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On the subject of interesting quotes surrounding the first Iraq war here's George H. W. Bush in 1998 explaining why he didn't topple Saddam:quote:While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome. I don't like to give Gerber H. W. Bush too much credit because the humanitarian cost of the sanction he placed on Iraq was massive and was almost entirely born by the regular people of Iraq. That having been said this is a pretty interesting quote. It really drives home just how obviously terrible an idea it was for the US to invade Iraq from a geostrategic perspective.
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Sep 24, 2014 22:52
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Helsing posted:On the subject of interesting quotes surrounding the first Iraq war here's George H. W. Bush in 1998 explaining why he didn't topple Saddam: It's even weirder watching the same sentiment come out of Cheney's mouth 9 years before he went ahead and did it anyway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w75ctsv2oPU
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Sep 24, 2014 23:01
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Helsing posted:On the subject of interesting quotes surrounding the first Iraq war here's George H. W. Bush in 1998 explaining why he didn't topple Saddam: Cheney explained it exactly the same way back in oh, '96 or so. Goes to show some wires got crossed in the intervening years. Edit: too slow
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Sep 24, 2014 23:03
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Berke Negri posted:Cheney explained it exactly the same way back in oh, '96 or so. Goes to show some wires got crossed in the intervening years. No wires were crossed. We were making it clear that, in the post-9/11 world, we would not tolerate perceived threats to our security, up to and including unilateral military action.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:20
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The word "perceived" is doing a lot of work there.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:23
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How the gently caress is the right wing able to dominate the discourse like they do? It's like every shithead right-winger took classes in manipulation and yet leftists are terrible at it as a rule.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:23
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SALT CURES HAM posted:How the gently caress is the right wing able to dominate the discourse like they do? It's like every shithead right-winger took classes in manipulation and yet leftists are terrible at it as a rule. Because here's a huge amount of power and money behind them and leftists almost by definition will never have that.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:25
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My Imaginary GF posted:No wires were crossed. We were making it clear that, in the post-9/11 world, we would not tolerate perceived threats to our security, up to and including unilateral military action. That Iraq somehow transformed into a threat of a nature unlike and more dangerous than in 1990 would indicate wires were crossed.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:27
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I just find it really hard to believe that they got to the point where "taxation is slavery" is a semi-widely-held and rarely questioned belief simply by shouting loud enough.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:28
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Joementum posted:The word "perceived" is doing a lot of work there. Isn't it? We don't care whether you're an actual threat, whether you have actual capability to end American existance; we care if you could be perceived as an unknown threat. Certainly puts Obama's current foreign policy into a sharper perspective. E: Berke Negri posted:That Iraq somehow transformed into a threat of a nature unlike and more dangerous than in 1990 would indicate wires were crossed. Iraq was perceived as a threat potential to American interests post-9/11 due to an American understanding of what we'd do, were we utter bastards in Saddam's position.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:28
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Theoretically leftists have a huge amount of power....the power of people, the power of labor. However that kind of power is crippled in the way that modern society is setup and that is by design. Large scale imprisonment, propaganda, disenfranchisement(both effective and literal), patronage systems, structural inequality, etc. Leftists can be good at messaging, the "99%" messaging was good, there's other successes, but part of the way you get messaging is media saturation and that's seldom going to work in our favor.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:30
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SALT CURES HAM posted:I just find it really hard to believe that they got to the point where "taxation is slavery" is a semi-widely-held and rarely questioned belief simply by shouting loud enough. People have been complaining about taxes forever; it's hardly a tough one to get out there especially when you have entire media empires with the political view of reducing taxes.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:31
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My Imaginary GF posted:Isn't it? We don't care whether you're an actual threat, whether you have actual capability to end American existance; we care if you could be perceived as an unknown threat. Very much so, though a certain news network and a certain political party have been wildly irresponsible this month by implying that there is a threat of ISIS coming across the US border.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:31
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SALT CURES HAM posted:I just find it really hard to believe that they got to the point where "taxation is slavery" is a semi-widely-held and rarely questioned belief simply by shouting loud enough. Public opinion is malleable to a depressing degree.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:31
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USA blowing up oil facilities Not terrorism
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Sep 24, 2014 23:33
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euphronius posted:USA blowing up oil facilities Terrorism's goal isn't to create shock and awe. ....hey wait a second
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Sep 24, 2014 23:35
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Joementum posted:Very much so, though a certain news network and a certain political party have been wildly irresponsible this month by implying that there is a threat of ISIS coming across the US border. The Tehran-Zeta-Daesh triangular bloc is a well known perceived threat to American National security, please stop dozing off during briefings. Edit: one of the more colorful creations of the Bush years was that of terrorist as international shadow operative commando, and not pathetic loners most have been in history Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Sep 24, 2014 |
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Sep 24, 2014 23:35
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Joementum posted:Very much so, though a certain news network and a certain political party have been wildly irresponsible this month by implying that there is a threat of ISIS coming across the US border. A certain political party has no tolerance for perceived threats. A certain political party has no tolerance for actual threats. There, summed up the fundamental difference between the two parties in America in two sentences. And thats why I work for Democrats.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:A certain political party has no tolerance for perceived threats. A certain political party has no tolerance for actual threats. Yeah, it's not like the Democratic front runner for the Presidential nomination voted in favour of the Iraq war or anything.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:43
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Helsing posted:Yeah, it's not like the Democratic front runner for the Presidential nomination voted in favour of the Iraq war or anything. Everyone got kind of crazy after 9/11 for awhile there, we're all very sorry world but we do think it's starting to get old to keep bringing it up.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:45
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Helsing posted:Yeah, it's not like the Democratic front runner for the Presidential nomination voted in favour of the Iraq war or anything. Not voting in favour of the Iraq war was, at the time, an actual threat to Democratic general candidates' reelection chances.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:46
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Joementum posted:The word "perceived" is doing a lot of work there. Avoid majorian's NATO thread- it's holding up the entire world there.
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Sep 24, 2014 23:51
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Mon copain Alhazred, je sera à Paris ce weekend. Où pourait-on trouve les meilleures et les moins cheres bandes dessinées? My pal Alhazred, I will be in Paris this weekend. Where could one find the best and cheapest French comics?
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Sep 25, 2014 00:20
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I remember in Vancouver my hostel was a few blocks from a SkyTrain station there was this comic store in between that had, on its front window, a figurine of some vampire teenager or something with her panties sticking up at the viewer  sad thing is, some gross nerd is probably going to drop a ton of money on it
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Sep 25, 2014 00:37
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SALT CURES HAM posted:How the gently caress is the right wing able to dominate the discourse like they do? It's like every shithead right-winger took classes in manipulation and yet leftists are terrible at it as a rule. By lying constantly so that opponents spend their time unpacking the lies instead of dominating the discourse.
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Sep 25, 2014 01:57
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Berke Negri posted:Everyone got kind of crazy after slavery was introduced to America for awhile there, we're all very sorry black people but we do think it's starting to get old to keep bringing it up.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:01
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All joking aside, the craziness from that has still yet to let up.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:02
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Berke Negri posted:All joking aside, the craziness from that has still yet to let up. It won't let up until America next faces a greater actual threat than perceived, perceived threats.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:It won't let up until America next faces a greater actual threat than perceived, perceived threats. >Initiate Krugman Xeno Invasion Protocol
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Sep 25, 2014 02:07
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Berke Negri posted:Everyone got kind of crazy after 9/11 for awhile there, we're all very sorry world but we do think it's starting to get old to keep bringing it up. its still happening.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:09
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Have you ever sat down and thought about how successful 9/11 was from the perspective of Bin Ladin/Contemporary Al-Qaeda?
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Sep 25, 2014 02:14
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We'll forgive you for going crazy over 9/11 if you stop asking the rest of the world to help you fix that clusterfuck you created in Iraq.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:14
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Berke Negri posted:>Initiate Krugman Xeno Invasion Protocol >Call Frieden >Ask Frieden "Will you testify before Congress on your trip?" >Xeno Invasion Protocol Level I Initiated E: Helsing posted:We'll forgive you for going crazy over 9/11 if you stop asking the rest of the world to help you fix that clusterfuck you created in Iraq. We will cease asking you to help fix clusterfucks when you organize an effort to fix them before we need to ask you to participate.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:20
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My Imaginary GF posted:We will cease asking you to help fix clusterfucks when you organize an effort to fix them before we need to ask you to participate. We did.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:33
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How did those fix the issues of the Iraq war? They didn't? You mean to say they were just protests without follow-up action to correct the root problem? Sounds awfully selfish.
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Sep 25, 2014 02:43
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Berke Negri posted:>Initiate Krugman Xeno Invasion Protocol Ozymandias was Right
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Sep 25, 2014 03:39
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The anti-war left did not do enough to prevent the Iraq War
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Sep 25, 2014 04:20
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zoux posted:Paypal is going to start taking limited bitcoin payments in certain circumstances so I don't even want to know how insufferable that community is being today i think the ppl making the same jokes non stop are worse tbh
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Sep 25, 2014 04:47
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visceril posted:Our judiciary is apparently filled with robots that beep-boop are unable to compute the spirit in which a law was written and would literally allow a dog to play basketball because the law does not specifically disallow it this is literally how common law works hope this helps. there's a few hundred years of precedents you may wish to read about. you do have to consider every aspect of how a law is stated due to the fact that lawyers exist and represent people with incentives to abuse any possible loophole. Zeitgueist posted:"Wow this article in the LA times on how cornrows are the new hot fashion among white women sure is problematic" proptip: make the complaint you have against the thing in the first place instead of using problematic as a placeholder. or you could say the thing is hosed up etc. or even just say has problems because problematic smacks of corporatemarketspeak Zeitgueist posted:I don't think there's anything passive about it. Though if you think that people should instead say "it's racist as gently caress" instead of "problematic", I hear you, thats more direct, but that's what most people follow it up with so idk yeah this is the problem with using it most of the time. "this article is problematic. it is racist" can be said muuuccch more succinctly. euphronius posted:Did Buckley ever go back to the main story line or is he still doing those dumb multi colored numbers players. i believe the comic is dead now??? which is good forbidden lesbian posted:that thread is old gbs but i thought it had died, finally. guess you can't always get what you want the FTC's official twitter account referenced an goon run bitcoin mocking website as part of official business this week euphronius posted:USA blowing up oil facilities standard war there, op
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Sep 25, 2014 04:47
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Nintendo Kid posted:this is literally how common law works hope this helps. there's a few hundred years of precedents you may wish to read about. wow zeitgueists post and your response might be quite literally impossible to read despite it being written in my native language, the likes of which i would contend i have a relatively strong command over
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Sep 25, 2014 04:50
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