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Personally, I'd rather see that they implemented some sort of recharging shield system if they're going to do the three hits and you die kinda dealie. Have it work as bonus health, but it takes time to recharge back to full, and the delay is greater if its fully broken. Could still have it be three hits till you die once its down, but it'd give a bit of leniency and remove the need to heal every combat. Could even add some enemies with dangerous piercing abilities which bypass it partially or entirely as well. Though I'd also like to see more involved combat in general. Stuff with better animations than rotating a sprite's arm.
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Sep 23, 2014 09:38
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DeliciousCookie posted:Personally, I'd rather see that they implemented some sort of recharging shield system if they're going to do the three hits and you die kinda dealie. Have it work as bonus health, but it takes time to recharge back to full, and the delay is greater if its fully broken. Could still have it be three hits till you die once its down, but it'd give a bit of leniency and remove the need to heal every combat. Could even add some enemies with dangerous piercing abilities which bypass it partially or entirely as well. I'd be fine with the revamp works they are doing to shields... So long as you are still able to deal with this somehow. After so much time with shields being basically a waste of time and forgotten, a luckily timed find of a cool looking shield is all that saved me from a swift death of 19 trillion shots. It's like a violent "Where's Waldo", where is he? Oh, he's completely obscured by bullets and blocked notifications from them. Off in the mythical lands of Stable, NPC guns start off as a joke you can laugh about as you tank their hits (while screaming in horror at the sight of a skeleton bird spitting a stream of blood 5,000 times more deadly, per hit, in the very same dungeon). However, as you near the end, NPC's make up for a lack of quality with nonstop unrelenting quantity. 1 damage bullets add up fairly quickly when they are being fired at 200 rounds a second without slowing, from multiple angles. Add in the fact that attacking lowers your guard and let's them cram some free damage in there, well, ow. The shield changes the devs have talked about would cut out in about a fraction of a second in these circumstances, leaving you, once again, pretty hurting in the category of "Combat progression". Oh, just dodge/don't get hit? Hahahaha.. ha.. hah, that's a good one. Section Z fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 10:13
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Section Z posted:I'd be fine with the revamp works they are doing to shields... So long as you are still able to deal with this somehow. After so much time with shields being basically a waste of time and forgotten, a luckily timed find of a cool looking shield is all that saved me from a swift death of 19 trillion shots. Why are you fighting three dudes at once? I'm not being sarcastic, do you find there are a lot of dungeons where you can't control how many dudes you aggro? I haven't played in a long time, but in the versions I played in, I've found the huge camera view you get gives you a big advantage, in that you see the enemies before they see you, and you can very easily choose what engagements you want to enter and how.
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Sep 23, 2014 13:46
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I like how when somebody suggests doing something with shields in this outer space spaceship spaceman game, the first response goes to "ah yes, I'm looking forward to the upcoming changes to the sword n' board."
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Sep 23, 2014 14:17
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On a related note, are there any hi-tech shields in the nightlies as of yet? Seems like it'd be simple for shields from a higher tech tier to just be sci-fi force field shields. And what would be really cool would be if higher tech level shields could be full bubbles, and actually block damage from above/below/behind you, as well.
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Sep 23, 2014 14:29
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All of these complaints about damage and healing were neatly solved by the original armor penetration system. It really just needed some number tweaking to be perfect.
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Sep 23, 2014 18:22
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Section Z posted:I'd be fine with the revamp works they are doing to shields... So long as you are still able to deal with this somehow. After so much time with shields being basically a waste of time and forgotten, a luckily timed find of a cool looking shield is all that saved me from a swift death of 19 trillion shots. I mean some sort of personal energy shield that essentially acts as additional HP on top of what you already have. Only example I can think of off the top of my head is something like Borderlands. You obtain an energy shield, and it can absorb some damage and regenerate faster than your health does. But if it breaks you'll take more damage and can die easier. Just as something ontop of everything else to prevent players from needing to heal up all the time.
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Sep 23, 2014 19:59
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Devour or Fire posted:I like how when somebody suggests doing something with shields in this outer space spaceship spaceman game, the first response goes to "ah yes, I'm looking forward to the upcoming changes to the sword n' board." From your point of view, i suppose you could see it as a Sword and Bored kind of game
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Sep 23, 2014 20:16
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XboxPants posted:Why are you fighting three dudes at once? I'm not being sarcastic, do you find there are a lot of dungeons where you can't control how many dudes you aggro? I haven't played in a long time, but in the versions I played in, I've found the huge camera view you get gives you a big advantage, in that you see the enemies before they see you, and you can very easily choose what engagements you want to enter and how. Because they were all upstairs and came down after me. Also, screenshots. Hard to get a screenshot of the ridiculous situation when running away outside, where there would be no cover to exploit later, so I only lost MOST of my health instead of all of it when attacking them resulting in damage to myself as well. I got back to "playing smart" after the screenshot, but there was no smart play way to avoid the situation in the first place except for psychic powers. That and how do you "control aggro" when it's three dudes with guns all seeing you at once? Or two pairs of randomly generated animals seeing you at once, etc. "aggro control" isn't as easy vertically (or indoors) as it is walking across the open planet surface. Also, that was maximum zoom out. I know that base shot I put on the other page was max zoom out, and a quick eyeballing shows my apex dude isn't notably larger in this screenshot. But if you need to be at max zoom for the best 'advantage' to not getting hosed, something is wrong. I mean, from a normal standpoint your advice is good. But it just really doesn't apply here, and it should not be something that HAS to apply in a game like this unless you are trying to explore well above your weight, or some specifically fancy Dungeon. Not "I have Impervium armor and these are just some completely normal randomly generated enemies in the middle of nowhere". That and while the current subject is guns, see that critter dude outside? He would have just punched 1/4 to 1/5 of my health bar off, so even at their worst NPC guns are still no match for random wildlife. EDIT: I wonder what the Devs mean when they recently mentioned night spawns will be different than day spawns? Night spawns were ALREADY different (and roughly twice as strong, and twice as damaging. Which could result in literal one hit kills when night falls in the latest 'I'm supposed to be here for the next ore' area) back in stable. Then again, random wildlife is more powerful than the average boss summon back in stable. As are minibosses, I never met a miniboss that could not kill me in a single hit (who would drop complete garbage if I killed them after 'gently caress THIS' dirt abuse and 30+ top tier for the moment weapon hits). Impervium armor did not change this fact, though I'm sure the RNG has blessed many people with the ability to survive upwards of three miniboss strikes. EDIT: vvv I'll be honest. While I share the outlook of 'Caveman tier, what?' in the sense you got to work your way UP to being able to make an anvil now, smashing things with a big fuckoff hammer was always very satisfying. I suppose my poo poo luck with any and all gun drops, or enemy hitboxes being such that "Headshots" with a "I can only fire this twice with Impervium, but two hits will kill most random dudes" sniper rifle would simply pass harmlessly through a monster's face didn't help to lure me away from melee weapons, either. Section Z fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 23:20
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Devour or Fire posted:I like how when somebody suggests doing something with shields in this outer space spaceship spaceman game, the first response goes to "ah yes, I'm looking forward to the upcoming changes to the sword n' board." loving seriously Get outta here with that sword and shield poo poo Get a gun and have a fun
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Sep 23, 2014 23:22
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Dandywalken posted:loving seriously Nah it's good times to have your body cloned and your mind uploaded into it, have your warp-capable ship travel the breadth of the universe in about a minute, be transformed into pure energy and shot at a planet from orbit, then have your pure-energy body condensed back into a corporeal form without error, then you pull out a Iron Sword and swing it at a guy wielding a Turbo Plasma Rifle, and you know, you've got a pretty good shot of killing him first. Especially if you have the legendary "A Shield" that blocks plasma rounds
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Sep 23, 2014 23:27
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A two handed lightsaber that reflects lasers in all directions when you block with it would be pretty sweet. If something is too dull, make it glow a primary colour and buzz when you swing it. Edit: Actually, you need to make a series of special properties for swords, if the sword has the right modifier, a well timed block with stop a projectile, the modifier can upgrade into reflecting the shot back at the thing that shot it, then you need to put that modifier on crafted hylotl swords. Just so that I can go around killing space pirates with their own bullets and my hanzo space steel. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Sep 23, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2014 23:32
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Will anyone ever be able to make a 2D sandbox game where melee is actually useful without nerfing ranged attacks?
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Sep 23, 2014 23:36
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nerdz posted:Will anyone ever be able to make a 2D sandbox game where melee is actually useful without nerfing ranged attacks? Terraria, the gold standard of 2D games, eventually gave up, all the late-game melee weapons have ranged components to their attacks. Also the Starbound Skullhammer/Miner
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Sep 23, 2014 23:39
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Evilreaver posted:Nah it's good times to have your body cloned and your mind uploaded into it, have your warp-capable ship travel the breadth of the universe in about a minute, be transformed into pure energy and shot at a planet from orbit, then have your pure-energy body condensed back into a corporeal form without error, then you pull out a Iron Sword and swing it at a guy wielding a Turbo Plasma Rifle, and you know, you've got a pretty good shot of killing him first. Especially if you have the legendary "A Shield" that blocks plasma rounds It is almost as if the game is unfinished
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Sep 23, 2014 23:40
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Evilreaver posted:Terraria, the gold standard of 2D games, eventually gave up, all the late-game melee weapons have ranged components to their attacks. People should work more on gap closing moves, enemy hitstun and melee attacks with invincibility frames to make those work, in my opinion.
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Sep 23, 2014 23:48
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If we're wishlisting melee combat for games, I'd like to add more martial arts/grappling to some short range melee. Would love to be able to grab enemies and throw them into hazards, or pick one up and piledrive it off a cliff.
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Sep 23, 2014 23:55
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 A reminder that this is a thing
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Sep 23, 2014 23:56
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Make some melee weapons launch the enemy into the air in a 45* angle. So you can knock bitches off cliffs. Ideally, it would be a baseball bat.
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Sep 24, 2014 00:00
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I don't give a gently caress about the prevalence/flavor reasons behind melee or combat in general I just want it to be fun
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Sep 24, 2014 00:04
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IronicDongz posted:I don't give a gently caress about the prevalence/flavor reasons behind melee or combat in general I just want it to be fun That's because you have better sensibilities than the rest of us  Rotten Cookies posted:Make some melee weapons launch the enemy into the air in a 45* angle. So you can knock bitches off cliffs. Devs want to reduce Melee knockback against monsters (A survival factor that drew me to the Hammer...When knockback even worked worked, as well as it's raw damage), but I would so adore a baseball bat to go with the folding chair. EDIT: vvv nerdz posted:I think separating sections of the random attributes and color palettes for each biome to balance them would feel a lot better, like only enemies that spawn on ice biomes can do a freezing breath attack, magma enemies are immune to lava and attack with an array of explosive and fiery attacks and so on. It would reduce the randomness in a good way and let you know what to expect from each biome. I think I heard something about that, at least. Lots of cool stuff going on, and there are improvements being made to the game. I'm just very  with how combat/survivability is shaping up.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 00:07
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Section Z posted:Because they were all upstairs and came down after me. Also, screenshots. Hard to get a screenshot of the ridiculous situation when running away outside, where there would be no cover to exploit later, so I only lost MOST of my health instead of all of it when attacking them resulting in damage to myself as well. I got back to "playing smart" after the screenshot, but there was no smart play way to avoid the situation in the first place except for psychic powers. That makes a lot of sense, I hadn't considered the verticality aspect and that makes a big difference. Right now I feel the challenge of a one-on-one fight is pretty much fine, but considering how easily one gets into fights against 2-3+ enemies at once, I think I understand better why people are saying the combat is too crazy hard right now. Basically, if the game is going to throw you into fights against N enemies, it needs to balance combat for fights against N enemies, too. Also yeah the bandages suck but as far as I'm concerned, tiered bandages & food should be a perfectly good solution for that. Beds definitely need to function as percentage heals, though. However! Even with all of that said, that's all predicated on removing ore-drop on death. You can have either challenging combat, or a harsh death penalty, but you probably shouldn't have both. That just feels punishing. Oh, also what you said about zooming makes sense, it sucks to harshly punish the player unless they're playing on the furthest zoom. Section Z posted:EDIT: I wonder what the Devs mean when they recently mentioned night spawns will be different than day spawns? Night spawns were ALREADY different (and roughly twice as strong, and twice as damaging. Which could result in literal one hit kills when night falls in the latest 'I'm supposed to be here for the next ore' area) back in stable. Yeah, night spawns were crazy loving strong. I wonder if they mean that the night enemies will actually be meaningfully different, instead of just "day spawns cranked up to 11". Section Z posted:Then again, random wildlife is more powerful than the average boss summon back in stable. As are minibosses, I never met a miniboss that could not kill me in a single hit (who would drop complete garbage if I killed them after 'gently caress THIS' dirt abuse and 30+ top tier for the moment weapon hits). Impervium armor did not change this fact, though I'm sure the RNG has blessed many people with the ability to survive upwards of three miniboss strikes. Yeah boss summons were crazy garbage easy. I thought minibosses were a fun challenge, especially since the death penalty was so low, right up until I defeated them and realized they almost always dropped total garbage, like you said. They need better loot tables.
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Sep 24, 2014 00:17
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Interestingly enough, I think the biggest problem starbound has is the random monster generator. Thousands of combinations, all boring. Even if they keep adding new interesting special moves for the monsters, there's no rhyme nor reason for monsters in a certain biome or depth. After you've seen enough combinations It gets to a point where you not only don't care about the randomness, you barely notice it. Fighting against humanoids with their limited attacks for some reason feels way better. I think separating sections of the random attributes and color palettes for each biome to balance them would feel a lot better, like only enemies that spawn on ice biomes can do a freezing breath attack, magma enemies are immune to lava and attack with an array of explosive and fiery attacks and so on. It would reduce the randomness in a good way and let you know what to expect from each biome. nerdz fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 00:27
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nerdz posted:Interestingly enough, I think the biggest problem starbound has is the random monster generator. Thousands of combinations, all boring. Even if they keep adding new interesting special moves for the monsters, there's no rhyme nor reason for monsters in a certain biome or depth. After you've seen enough combinations It gets to a point where you not only don't care about the randomness, you barely notice it. Fighting against humanoids with their limited attacks for some reason feels way better. You know how in super metroid(an exploration heavy game, which is fun) there are creatures that cling to walls and climb all around in caves, there are hopping creatures, there are small creatures that are attached to each other in a mass which they detach from when shot, creatures which move in a group, there are creatures which are essentially floating mines, there are creatures that hide in lava or sand, there are creatures that produce light, there are creatures like moray eels which retract into the walls, there are creatures that block hallways, there are creatures who lose their wings upon taking damage, creatures who cling to the ceiling and divebomb you, creatures which roll around in armor, mouths attached to the ceiling, fish, antlion things which wait underwater to pull you in when you go near, etc. etc. etc. Meanwhile, Starbound has three enemy types-or, being generous, 6. Ground monster(melee and projectile), flying monster(melee and projectile), humanoid(melee and projectile). There may be many more technically, due to the randomization, but the differences are quite shallow. You're not gonna engage 2 different melee ground monsters in a significantly different way, or 2 different flying projectile monsters. The only exception to this is if you fight out of the depth your armor/weapon tier allows, in which case you get 1-2 shot instead of 2-4 shot. Even given how hard it is to make a procedural generation system that feels consistently fresh, it's really disappointing. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 01:31
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Magmarashi posted:It is almost as if the game is unfinished God drat, are you getting paid to do this or something?
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Sep 24, 2014 01:38
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Leafy Wall posted:God drat, are you getting paid to do this or something? This one of them ad hominem things I read about. Please stop attacking someone for stating a fact. Game isn't finished yet. Everything is subject to change. This is really simple, basic poo poo here. I know you all know better than this. I really wish you'd leave it at that and not prove me wrong, but I get the feeling you won't, and continue to be unhappy with a game that's just not done yet. 
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Sep 24, 2014 01:50
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The roadmap claims that basically everything except for quests and dungeon protection is 80% done or higher, so I don't expect the things I dislike to change much(and that's if they move in a positive direction instead of poo poo like more enforced tier grinding, no sand-surfing etc.) obviously that's assuming the roadmap is accurate but my point is, just because it's not finished doesn't mean all judgement is void
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Sep 24, 2014 02:02
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I don't think really powerful monsters are a huge deal in a game where you have mining abilities. It's pretty trivial to just dig a few feet under the surface, enough to avoid enviro penalties, and just work your way into upper tier ores. Ice planets were actually best for this since snow is easy and predictable to mine.
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Sep 24, 2014 02:32
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IronicDongz posted:The roadmap claims that basically everything except for quests and dungeon protection is 80% done or higher, so I don't expect the things I dislike to change much(and that's if they move in a positive direction instead of poo poo like more enforced tier grinding, no sand-surfing etc.) This is really the thing that's I'm whining about. There have been very few (if any?) positive changes, and a lot of negative ones that the dev team stands behind, and that's the trend I'm afraid of. It took our constant whining to get the Beamaxe to be upgradable because someone on the devteam was in love with slowass pickaxe mining, etc. E: also these changes haven't even happened yet, yes I know
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Sep 24, 2014 05:00
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Evilreaver posted:This is really the thing that's I'm whining about. There have been very few (if any?) positive changes, and a lot of negative ones that the dev team stands behind, and that's the trend I'm afraid of. It took our constant whining to get the Beamaxe to be upgradable because someone on the devteam was in love with slowass pickaxe mining, etc. I didn't even mind the old stable pick/drill speeds (even if it's not worth it to use a drill till you can go straight for the diamond), becuase that's all it was, SPEED. You could get anywhere and dig anything with enough time and patience but you still had an incentive to upgrade your digging tools. Especially if you wanted to dig up scenery for your own use, wallpaper is surprisingly tough. I just dislike the 'hahaaaa, now you can't even dig up Iron, silver, and gold until a copper pick'! and 'Hahaaa, because upgrading your manipulator will now be a thing, picks and drills will permanently break in exchanged for being  stronger.' outlooks.I also dislike the 'well if you hate it so much just learn 2 mod' outlook because that's just a lazy dodge regarding core timesink issues that are currently/stated as planned to be implemented. EDIT: If over half your playtime by the time you 'finish' your dig stuff progression, is spent grinding for/losing on death said progression, then it's just there to fill out "You will get X gameplay hours out of this!" numbers and nothing more. Reality might end up more generous, and I'd love to be wrong in my assumptions here, but with every change to digging so far making it merely more difficult except for being able to, at some points, permanently upgrade your manipulator, yeah... vvv I assure you if things turn out to be awesome (in my opinion), I will be vocally glad they turned out awesome and I worried for nothing. Though yes, that's a lot of dirt. Section Z fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 05:50
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Here, have a blog post about mining: http://playstarbound.com/september-23rd-digging-deeper/ I think I've never followed a game's development as closely as I have this one. The blog is a really good way of learning about the crazy amount of things that need to be worked out in relation to each other before something works right and is fun to play. In the start, I was hoping to have some more stable builds released, but as of now, I can kinda see why this is untenable. Mining in nightlies has been a chore - that's because it hasn't been balanced around the new progression system yet. I'm pretty confident we'll have a fun game to play some time later.
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Sep 24, 2014 07:23
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Literally Kermit posted:This one of them ad hominem things I read about. Please stop attacking someone for stating a fact. No, you're right, let's not state our worries and opinions in a thread the devs read because the game is not finished, if we just patiently wait they will read our minds and create the game we want because they can not do anything wrong like other human beings. 
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Sep 24, 2014 10:23
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Carecalmo posted:Here, have a blog post about mining: Yeah, they do an admirable job in keeping the blog updates coming. I cant fault them for that, at least.
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Sep 24, 2014 10:26
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Carecalmo posted:I think I've never followed a game's development as closely as I have this one. The blog is a really good way of learning about the crazy amount of things that need to be worked out in relation to each other before something works right and is fun to play. That's the nature of any complex systems-driven game. Players have been waiting on the next update for Starsector for ages now, but it's easy to see why: There's just so many new underlying and connected systems in development that pushing any of them out by itself would result in a pretty broken game. It might look cute and simple, but it's almost always far, far more complex than it looks.
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Sep 24, 2014 12:08
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So apparently pickaxes won't be craftable at all. They'll just be rare drops to be a bonus to your mining. That's encouraging; it means they'll need to make the matter manipulator a fun and balanced tool.
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Sep 24, 2014 12:59
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^^^ see, this guy gets it.Ahundredbux posted:No, you're right, let's not state our worries and opinions in a thread the devs read because the game is not finished, if we just patiently wait they will read our minds and create the game we want because they can not do anything wrong like other human beings. It'd be great if the thread treated the devs like human beings like decent fellow human beings should, and not be snide rear end in a top hat armchair game developers every goddamn post. If it isn't the devs, the threat turns in on itself and chases its own tail. That isn't remotely healthy. Every time we attempt to foster creative criticism in here someone helpfully reminds us last stable update was six months ago like that somehow means any loving thing in beta testing that has an alternate loving beta with nightly loving updates. No, I don't think the devs are perfect. I don't think being openly hostile to the devs helps. This doesn't mean the thread should be a Chucklefish hug-box. We're on the same page there. But inflating drama where there is none is the loving norm now, and if you think that is okay, I dunno. It is not okay, if you want anyone to take this seriously. Not directed at you, Ahundredbux. Worries and opinions are good. But that's not all what the thread has been doing. Edit: vvv him, too. Literally Kermit fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 13:03
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Evilreaver posted:This is really the thing that's I'm whining about. There have been very few (if any?) positive changes, and a lot of negative ones that the dev team stands behind, and that's the trend I'm afraid of. It took our constant whining to get the Beamaxe to be upgradable because someone on the devteam was in love with slowass pickaxe mining, etc. Guide to making a suggestion: 1. Claim that literally nothing has changed for the better 2. Assert that all negative changes are intentional and final 3. When suggestion is implemented, insult devs for implementing it Not saying that complaints about the game are invalid or anything, but the way they're commonly phrased in this thread (and elsewhere) doesn't seem like very constructive feedback.
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Sep 24, 2014 13:08
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Maybe they wouldn't have to put so much time into reworking the basic fundamentals nearly a year after it was released if they maybe used a little common sense the first time around.
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Sep 24, 2014 17:21
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Devour or Fire posted:Maybe they wouldn't have to put so much time into reworking the basic fundamentals nearly a year after it was released if they maybe used a little common sense the first time around. 2/5 the picture of nobody playing halfway was better
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Sep 24, 2014 18:22
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Devour or Fire posted:nearly a year after it was released You mean it's Starbound 1.0 finally? Oh wait, no. No it's not.
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Sep 24, 2014 18:28
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