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Tekopo posted:In the world of board-game wargames, I have managed to meet a few Wehraboos face to face and the funniest thing to do in their presence is saying anything remotely negative about their lord and saviour, general Rommel. They are incredibly easy to annoy and I avoid them if at all possible. I like bringing up the old "German tanks were overengineered and logistical garbage" card.
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Sep 26, 2014 19:15
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HEY GAL posted:Modern. Here it is, erryone read it. I remember you linked, a while ago, a book about French SS divisions and their place in popular knowledge or something like that. I checked the Amazon reviews and I wasn't surprised to find a lot of people being mad about it. Meanwhile, the Politically Incorrect History books have between 4 and 5 stars. 
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Sep 26, 2014 19:16
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Tekopo posted:In the world of board-game wargames, I have managed to meet a few Wehraboos face to face and the funniest thing to do in their presence is saying anything remotely negative about their lord and saviour, general Rommel. They are incredibly easy to annoy and I avoid them if at all possible.
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Sep 26, 2014 19:31
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AceRimmer posted:I'm curious what the proposed landing site was. Danzig? Memel? Konigsberg itself for some sort of tragicomic Dieppe raid version 0.5? He didn't propose a landing site because there wouldn't be an opposed landing. The British would disembark in Gdansk and march to the front.
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Sep 26, 2014 19:36
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ArchangeI posted:He didn't propose a landing site because there wouldn't be an opposed landing. The British would disembark in Gdansk and march to the front. Oh that is just precious.
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Sep 26, 2014 19:40
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Tekopo posted:In the world of board-game wargames, I have managed to meet a few Wehraboos face to face and the funniest thing to do in their presence is saying anything remotely negative about their lord and saviour, general Rommel. They are incredibly easy to annoy and I avoid them if at all possible. One does not have to read too many books to realize that post-France, Rommel was pretty much wrong about everything.
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Sep 26, 2014 19:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:What was it like being classmates with Winston Churchill? I'm pretty sure Churchill just loved random naval/amphibious sideshow operations for their own sake. Churchill probably never saw a stretch of coastline he didn't want to land some soldiers on.
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Sep 26, 2014 19:47
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Kemper Boyd posted:One does not have to read too many books to realize that post-France, Rommel was pretty much wrong about everything. He was a member of the inter-war military, a professional officer in an organization that plumped nicely for the Nazis based largely on "these guys will let us buy new toys." He faithfully served the regime all through the years when it systematically alienated a major chunk of the German population, culminating in stripping them of almost all legal rights. He dug a lot of the pre-war Nazi poo poo and was a huge proponent of using the Hitler Youth to drive more recruits towards the Wehrmacht and as an early form of basic training in general, to the point where even senior HJ leadership thought he was trying to over-militarize their organization. Let me say that again: Baldur loving von Schirach, as big a Nazi shithead as you will ever find, thought Rommel was taking it a bit too far with trying to introduce military poo poo into the Hitler Youth. HE SPENT THE LAST FEW YEARS OF THE 30s COMMANDING THE HITLER'S MILITARY BODYGUARD DETAIL. At no point did he ever give any indication of objecting to expansionist warfare or starting another World War. Rommel was pretty much wrong about everything before France as well. He might not be the worst person in Nazi Germany, but he sure as gently caress wasn't some kind of noble warrior trying to keep his hands clean and maintain his professional dignity in a bad situation. Rommel apologists are seriously the worst and almost always have some hosed up need to turn Nazi Germany into the good guys in their own little personal narrative.
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Sep 26, 2014 20:10
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Playing world of tanks and starting every match by saying Rommel was a war criminal will never not bring out at least one closest nazi every other game.
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Sep 26, 2014 20:46
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Cyrano4747 posted:At no point did he ever give any indication of objecting to expansionist warfare or starting another World War.
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Sep 26, 2014 20:50
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MA-Horus posted:I would say it's quite old. The Americans and French threw up earthworks and parallels at Yorktown, for example. Any pre-industrial siege is going to have some sort of proto-trench. The siege of Syracuse in Thucy's History of the Peloponnesian War has a great wall/counter-wall interplay going on complicated by a naval blokade. Lots of shenanigans, ends in a godawful massacre. Great stuff really.
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Sep 26, 2014 21:00
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Siege of Platea before that.
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Sep 26, 2014 21:37
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Pornographic Memory posted:I'm pretty sure Churchill just loved random naval/amphibious sideshow operations for their own sake. Churchill probably never saw a stretch of coastline he didn't want to land some soldiers on. In fairness to him, Antwerp and the Dardanelles were good ideas on paper that were simply beyond the capabilities of the Allies to execute properly.
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Sep 26, 2014 21:58
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:In fairness to him, Antwerp and the Dardanelles were good ideas on paper that were simply beyond the capabilities of the Allies to execute properly. Which makes them bad ideas. 
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Sep 26, 2014 22:04
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:In fairness to him, Antwerp and the Dardanelles were good ideas on paper that were simply beyond the capabilities of the Allies to execute properly.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:11
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Same reason Turkey is part of NATO now I guess. It's a strategically significant stretch of water.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:15
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Ofaloaf posted:How were the Dardanelles a good idea, even on paper? It's like the ghost of General McClellan possessed the Brits or something. In fairness to McClellan, the Peninsula was a great idea, and completely within the capabilities of the Union to execute properly. It just wasn't executed properly.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:16
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Ofaloaf posted:How were the Dardanelles a good idea, even on paper? It's like the ghost of General McClellan possessed the Brits or something. It would totally have worked if the troops had gone in at the start of the operation. There wasn't really an organised Ottoman army in the region when the Entende battleships first showed up. Of course then you have a bunch of battleships at Constantinople and you are praying that threatening to bombard it will take the Ottomans out of the war when really it probably won't. e: worst case scenario you've now trapped a bunch of battleships and their crews at Constantinople. PS. Getting Turkey out of the war opens up all the Black Sea ports, which is really helpful if you want to flood Russia with grain and guns. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Sep 26, 2014 |
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Sep 26, 2014 22:18
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my dad posted:Which makes them bad ideas. Yes, but not for the reasons everyone thinks.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:34
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dublish posted:In fairness to McClellan, the Peninsula was a great idea, and completely within the capabilities of the Union to execute properly.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:42
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JaucheCharly posted:Siege of Platea before that. That was more encircling walls encircling the encircling walls, which is also really  but it's not field fortifications trying to cross each other so the other guy has to go around it.Race to the... top of that hill, I guess. (Wikimedia isn't image leeching is it?
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Sep 26, 2014 22:45
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the JJ posted:(Wikimedia isn't image leeching is it? I think that some admin said that it is.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:50
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the JJ posted:(Wikimedia isn't image leeching is it? Linking to image URLs is always OK, but if you want to use [img] tags you should reupload to Imgur or Tumblr.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:51
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AceRimmer posted:This reminds me that alongside Operation Sealion, a Confederate seizure of Washington D.C. is the second favorite alternative history scenario that was highly improbably at best (immediately after Bull Run) and practically impossible afterwards. Any good links/articles on this similar to the one about Sealion? I think of it like this: at Gettysburg the Confederates use the entirety of their ordinance supply to support Pickett's charge. Aside from an emergence reserve it's all used up. Now say the charge is successful beyond all reason and the Union army is utterly broken - one Corps streaming back towards Washington, the rest being pushed East and North leaving Lee between them and Washington. Lee still doesn't have any artillery to attack Washington with. And he probably only has around 50,000 effective at this point.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:59
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the JJ posted:(Wikimedia isn't image leeching is it?
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Sep 26, 2014 23:03
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Alchenar posted:I think of it like this: at Gettysburg the Confederates use the entirety of their ordinance supply to support Pickett's charge. Aside from an emergence reserve it's all used up. Now say the charge is successful beyond all reason and the Union army is utterly broken - one Corps streaming back towards Washington, the rest being pushed East and North leaving Lee between them and Washington. Not after Gettysburg, but early in the war the Confederates just might have been able to take Washington with a surprise attack if everything went right. It's more plausible than a cross-channel Nazi invasion of England, anyway.
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Sep 26, 2014 23:19
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DC got a large garrison in early 1861 and fortification of it started just shortly afterwards. By Bull Run it was fairly comprehensively entrenched, and by the end of 1861 it was almost certainly the most heavily defended city in the world. Even if the CSA had won Bull Run in such a decisive manner that the AoNEV was completely eradicated (not realistic), taking the city still would have required a siege and the CSA didn't have anywhere near the manpower to surround and cut off such a large area. There really isn't any point during the war that DC was under any serious threat and quite honestly the North probably would have done well to let the CSA even try it.
bewbies fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 00:05
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100 Years Ago Outside Albert, the front is swaying rapidly back and forth as attacks and counter-attacks send everybody advancing and retiring at once; the Germans have the better of it, and as the day wears on they begin pushing the Frenchmen back towards Albert and the Somme. Meanwhile, their compatriots down south have worked out what's going on at St Mihiel, and begin pushing at the side of the salient, where the ground is also less helpful to the defender. It's hardly a quiet day, but it is a simple one; so let's catch up with Africa and work out what the hell's going on down there. Fair warning; this is going to take a lot of time. First, let's have a look at a map.  Colonialism, donchaluvit? The only thing to note that isn't immediately obvious from that map is that Zanzibar is British, although fat lot of good it did Pegasus. There are a relatively small number of soldiers in Africa (big total numbers, but spread out over a massive continent), and most of them are African, occasionally supplemented by the odd sub-unit of the colonial power's army. The basic tactical unit of the British Army is the battalion, but out in the Empire, battalions are used to despatching their four companies (~250 men each) to various far-flung locations; the local troops of the King's African Rifles operate in a similar fashion. (This, incidentally, is why a British company's commanding officer is a Major, whereas the rest of the world gives the job to a captain. When you're in Battalion HQ 8,000 miles from London, and C Company is 600 miles away from you with no communications more reliable than shouting really loudly, you need an experienced man to be Johnny on the spot if something interesting happens; organisational quirks like this is the sort of thing people are referring to when they point out that the Army was intended to be a "colonial police force".) So here's the interesting thing. In 1885, there was a conference in Berlin to And, for all the German sound and fury about creating a navy to rival the RN, there is precisely one German ship worth mentioning in the whole of east Africa. Her captain was well aware of the situations prevailing both in Europe and in Africa, and legged it out of Dar-es-Salaam on the 31st of July; the ship, of course, is Konigsberg. Even at this stage, everyone seems determined not to let whatever bullshit is going in Europe interfere with their safari arrangements. The German Colonial Office issues explicit orders to the Governor of German East Africa which basically amount to "we can't defend the coast, don't do anything stupid, get out of there and then defend the interior if you have to", which he dutifully and ostentatiously carries out. He orders Dar-es-Salaam closed to warships, and he removes both the infantry garrison and the colony's government a hundred miles inland. A collier ship is accidentally allowed to leave, certainly an oversight in the situation, and is soon intercepted and conducted back to the port by the Royal Navy (who unfortunately miss the departure of several smaller ships, all stuffed to the gills with coal). Everything appears to be going calmly. Meanwhile, Konigsberg strolls off and on 6th August captures and scuttles a British merchant ship. There are plenty of Royal Navy ships hanging around East Africa trying to think up ways to carry out the order "neutralise all hostile shipping in the area", and now they have something to do. However, the first order of business is to sail two cruisers to Dar-es-Salaam and give it a good kicking as reprisals for Konigsberg's actions. This is not entirely unexpected, but it infuriates the German military commander, an extremely Prussian Prussian with the annoyingly long name of von Lettow-Vorbeck. Things escalate, and a week later German units are buggering around across the border into British East Africa; meanwhile, Konigsberg is wandering around slightly aimlessly, partly looking for trouble, but mostly looking for coal. Dar-es-Salaam is now off limits, so she finds her alternative berth up the Rufiji and from there ends up raiding Zanzibar. (Apparently, the news of the raid reached Royal Navy headquarters at Simonstown at about the same time as news of U-9.) So now, we find British reinforcements steaming across from India, a large number of increasingly-belligerent German colonists volunteering for war service, some heavy skirmishing to apparently no great effect in Nyasaland and northern Rhodesia, and Konigsberg hiding out at Salale as Africa's Most Wanted. There's also a serious fault with one of her engines. This is already a slightly ridiculous theatre of war, and Konigsberg now makes a significant contribution to its ridiculousness. The offending engine needs proper, expert attention. The proper experts are in Dar-es-Salaam, and if the experts will not come to von Muhammad... A large number of ox-carts are appropriated from the locals; the engine is carefully disassembled, loaded onto the carts, and sent off on the hundred-mile journey north. Meanwhile, Ye Olde Coal Problem raises its head again, and discreet contact is made with Mozambique, a colony of still-neutral Portugal, to see if they're interested in a little business. However, someone at the Colonial Office has already been to the Portugese Embassy in London with a blank cheque, and literally bought up all the coal in Mozambique, just in case... Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 01:08
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bewbies posted:DC got a large garrison in early 1861 and fortification of it started just shortly afterwards. By Bull Run it was fairly comprehensively entrenched, and by the end of 1861 it was almost certainly the most heavily defended city in the world. Even if the CSA had won Bull Run in such a decisive manner that the AoNEV was completely eradicated (not realistic), taking the city still would have required a siege and the CSA didn't have anywhere near the manpower to surround and cut off such a large area. There really isn't any point during the war that DC was under any serious threat and quite honestly the North probably would have done well to let the CSA even try it. This, DC's garrison was the size of field army sitting in well prepared entrenchments. The only time it could have been taken was in the first few weeks of the crisis before any troops had arrived to garrison it and guerrillas had cut the rail lines in Maryland but this would require the army of northern Virginia to exist before Virginia seceded.
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Sep 27, 2014 01:40
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Trin Tragula posted:100 Years Ago
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Sep 27, 2014 02:47
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Pornographic Memory posted:I'm pretty sure Churchill just loved random naval/amphibious sideshow operations for their own sake. Churchill probably never saw a stretch of coastline he didn't want to land some soldiers on. Not true! There was one stretch of beach that old Winnie didn't want any part of and that he moved heaven and earth to try to avoid landing on. Normandy.
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Sep 27, 2014 03:24
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jng2058 posted:Not true! There was one stretch of beach that old Winnie didn't want any part of and that he moved heaven and earth to try to avoid landing on. Only because he wanted to do the dumb invasion of the Balkans he had drawn up on napkin 3 minutes before it was due, instead.
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Sep 27, 2014 03:36
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Rommel only got the reputation he did in Africa because the American ambassador or w/e was telegraphing everything the English were doing effectivly in the clear. So Rommel had the WW2 equivalent of wallhax. Once that leak was plugged he got his rear end kicked by Monty. That's another good one, saying that he was worse than a methodical and conservative English general really riles up the crypto-Nazis. 
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Sep 27, 2014 03:40
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Xerxes17 posted:Rommel only got the reputation he did in Africa because the American ambassador or w/e was telegraphing everything the English were doing effectivly in the clear. So Rommel had the WW2 equivalent of wallhax. Once that leak was plugged he got his rear end kicked by Monty. That's another good one, saying that he was worse than a methodical and conservative English general really riles up the crypto-Nazis. Abwehr wasn't the only one reading other people's mail. Remember Ultra?
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Sep 27, 2014 03:49
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bewbies posted:DC got a large garrison in early 1861 and fortification of it started just shortly afterwards. By Bull Run it was fairly comprehensively entrenched, and by the end of 1861 it was almost certainly the most heavily defended city in the world. Even if the CSA had won Bull Run in such a decisive manner that the AoNEV was completely eradicated (not realistic), taking the city still would have required a siege and the CSA didn't have anywhere near the manpower to surround and cut off such a large area. There really isn't any point during the war that DC was under any serious threat and quite honestly the North probably would have done well to let the CSA even try it. Raskolnikov38 posted:This, DC's garrison was the size of field army sitting in well prepared entrenchments. The only time it could have been taken was in the first few weeks of the crisis before any troops had arrived to garrison it and guerrillas had cut the rail lines in Maryland but this would require the army of northern Virginia to exist before Virginia seceded. I'm afraid this isn't true throughout the war - it was largely the DC fort garrisons that reinforced Grant to make up the tremendous losses in the Overland Campaign, to the extent that Early's Raid was a serious threat to at least enter the city, given the scratch force of invalids and clerks that manned the defenses until combat troops could arrive from the front in Virginia.
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Sep 27, 2014 05:21
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The Merry Marauder posted:until combat troops could arrive from the front in Virginia. Given the fact that pretty much all of them were locked in battle to keep Grant from advancing, that's a never gonna happen situation that would eventually spell doom for whatever unit tried it. Lee burned out his chances for doing anything of such nature permanently at Gettysburg. With the Mississippi gone and Federal armies moving into the deep south combined with Grant deciding there would be no retreats, only advance, the South simply couldn't make up the man power needed to check all that, let alone send anything to support some crapshoot invasion of DC, provided the thin garrisons still in DC didn't dwindle the numbers as they attacked to make it totally unfeasible. Every officer knew it, it's part of the reason Grant did pull troops from garrison knowing that such an attempt would be a suicidal and pointless attack of any unit that would just grind up men that couldn't afford to be lost on something so pointless. Early's attacks were just something to get headlines in hopes some country would still back them. SocketWrench fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 07:00
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Let's not leave everybody's second favorite Nazis general, Gunderian out of this. In addition to the whole bribe taking deal, the never disagreeing with Hitler about all the war crimes things, he also served on the Court of Military Honor that turned over their fellow soldiers over to the People's court. I've just noticed that his wikipedia page has been purged of all references to that, except for a template containing the names of all members at the bottom. All of the other members' pages go in detail about their involvement, but his doesn't even confirm he belonged.
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Sep 27, 2014 08:09
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Ask Us About Military History: Yes, Nazis actually were bad.
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Sep 27, 2014 08:15
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Monocled Falcon posted:Let's not leave everybody's second favorite Nazis general, Gunderian out of this. In addition to the whole bribe taking deal, the never disagreeing with Hitler about all the war crimes things, he also served on the Court of Military Honor that turned over their fellow soldiers over to the People's court. I've just noticed that his wikipedia page has been purged of all references to that, except for a template containing the names of all members at the bottom. All of the other members' pages go in detail about their involvement, but his doesn't even confirm he belonged. Just as a point of order, his name was Heinz Guderian, not "Gunderian".
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Sep 27, 2014 08:22
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mods, rename me General Goonderian please!
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