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Improbable Lobster posted:Both the Dark Angels and Ultramarines unoffcially lead the majority of their successor chapters, Space Wolves ignore the limit, Black Templars are constant crusading which keeps their numbers from being audited and there's at least a couple other chapters that have similar loopholes. I'm not sure about the White Scars, Raven Guard, Blood Angels or Salamanders but I think the successors to the Iron Hands are very independent from the IH becuase ofthe whole competative clan thing they have going on. Fried Chicken posted:Blood Angels are barely 1000, they have nearly been wiped out 3 times and their flaw shows up more often in their successor chapters so they are rare and tend to be assholes who don't support the Blood Angels I haven't read the Blood Angel omnibi (by James Swallow, I think) since I've heard they're pulp by even BL standards, but didn't it feature them calling upon their successor chapters to help fight a Chaos plot?
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Sep 25, 2014 17:42
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I think the only real strike between BA and a successor is with the Flesh Tearers, who are basically always close to being marked for excommunicate traitoris.
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Sep 25, 2014 17:55
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berzerkmonkey posted:Yeah - sorry, I assumed that everyone was on the same page when referring to a chapter of Marines. 1000 SMs is the official limit, but you could have thousands of menials, aspirants, servants, whatever. I'm not sure if Scouts count toward the limit, or they are exempt since they aren't "complete" Marines yet.
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Sep 25, 2014 19:20
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Well, the Ultramar system is basically the Ultramarines' own empire. There's some teasing/foreshadowing of Guilliman for this in some of the Heresy books. I like the nods to that - it makes the Ultramarines a little more interesting.
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Sep 25, 2014 20:10
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SRM posted:Well, the Ultramar system is basically the Ultramarines' own empire. There's some teasing/foreshadowing of Guilliman for this in some of the Heresy books. I like the nods to that - it makes the Ultramarines a little more interesting. They are also one of the few Chapters where Space Marines may actually meet their own families at some point after the transformation. While not on the level of the Salamanders where they regularly interact with the community, but at as far as treating people like human beings there are far worse Space Marines you could run into. You see this in Know No Fear with many of the Space Marines being given secondary civilian billets to expand their expertise outside of the realm of war. Apparently even with the Great Crusade ending in failure Guilliman thought it was important that his guys spend some time hanging out with the normies. REAL MUSCLE MILK posted:I think the only real strike between BA and a successor is with the Flesh Tearers, who are basically always close to being marked for excommunicate traitoris. A few companies of Guardsmen get eaten, and everyone makes a big deal about it. Some people would count it an honor!
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Sep 25, 2014 20:57
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^ Yeah because that's not something that totally makes like the Flesh Tearers look like a bunch of Chaos Space Marines.
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Sep 26, 2014 01:58
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Pyrolocutus posted:I haven't read the Blood Angel omnibi (by James Swallow, I think) since I've heard they're pulp by even BL standards, but didn't it feature them calling upon their successor chapters to help fight a Chaos plot? The first one was about a schism in the Chapter. It was quite bad, so I didn't read the next.
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Sep 26, 2014 02:30
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Schneider Heim posted:The first one was about a schism in the Chapter. It was quite bad, so I didn't read the next. Wait what? I kept hearing the first one was the good one and the other was the bad one.
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Sep 26, 2014 02:44
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Sramaker posted:Wait what? I kept hearing the first one was the good one and the other was the bad one. I read it when I was relatively new to BL, and it was just okay. Then I started reading Abnett and ADB and it became bad in comparison. It was very cliched and kind of stupidly melodramatic (Rafen, the main character, has a brother named Arkio, who is better at him in everything, and Rafen constantly mopes about it). The Word Bearers enemy was a flat, Saturday Morning Cartoon villain.
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Sep 26, 2014 03:53
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Schneider Heim posted:I read it when I was relatively new to BL, and it was just okay. Then I started reading Abnett and ADB and it became bad in comparison. And those were its good points. Following up on the first novel is a mistake, the series quality goes off a cliff after that one.
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Sep 26, 2014 04:41
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Hiked up a mountain yesterday and read 'The Talon of Horus' from start to finish. I thought it was loving superb. I read Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles and I can absolutely see how ADB is using the same narrative structure and tone of voice for the narrator. Thought that the writing itself was excellent. Also really enjoyed another perspective on how the Chaos Marines are, as well as the Warp itself. There have been some complaints in this thread about Khayon, specifically with regards to how he goes on about the Dark Eldar woman. I can understand why that might annoy you, but you have to consider from where in his life he's telling the story. It's M41 and he's talking about his past with regret and longing. His recollections are tainted by rose colored glasses, distorted by the passing years. And as far as his power level goes, it never bothered me because it was enough to keep the story moving forward. Same as how power levels of anything in a 40k book vary. (This thread had a discussion re: Imperator Titans on that same subject.) edit: Just thought of something else regarding the power level thing. It's very possible that he's loving with his inquisitorial captors. I'll be very interested to see how ADB does with the rest of the series, having read the Warlord Chronicles. Where Arthur tried to foster brotherhood and union, he failed. By contrast, Abbadon is going to be ascendant. edit2: Also eager to see how ADB handles the daemon sword. Seems like it's a pretty good parallel to Excalibur. The Rat fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Sep 28, 2014 |
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Sep 28, 2014 19:09
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Argel Tal says "The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time" (or something like that). Lorgar writes it down. I know I should have read The First Heretic before Betrayer but holy poo poo I'm loving this book.
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Sep 29, 2014 14:52
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I just hope the endless preaching by our protagonist doesn't get old. While it is nice to see the Ruinous Powers portrayed in a rather less black and white context, you can only polish the turd so much, and just because our intrepid "hero" is personally above raping/torturing/enslaving whole populations, doesn't mean that isn't what Abaddon and his merry band of rape machines do on a regular basis. It is nice to see Abaddon all confident that he isn't merely walking down the same path as Horus and making the same mistakes, but honestly if Vengeful Spirit did one thing correctly, it shows that Horus(much like Abaddon) thought he was totally in control of the powers that had been given to him. I'd be pleased to see the end of the series being another prophetic "No man can master Chaos" message, because I'll still take that over the Night Lords series of "I have to skin children, because people never learn!!".
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Sep 29, 2014 22:56
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Out of all of the audiobooks that I have listened to as I type in numbers at work, Betrayer was my favorite. It was partly the writing, and partly the reading, but it really worked well. (Minus Magnus's voice, which was a bit nasely) By contrast, I am currently listening to A Thousand Suns, and the audio quality just isn't as good. That leads me to my question. Am I missing something, or is it just a lapse of judgement on the author's part, but was the Golden Throne a thing before the Emperor even left the Great Crusade? I ask because in "Know no Fear," one of the marines uses the phrase "throne knows..." and in "A Thousand Suns" lots of characters are invoking the Golden Throne despite the fact that the book establishes that the Emperor has just started the battle against the Orks and hasn't even left the crusade yet. Finally, am I allowed to ask questions in regard to trying to flesh out the lore of a homebrew chapter in this thread so I can see if it would be lore friendly/not insanely stupid of an idea?
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Sep 29, 2014 23:06
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I think the golden throne has always been what powered the astronomicon, just that the Emperor could run it remotely. And yeah ask away.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:18
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jadebullet posted:Out of all of the audiobooks that I have listened to as I type in numbers at work, Betrayer was my favorite. It was partly the writing, and partly the reading, but it really worked well. (Minus Magnus's voice, which was a bit nasely) By contrast, I am currently listening to A Thousand Suns, and the audio quality just isn't as good.  it's got a slow start but I hope it picks up. Betrayer and Know No Fear are my favorite Heresy books, bar none.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:32
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Oh, well that makes sense then. Anyway, I want you guys to let me know if this concept sounds stupid or doesn't make sense. My chapter is the Cathartes Aura chapter(Scientific name for Turkey Vulture. Also Cathartes, which is the family that Vultures belong to, also means purifier). They are an Ultramarines successor chapter and are Codex compliant, but unlike most chapters, actively add to the Codex as new tactics are created, and new foes are discovered, mimicking and continuing Guiliman's ritual of compiling and writing tactical doctrine. This allows them to adapt and learn from fighting threats that don't follow conventions that have counters in the Codex, such as Tyranids. The other ritual that breaks from the Codex is how they indoctrinate initiates, as well as how they view death. Marines are required to keep as accurate a record of their activities as possible. (I haven't fully fleshed out how they do this yet.) Anyway, when a marine is killed and his progenoid glands are extracted, one is used as the tithe, but the other is implanted into an initiate as usual. The difference comes during the initiate's psychohypnotic indoctrination. During this process, the previous owner of the gland's data records are used as part of the indoctrination, essentially partially erasing the identity of the initiate and replacing it with the thoughts, memories, and identity of all of the marines that had that gland before the initiate. Upon the completion of initiation and indoctrination, the former initiate is viewed and interacted with as if he were the previous marine as if they were just reborn into the body of the initate. As such, the only death that the chapter views as a death is if the progenoid glands are unrecoverable, which is viewed as a great tragedy. Edit: Just for clarification, they do not maintain the same rank as their predecessor, and they won't be a 100% exact copy of their predecessor either. jadebullet fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 23:44
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Kind of like an Aspect Warrior Exarch?
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Sep 29, 2014 23:52
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Yes, that is a good comparison, only not an actual gestalt of the previous souls of the predecessors like the exarch.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:59
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jadebullet posted:Marines are required to keep as accurate a record of their activities as possible. (I haven't fully fleshed out how they do this yet.) 
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Sep 30, 2014 01:20
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jadebullet posted:Oh, well that makes sense then. I'd maybe have it so instead they write constant commentaries on the codex, which itself is unaltered but also somewhat distant, sort of like the Talmud vs. the Torah.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:47
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Cream_Filling posted:I'd maybe have it so instead they write constant commentaries on the codex, which itself is unaltered but also somewhat distant, sort of like the Talmud vs. the Torah.
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Sep 30, 2014 01:49
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Both good ideas. That is a good point about the codex.
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Sep 30, 2014 02:03
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jadebullet posted:Out of all of the audiobooks that I have listened to as I type in numbers at work, Betrayer was my favorite. It was partly the writing, and partly the reading, but it really worked well. (Minus Magnus's voice, which was a bit nasely) By contrast, I am currently listening to A Thousand Suns, and the audio quality just isn't as good. I really liked the voice work in Betrayer. The same actor reads Vengeful Spirit but it's not quite as good. Angron's voice felt weird at first, but it grew on me, and I liked how he made the primarch's attitude of now giving two shits evident. Argel Tal's dual voices were also properly done. His delivery makes several exchanges stand out as either more meaningful or funnier than they were in the book. A personal favorite: Lotara: How many Evocati are there on the surface, my lord? Angron: A lot. ALL of them. I don't know!!
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Sep 30, 2014 03:10
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Yeah, Angron grew on me as well, the actor did a really good job with him. Combine that with the good writing and it really makes you sympathize with him and understand his motivation which goes beyond just rage.
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Sep 30, 2014 03:13
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Well all Marines have eidetic memories, so toss in some sort of Archeotech machine that they sit down with after battle and essentially pulls their memories out in a very Ghost in the Shell sense, and then have those memories implanted during the indoctrination. If you haven't seen Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, watch it, it might give you some ideas on how this works since it is big on tackling memories and what they mean to a person's identity. Such technology would be very rare in the 41st Millennium, but not proscribed in any sense. Hell, GITS is essentially the Adeptus Mechanicus's wetdream since it is all about the total replacement of the body with artificial parts.jadebullet posted:Yeah, Angron grew on me as well, the actor did a really good job with him. Combine that with the good writing and it really makes you sympathize with him and understand his motivation which goes beyond just rage. Don't cut him any slack, he is still a big loving baby.
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Sep 30, 2014 04:12
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Uroboros posted:Don't cut him any slack, he is still a big loving baby. Yeah, getting constantly tortured by implants in your head that you cannot remove make you a big baby. Angron is probably the most sympathetic of the Primarchs because you see him actually struggle against tyranny instead of effortlessly imposing his own will.
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Sep 30, 2014 04:17
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jadebullet posted:Marines are required to keep as accurate a record of their activities as possible. (I haven't fully fleshed out how they do this yet.) In Death of Integrity the Novamarines are fleshed out a bit and have an interesting way of doing this. They tattoo themselves over time as they perform noteworthy things so veterans basically end up with full-body murals. This might not work for your homebrew chapter, but it's another idea.
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Sep 30, 2014 05:16
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VanSandman posted:Yeah, getting constantly tortured by implants in your head that you cannot remove make you a big baby. Angron is probably the most sympathetic of the Primarchs because you see him actually struggle against tyranny instead of effortlessly imposing his own will. Except it's uncertain whether the Emperor is actually a tyrant or if that's just a projection of Angron's past created by his deranged psyche.
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Sep 30, 2014 06:20
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Uroboros posted:Well all Marines have eidetic memories, so toss in some sort of Archeotech machine that they sit down with after battle and essentially pulls their memories out in a very Ghost in the Shell sense, and then have those memories implanted during the indoctrination. If you haven't seen Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, watch it, it might give you some ideas on how this works since it is big on tackling memories and what they mean to a person's identity. Such technology would be very rare in the 41st Millennium, but not proscribed in any sense. Hell, GITS is essentially the Adeptus Mechanicus's wetdream since it is all about the total replacement of the body with artificial parts.
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Sep 30, 2014 06:38
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Isn't the Blood Angels memory thing the imprinted memory Sanguinius' death that seems to have become an inherent part of the geneseed (and one of the main triggers for the Black rage in 40K)? Angron is a figure of massive self pity and suffering. He's tragic because clearly his circumstances are massively against him, he suffered the agony of the Nails and got treated like crap by the Emperor for *reasons*. However that's pretty much where his character development stops, he never gets over losing his gladiator buddies and point blank refuses new companions. Hell he made his way through a good portion of the Terran veterans because they had the curesed meekness not to fight back when he attacked them as they came, one by one, to welcome their genefather. His legion feel no camaraderie towards him not just because of the Nails but also because he refuses to have any. Betrayer makes it clear that's pretty much the first time he feels anything but contempt or at best indifference to his own legion, let alone his brother Primarchs. The traitor Primarchs have all had rough deals but it's clear that it's also very much their personal failings that sell them out to Chaos. Apart from Fulgrim who apparently just really needed an excuse before getting himself a giant buttplug. Also regarding the homebrew chapter: The commentaries on the Codex thing sounds like a good way of handling it. I can't see anyone except particularly radical Ultramarine Chapter Masters having the capacity to make additions to the Codex Astartes without coming under some very unwelcome scrutiny from every other UM successor chapter around. Having an additional collection that includes commentaries on more general parts of the Codex and the wisdom of various marines on tactics for new situations or races could be a winner. As for the memory thing, what would happen in the case of progenoids being lost? Would the chapter then seek to induct a wholly new legionary finally? I mean there's no definite reason to since the memory thing is down more the psychoindoctrination than something in the gene seed. On the other hand would that mean that any new initiate would be using geneseed taken from a marine who had already supplied progenoids (so there would be two initiates with the geneseed from one original marine). How would that be handled? Likewise implanatation results in rejection in a number of cases, if the geneseed is rejected is that marine then gone from the record too? I guess I can see nitpicky lore details with the association of specific geneseed with the donor's identity that seems unnecessary. I would be a bit cleaner to just say that when a brother is lost their memories are brought up to be instilled into the next generation as another takes on their alloted task. MrNemo fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 15:57
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MrNemo posted:he traitor Primarchs have all had rough deals but it's clear that it's also very much their personal failings that sell them out to Chaos. Apart from Fulgrim who apparently just really needed an excuse before getting himself a giant buttplug. Fulgrim's fall is very much a result of his personal failings: Fulgrim is incapable of admitting that he might be wrong and is terrified of failure. He is a man for whom excellence is not good enough, he must have perfection and is never satisfied. All too easy for a daemon of Slaanesh to exploit and ensnare.
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Sep 30, 2014 20:44
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MrNemo posted:
There wouldn't be two of the same Marine running around because they would use any duplicates for the tithe. And yeah, if the geneseed is rejected it would be viewed as the soul, or whatnot, of the previous warrior preferring eternal rest or something like that. (Thanks for bringing that up, I didn't think about rejection) As for the progenoids being lost, if that is the case then the warrior is viewed as lost as well and the memories are added to the Hall of Honor. While they technically only need the memories and not the geneseed, it is more ritualized so they view the geneseed as being a vital part of the process. Fresh geneseeds (can they make fresh gene seeds, I forget) would equal a wholly new legionary who would begin the start of a new line of marine heritage. And feel free to be nitpicky. I like nitpicky because it helps flesh things out better. As for Angron, I like that it is a bit more than just him being full of rage due to the nails, and angry at the Emperor over being denied his final battle. I like that he disagrees with the Emperor's methods of compliance and likens it to what he was fighting against on Nuceria and that the only reason he fights for the Emperor is because of the nails. It is probably also the reason why he fought against his own captains and has such disdain for his legion since he probably just views them as tools to do something that he doesn't agree with, but has no choice in the matter.
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Sep 30, 2014 22:49
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Cythereal posted:Fulgrim's fall is very much a result of his personal failings: Fulgrim is incapable of admitting that he might be wrong and is terrified of failure. He is a man for whom excellence is not good enough, he must have perfection and is never satisfied. All too easy for a daemon of Slaanesh to exploit and ensnare. Let's not forget his buttplug lust.
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Sep 30, 2014 23:54
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jadebullet posted:As for Angron, I like that it is a bit more than just him being full of rage due to the nails, and angry at the Emperor over being denied his final battle. I like that he disagrees with the Emperor's methods of compliance and likens it to what he was fighting against on Nuceria and that the only reason he fights for the Emperor is because of the nails. It is probably also the reason why he fought against his own captains and has such disdain for his legion since he probably just views them as tools to do something that he doesn't agree with, but has no choice in the matter. This would all be very heart wrenching if his solution wasn't "murder everyone".
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Oct 1, 2014 02:12
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Uroboros posted:This would all be very heart wrenching if his solution wasn't "murder everyone". As if that isn't the solution for every faction in the universe, including the  good guys
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Oct 1, 2014 02:15
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JerryLee posted:As if that isn't the solution for every faction in the universe, including the I would think it is pretty clear that the Imperium holds the moral high ground. You don't have to go very far on the sliding scale to be above people who skin children for fun. It is cute when the Chaos characters trot out the false equivalency "Who are you to criticize me sacrificing entire planets to my Dark Gods!?" as if this is somehow the same as waging a war of aggression to force compliance.
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Oct 1, 2014 02:37
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Angron and his idiot savant brothers Perturabo, Lorgar, and Horus are the biggest pansies in the galaxy. Not one of them had the stones to actually confront the Emperor or ask why he made the decisions he did. Instead, they just moped around like a bunch of emo teens at a mall, until they woke up one day and decided to kill dad and their brothers. I don't buy any of of the sympathy for Angron. The big oaf was the biggest hypocrite (next to Mortarion*) of them all. As much as he complained of slavery and being forced to do the Emperor's will, he allowed and encouraged his own children to enslave themselves to the Nails. * Mr. I-hate-psykers following one of the Chaos pantheon and becoming a daemon prince is pretty rich.
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Oct 1, 2014 02:49
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Angron doesn't follow Khorne, mind. Khorne loves Angron, Lorgar set up the ritual to turn Angron into a daemon prince, Angron still gives no fucks and continues to wreck poo poo as he pleases.
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Oct 1, 2014 03:09
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Also, the idea to turn Angron to Khorne was inspired by some idiot Eldar pirate who saw a vision of the future and in trying to stop it, caused it to happen. Apparently Lorgar was too dumb to realize that a dude named Angron is perfect for the Blood God.
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Oct 1, 2014 03:28
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