Psion class and give him hilariously high ability scores. Proof you're not doing a good job at emulating actual heroic fighters.
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Sep 24, 2014 04:16
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Mr Beens posted:
Trust me, I don't think they'll be any better. I mean, we ran Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows, both in part written by one Mike Mearls.
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Sep 24, 2014 04:16
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The Bee posted:I'll have you know in the end he lost, just as fighters should Yeah, he did, and he also frequently leaves dead mooks strewn everywhere. It's not just Conan though. AD&D fighters get 1 attack per round per level of experience against all monsters of <1HD and all non-exceptional humans and demihumans* (which means 0-level dudes, which means town guards). A level 9 AD&D fighter is attacking 9 guards per round with little chance of missing, and almost guaranteed kills whenever he hits. I'm pretty sure even 4e's fighter doesn't approach that level of "gently caress these guys" when it comes to minions / mooks / unexceptional enemies. *AD&D PHB, page 25, under the table of fighter/paladin/ranger attacks per round. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 04:23
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AlphaDog posted:loving DBZ anime bullshit in my D&D
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Sep 24, 2014 04:30
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Mr Beens posted:If you think the 5th edition pre made adventures are going to be any better, think again. In general pre made adventures for D&D (and to be fair most other roleplaying games) have always been average. There are some outliers, but generally they are never going to be as good as stuff you make for your group - by their very definition they have to be generic. That's just the nature of the game really. The best stuff is almost always customized just for your group by a DM with way too much free time. Of the home campaigns that I ran, the two by far best were made mostly from scratch. They referenced a lot of setting material, but the actual play sessions were hand made. Both were 4e games too. I think WOTC actually has the right idea farming out the adventures to a third party. Though Hoard was hurt by having the game rules written and re-written as Kobold Press was trying to write their module. I don't remember enough about KOTS to tell if that was the case at 4e's launch too.
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Sep 24, 2014 04:45
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IT BEGINS posted:Considering the game has a participant (the DM) whose whole purpose is to use and bend and break the rules to make the game fun, it's kinda stupid to say 'hey! those guys over there had fun - it must be good!!' Nowadays I ask myself "am I having fun because of the rules, and not in spite of them?" as to whether or not an RPG ruleset is any good.
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Sep 24, 2014 05:12
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Since the MM is full of innate spellcasters and is only really useful for getting an idea of what you'd like a monster to do, what have people been doing in the meantime? I've been taking statblocks from the Basic DMG and making modifications based on what I think would be appropriate for my level 4 group. Funny enough, approaching the design process for these monsters with a 4e mindset helps a lot, and the swingy nature of 5e's combat makes the fights interesting, but also keeps them from dragging. e: By 4e mindset, I meant to say prioritizing mechanical function over fluff. "I want an enemy that will gently caress with the party's formation -> spider goblins that use webs to drag PCs" Glukeose fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 05:22
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ProfessorCirno posted:With 4e Communism a true classless system exists where everyone can have fun and reap the benefits of their time and energy spent in the game. With 5e/3e Capitalism only the Spellcasting Classes can enjoy the game, but in turn can only run it so long as the "lesser" martial classes give up their labor for relatively nothing. The Spellcasting Class exists only as a leech, draining the fun of all other classes to keep itself fat and fed. The true answer is for martial classes to rise up and dispose of the spellcasters to bring about true equality. If 4E is Communism and 3E/5E is Capitalism, then what economic ideology does the OSR adhere to?
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Sep 24, 2014 05:26
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