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Sober posted:the gently caress, really? no. There's a long blog post linked to a conversation between him and Leigh Alexander a few pages back, he and her had some disagreements. Bit of a far cry from full-on defending gender wage gaps. He's sort of a ding-a-ling, though, with what of his personality comes through on the GWJ podcast. Perhaps we can all agree that Phil Fish is an amusing train wreck with unsupportable facial hair choices?
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Sep 27, 2014 19:15
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Sober posted:the gently caress, really? If you're familiar with the wage gap rhetoric at all (maybe the men are just more qualified, the problem isn't our industry it's education, women are new to the industry etc) this blog post is pretty damning: http://shawnelliott.blogspot.com/2013/05/5913.html?m=1
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Sep 27, 2014 19:32
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doctorfrog posted:no. There's a long blog post linked to a conversation between him and Leigh Alexander a few pages back, he and her had some disagreements. Bit of a far cry from full-on defending gender wage gaps. He's sort of a ding-a-ling, though, with what of his personality comes through on the GWJ podcast. I think the disrespect Phil Fish gets is grossly disproportionate to anything he ever actually did, the few times he managed to speak in public without being bogged down in some overblown controversy he seemed like a bright, enthusiastic dude with tons of potential, and everything that happened to him for the sake of trolling someone sensitive (and especially later for sticking with Zoe Quinn against gamergate) is an absolute tragedy. That loving facial hair though, goddamn.
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Sep 27, 2014 19:38
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Al! posted:If you're familiar with the wage gap rhetoric at all (maybe the men are just more qualified, the problem isn't our industry it's education, women are new to the industry etc) this blog post is pretty damning: http://shawnelliott.blogspot.com/2013/05/5913.html?m=1 I think what he wrote makes sense. He's not saying that there should be one he's asking people to analyze the facts instead of lashing out with righteous outrage, as he puts it. He said that the source of that discussion used a general survey and didn't release specifics, so there isn't much you can learn from that. The examples he used are pretty bogus too - those statements those people made just don't make any sense. I think Shawn Elliot can be very sanctimonious at times but I don't think he's in the wrong here.
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Sep 27, 2014 19:50
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Jimbot posted:I think what he wrote makes sense. He's not saying that there should be one he's asking people to analyze the facts instead of lashing out with righteous outrage, as he puts it. He said that the source of that discussion used a general survey and didn't release specifics, so there isn't much you can learn from that. The examples he used are pretty bogus too - those statements those people made just don't make any sense. I think Shawn Elliot can be very sanctimonious at times but I don't think he's in the wrong here. I think this is his prima facie point but I agree with Leigh that the the ultimate conclusion of this tired old is until we gather all the facts (which I am not now nor have any intention of gathering myself) until we can even begin discussing this dog is to shut up the aggrieved until change is convenient. It's the typical argument conservatives use when they fear change: to discredit those who are raising a problem as an irrational mob.
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Sep 27, 2014 20:05
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It's also a collision in temperament, between someone who is not personally in a position of great urgency, and someone who wants change, is tired of waiting, and drat the torpedoes and TPS reports. "Woah now, let's look at the facts," just sounds like more stalling to the aggrieved, and their impatience is marked as shrillness by observers, and next thing you know, the argument is too piqued to go anywhere on a social scale.
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Sep 27, 2014 20:18
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I think because the industry is so hostile to its workers on aggregate that there's the latent hostility towards joining the 20th w/r/t employment rights because they are painfully aware of how fast the pie is shrinking and are afraid that any nod to diversity would threaten their already tenuous livings
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Sep 27, 2014 20:30
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Woffle posted:You know what tarnishes your employer's image, buddy? This nonsense. You don't understand: He's a pretty big wheel down at the YouTube factory!
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Sep 27, 2014 21:10
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TotalBiscuit really is gross human trash though. Do you hear me bitch boy???? Namesearch yourself... and live with it if you can.Tempo 119 posted:I think the disrespect Phil Fish gets is grossly disproportionate to anything he ever actually did Yeah, he has problems w/ emotional control but on the other hand he's not a fat idiot in a trilby or a libertarian internet journalist Like at least the things he lashes out at are trolls and the police and poo poo instead of women and homosexuals which would put him on a level above a lot of the people who virulently hate everything he stands for even if he hadn't actually made a neat little game
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Sep 27, 2014 22:29
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Cool, the Three Moves Ahead ep on Planetary Annihilation is out 
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Sep 28, 2014 03:50
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bobservo posted:You don't understand: He's a pretty big wheel down at the YouTube factory! Well, unfortunately he can invoke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbU4VRs2rro
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Sep 28, 2014 20:11
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Al! posted:I think because the industry is so hostile to its workers on aggregate that there's the latent hostility towards joining the 20th w/r/t employment rights because they are painfully aware of how fast the pie is shrinking and are afraid that any nod to diversity would threaten their already tenuous livings I still really like Shawn but he was on the wrong side of that argument. I think he comported himself well with Leigh, however.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:19
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Probably my favorite thing about Video Games Hotdog is Kevin's increasing exasperation with Zack's sign off.
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Sep 28, 2014 22:44
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Al! posted:Probably my favorite thing about Video Games Hotdog is Kevin's increasing exasperation with Zack's sign off.
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Sep 28, 2014 22:48
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doctorfrog posted:He's sort of a ding-a-ling, though, with what of his personality comes through on the GWJ podcast. Those are different Shawns/Seans, or did he become a regular since I stopped listening? Shawn Elliott was on GFW and that follow-up with Jeff Green and N'Gai Croal.
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Sep 28, 2014 23:01
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Al! posted:Probably my favorite thing about Video Games Hotdog is Kevin's increasing exasperation with Zack's sign off. He doesn't know what good is.
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Sep 28, 2014 23:35
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Osmosisch posted:Those are different Shawns/Seans, or did he become a regular since I stopped listening? Shawn Elliott was on GFW and that follow-up with Jeff Green and N'Gai Croal. It could very well be. I'm not good with legitimate celebrities, let alone figureheads in the video games criticism industry.
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Sep 29, 2014 03:31
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Osmosisch posted:Those are different Shawns/Seans, or did he become a regular since I stopped listening? Shawn Elliott was on GFW and that follow-up with Jeff Green and N'Gai Croal. Shawn Elliot is a potty mouth game journo who was erudite and witty enough to land a job making games. Pretty sure he calledTotalBiscuit gross. Sean Sands is one of the neckbeards from GWJ podcast whotends to make judgment calls on IP he has never touched or even read a reliable source, regarding. Pretty sure he hasn't done anything to do with TB Brut if he did, it would involve 1/3 of the piece involving how awesome it is to be a shithead on the internet despite getting cancer and have a million YouTube followers.
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Sep 29, 2014 03:41
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coyo7e posted:I think he is just super mixed up on Seans. It's this.
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Sep 29, 2014 03:42
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Al! posted:Probably my favorite thing about Video Games Hotdog is Kevin's increasing exasperation with Zack's Fixed But the best is when Zack says something so incredibly loving dumb and Kevin actually joins him in his loving dumb rear end shenanigans. Poor Riff can only stare and laugh. 
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Sep 29, 2014 05:04
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I hope this doesn't come off as a rant, but I'm going to try an articulate one of my problems with recent Idle Thumbs. Sorry if it sounds like I'm making GBS threads on Danielle here, but she's just the one that triggered this in my head as I was listening to the most recent episode. I do think she's a good, interesting addition to the cast, BUT... Generally there's a recent dearth of interesting conversation about a game. The cast is still funny, but to take an example: Sunless Sea. This is, I feel, a really interesting game where there's a lot to talk about, even if I'm not totally sure the Thumbs are going to be that into the aesthetic/lore side of it. As they mentioned, people have been hounding Danielle to talk about it for weeks, and when it finally came down to it, she basically just described the overall structure and said "it's cool/delightful" and that was that. Okay, if that conversation persuaded someone to try it out, that's great, but it's not really what I expect out of Thumbs. Maybe there'll be more discussion on it later, but it kind of hit me right then and there that they don't really discuss many games in-depth anymore, and I think Danielle in particular has been pretty bad at articulating why a game is interesting or worth talking about. When Jake brought up Sid Meier's Pirates I silently worded "YES" in my mind, since that's my personal point of reference for Sunless Sea, but then he instantly went "oh, no, never mind I guess not" or whatever. It's just frustrating when I feel they're often so close at getting some interesting discussion about a particular game going, but then it just fizzles out because no one else has played it, or the person in question fails to articulate anything noteworthy about it. I don't know, maybe it's just 'cause I have a pet horse in the Sunless Sea race or because they've brought it up so many times, but it just really bummed me out in this most recent episode 
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Sep 29, 2014 08:00
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I haven't got round to watching jeff's stream yet but I saw this. Are they other players?
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Sep 29, 2014 08:22
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agreed, even though i havent listened to the the most recent one i found it a little disheartening when a game's mechanics/setting was described like something from objectgamereviews.com and then capped off as 'it's interesting/neat' and that's it.
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Sep 29, 2014 08:27
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Jippa posted:I haven't got round to watching jeff's stream yet but I saw this. Are they other players? I've never seen Jeff Green's Dark Souls streams, but I guess he ran past the enemies standing right outside Mytha's fog gate, so when he beat her, they came rushing right in. Boss arenas are usually cut off from PVP.
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Sep 29, 2014 08:35
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Yeah it looks like he jumped into the boss fight instead of clearing those guys out (it's kind of annoying to do there) and then forgot/didn't know that they don't just go away so when the boss died and the fog cleared they just walked in and killed him. 
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Sep 29, 2014 09:01
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I get where you are coming from and I was also disappointed about the lack of discussion about Sunless Sea, a game which for me is probably my most anticipated game to see completed (although the early access version has quite a bit of content already). However, I think Danielle had two big things working against her: 1.) Nobody else knew anything about the game and therefore weren't able to follow to deep any line of inquiry. It is hard as gently caress to carry on a one sided treatise on anything, particularly if you haven't played a ton of it and in its current state it is very difficult to make inroads into Sunless Sea. 2.) Danielle seems to be so nervous about spoilers sometimes that she will avoid discussing a game altogether for fear of spoiling the story. I understand this because in her line of work she probably gets daily hatemail from people upset that she spoiled something in a review, such as how in Destiny you shoot dudes with a gun. That said, however, the most interesting discussions seem to happen when the spoiler rules are ignored and specifics are brought up. That said, Sunless Sea is a great game even in early access with potential to have the kinds of interesting emergent stories that the Thumbs love out of games. For example, I was sent out on a Sea Voyage by a mob boss I found myself indebted to to deliver a payment for a crate of human souls I smuggled into London earlier. I was told to come home after making the payment or not come home at all. The only problem was I hadn't discovered that particular island yet. So I loaded my hold with as much fuel and supplies as I could carry and pushed off into the darkness, steadily increasing my crew's terror, knowing that the more afraid they would get, the more likely something horrible would happen. I didn't let my men take shore leave on this island because the only bar there served weeping beer out of screaming cups, and I didn't imagined this would decrease their terror too much. Finally by the time I made land on that island and made a payment my crew were already quite terrified, but rather than take the long way around and make my voyage more costly, I would jump a gap at the risk of topping out their terror because I was quite certain I would make it. When I was two thirds of the way across one of the clay men I was carrying for servitude in London escaped my hold, killed one of my men and pushed their terror up to the breaking point. In a mutiny I had to slay most of them and so I limped home, at half speed to be greeted with a job well done and another offer I couldn't refuse. Anyway, I hope Chris gets a chance to play it so they can have a more robust discussion about the game. VGHD had a good discussion about it a while back that got me to play in the first place, so if you aren't already listening to it they put the names of the games they discuss in their show notes. PS: I hate how Steampunks have commandeered it so that every vaguely Victorianish thing is now Steampunk. One day someone will describe Dracula as Steampunk and my brain will melt. Al! fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 15:04
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ElMaligno posted:But the best is when Zack says something so incredibly loving dumb and Kevin actually joins him in his loving dumb rear end shenanigans. Poor Riff can only stare and laugh. Just finished the latest VGHD. I still find it hard to get over how someone as obviously intelligent as Zack is can be so dumb with videogames. Having Kevin painstakingly describe the mechanics of throwing a rock as a distraction in Hitman Go was incredible though, so maybe it's all worth it.
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Sep 29, 2014 17:41
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Gonna get this game now. Thumbs video game content has also seemed mighty thin lately because every single comment is caged in 'but I might be totally wrong' or 'its not for me, I suppose' because they're so overwhelmingly terrified of negativity. The most interesting conversions tend to stem from contention, and there just isn't any. This is why Steve is the best thumb. He's naturally kind of abrasive (in a good-natured way) and had to be convinced what you were talking about wasn't stupid.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:25
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Pasco posted:Just finished the latest VGHD. The best/worst is how everyone on that podcast thinks that Yoshi's Island is impossibly hard bullshit and couldn't get through much of it because of the difficulty.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:33
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Ultima66 posted:The best/worst is how everyone on that podcast thinks that Yoshi's Island is impossibly hard bullshit and couldn't get through much of it because of the difficulty. I still wanna see that joked-about idea for a stream from the Idle Thumbs episode where Zack guested and Yoshi's Island came up where you get one person who loves a game and one person who is just short of being morally opposed to the mere existence of the game in the same room and they play it together.
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Sep 29, 2014 18:45
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_jink posted:Gonna get this game now. I mean I could be wrong and all we need are more people who're unwilling to be shown as incorrect or mistaken, but claiming that a show is "overwhelmingly terrified of negativity" seems like a bit of a stretch. I personally find it kind of refreshing to listen to a group of people who all give a poo poo about the opinions and feelings of others, and am not offended by it nor do I see it as a fear of contention - where I'm from they call that "good manners".
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Sep 29, 2014 21:05
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coyo7e posted:Or the issue may not be with the shows' lack of contention but rather current media's utter reliance on dueling pundits when any subject is brought up as a point of "discussion". I think I get what he's really asking for which isn't contention but specificity. When you are in a contentious discussion you have to cite specific examples like "this game made me feel x about y because I was able to do z" instead of "this game is really cool and the graphics are awesome and I don't want to spoil any of the story so you should just play it" because you have to make an argument that anyone should be interested in what you are presenting. Of course it's hard with the huge taboo on spoilers to then have a discussion on something only one person has played, but I really wish that more podcast hosts would move the conversation along by pushing for more specifics.
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Sep 29, 2014 21:15
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Al! posted:PS: I hate how Steampunks have commandeered it so that every vaguely Victorianish thing is now Steampunk. One day someone will describe Dracula as Steampunk and my brain will melt. The writers of Fallen London have struggled with this since the game's inception but eventually acknowledged the Steampunk influences and that there are people drawn to the game because of it. One of the writers made a forum post addressing how the two genres are basically opposite sides of the same coin in how they deal with technology in social-economics. Steampunk is optimistic and technology makes life easier. Gothic deals with the unknowable and corruption. coyo7e posted:Or the issue may not be with the shows' lack of contention but rather current media's utter reliance on dueling pundits when any subject is brought up as a point of "discussion". It's more about the frustration of people talking about a subject they're not familiar with or comfortable in talking about but they do it anyway. The absolute worst thing a podcast can do is talk in length about a subject its not familiar with. If you have to preface your argument with "I think this is correct" then just stop right there, don't continue. Don't give out wrong information and end it with "but I could be wrong, you'll have to look that up." al-azad fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 21:21
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So I stopped listening to it a while ago (and also apparently they just stopped doing them a couple of months ago without saying anything because lol commitment), but Polygon's Besties podcast is coming to a close because everyone not named McElroy is leaving. I saw Justin talking about how he wants to start a new video game podcast a while ago, and they should just have Polygon license/co-sponsor MBMBAM episodes. Just throw in a mandatory 10 minute segment in the middle about which video games they all played that week and it'll be fine. Travis's opinions about video games can't be any worse than Russ's were.
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Sep 29, 2014 21:28
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al-azad posted:It's more about the frustration of people talking about a subject they're not familiar with or comfortable in talking about but they do it anyway. The absolute worst thing a podcast can do is talk in length about a subject its not familiar with. If you have to preface your argument with "I think this is correct" then just stop right there, don't continue. Don't give out wrong information and end it with "but I could be wrong, you'll have to look that up."  which Thumbs is supposedly disseminating.As for "if you have to preface with 'I think this is correct," you're doing your due diligence. It's much more egregious to believe oneself to be correct and not acknowledge that it could be the case that you're not 100% right. GWJ talks from a regular position of ignorance, doesn't acknowledge it, and doesn't look it up later to find out. Thumbs is not nearly in that category because they've got a Danielle on-board, who does tend to throw out submissive conversational defense measures such as "but I could be wrong, you'll have to look it up." Finally, if you shoot down every conversation by stating that anyone in the group is disallowed from participating if they aren't 100% up to date on all facets of the topic, then you kill most conversations entirely, or allow them to turn into diatribes - which aren't really satisfying, either. Most potential for comedy also comes from people who're not really entirely versed on the subject they poke fun of. coyo7e fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 21:42
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coyo7e posted:I can agree with annoyance/frustration about someone on a show being factually incorrect however, that wasn't what was said in the post I was replying to, where it was stated that "everything they say" is prevaricated with "it's not for me," or "I could be wrong," not anything about being factually incorrect. I personally would rather have someone state "well I may be off-base here, so you can check that," then having them NOT say that and instead be mistaken and come from a direction of absolutism. I haven't really seen any evidence of this "wrong information which Thumbs is supposedly disseminating. Fair enough. I'm not talking about Thumbs in particular but saying at the end of a conversation that you're not confident about what you just said is a personal pet peeve. For off-the-cuff conversations it's fine but if it's something like the topic of the show I expect more. If you're on a video game podcast you can expect to at least be asked "What are you playing this week?" and have more to contribute than "I'm playing XXX and it's fun I guess."
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Sep 29, 2014 21:48
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VDay posted:So I stopped listening to it a while ago (and also apparently they just stopped doing them a couple of months ago without saying anything because lol commitment), but Polygon's Besties podcast is coming to a close because everyone not named McElroy is leaving. I saw Justin talking about how he wants to start a new video game podcast a while ago, and they should just have Polygon license/co-sponsor MBMBAM episodes. Just throw in a mandatory 10 minute segment in the middle about which video games they all played that week and it'll be fine. Travis's opinions about video games can't be any worse than Russ's were. The Joystiq days of Chris Grant / Ludwig Kietzmann / Justin McElroy / Griffin McElroy are what got me into listening to podcasts in the first place. I really hope the bros do a games-centric one again. poo poo, I'll listen to anything Griffin is on.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:03
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Al! posted:I think I get what he's really asking for which isn't contention but specificity. When you are in a contentious discussion you have to cite specific examples like "this game made me feel x about y because I was able to do z" instead of "this game is really cool and the graphics are awesome and I don't want to spoil any of the story so you should just play it" because you have to make an argument that anyone should be interested in what you are presenting. Of course it's hard with the huge taboo on spoilers to then have a discussion on something only one person has played, but I really wish that more podcast hosts would move the conversation along by pushing for more specifics. yeah, this I don't want them to be rude to each other, I want contentious discussion because it shows a deeper grasp of the games discussed. If you get called out to defend an opinion you've got to pour way more critical thought into determining why you think what you do, a much more interesting discussion then 'heres some bulletpoints, game seems pretty cool, maybe I'm wrong?' I blame fear of negativity because as 3 game devs and a reviewer they've got to have these critical thoughts. Yet any strong options are instantly hedged and re-hedged because they don't want to poo poo on anything. This is noble, I guess, but does not make for terribly passionate discussion. You can hear it, too. Games talk gets so muted, then as soon as they decided to break the energy instantly rockets.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:05
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Ironically we're talking about Thumbs/Danielle wanting to avoid spoilers when the last episode of Thumbs has a massive spoiler for A Link Between Worlds during the mail segment. Just a heads up for anyone who hasn't listened, I guess.
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Sep 29, 2014 22:18
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VDay posted:So I stopped listening to it a while ago (and also apparently they just stopped doing them a couple of months ago without saying anything because lol commitment), but Polygon's Besties podcast is coming to a close because everyone not named McElroy is leaving. I saw Justin talking about how he wants to start a new video game podcast a while ago, and they should just have Polygon license/co-sponsor MBMBAM episodes. Just throw in a mandatory 10 minute segment in the middle about which video games they all played that week and it'll be fine. Travis's opinions about video games can't be any worse than Russ's were. I had no idea that Chris Plante left to work at the verge, but they literally couldn't find anyone else at polygon to fill in the podcast? Oh well I guess sometimes the besties was good and most of the time it was kinda bad. New York Giraffe rip
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Sep 29, 2014 22:20
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