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frankenfreak posted:7500,-€ Geldstrafe That is not useful for comparing it to the Freiheitsstrafe the prosecution asked for, though, due to the way the a Geldstrafe is calculated. I'm more interested in the number of Tagessätze then having to make blind guesses regarding the salaries of the policemen and whether or not they have to support relatives. (Also, BZ and taz even offer different crimes the court sentenced for. How hard can it be to just transcribe what a court said, journalists?  )
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Sep 25, 2014 12:40
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"Gewaltbereite Deutsche raus aus Deutschland" I always say. If they can't adapt to civilized society they have no right to be here.
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Sep 25, 2014 18:41
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I for one am still in favor of the good old "Gewalterlebnisparks" proposed by the APPD. Put all Nazis, and all would be Jihadis in a closed area and have god/thor sort it out. As a Bonus Point, demand for medicinal products should increase.
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Sep 26, 2014 06:06
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Mightypeon posted:I for one am still in favor of the good old "Gewalterlebnisparks" proposed by the APPD. Put all Nazis, and all would be Jihadis in a closed area and have god/thor sort it out. As a Bonus Point, demand for medicinal products should increase. I really hope all those different flavors of extremist shitheads never realize how similar they are and unite against us. Thank god for tribalism.
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Sep 26, 2014 18:20
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So how long until Ursula loses her job? And will the CDU/CSU lose any support with the voters as would be appropriate, since the Minister of Defense has been from either the CDU or CSU since 2005?
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Sep 29, 2014 16:10
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Haha, no. Noone cares about the Bundeswehr. Ursula *might* lose her job, but I wouldn't count on it tbh. It's not like the Bundeswehr has ever been in a good shape. I'm sure if I was searching for articles about its sad state, I could pull some from every decade since 1955. e: vvv I loving hate you, almost as much as I hate Franz-Josef Wagner  vvve2: "Mein Vater war in Weltkrieg II gewesen." Is German even his native language? loving hell. System Metternich fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 16:19
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Torrannor posted:So how long until Ursula loses her job? And will the CDU/CSU lose any support with the voters as would be appropriate, since the Minister of Defense has been from either the CDU or CSU since 2005? Funny you should mention that - I was binge-reading Franz Josef Wagner's column earlier today, and are you open-minded enough to consider that quote:Liebe Ursula von der Leyen, ?
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Sep 29, 2014 16:21
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System Metternich posted:Haha, no. Noone cares about the Bundeswehr. Ursula *might* lose her job, but I wouldn't count on it tbh. It's not like the Bundeswehr has ever been in a good shape. I'm sure if I was searching for articles about its sad state, I could pull some from every decade since 1955. Of course Ursula, with only one year at the helm, is not the main culprit for the state of the Bundeswehr. It cannot even be laid solely at the defense ministry, the Bundestag and the rest of the government shares the responsibility. But it's probably easier for Merkel to make her a scapegoat and get rid of a potential future challenger in the process.
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Sep 29, 2014 16:30
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There isn't really any point in making the Bundeswehr a capable fighting force at the moment even if you discount the anti-military sentiments in large parts of the population. Germany is surrounded by countries that are extremely unlikely to attack it, so a classical cold war army is not really useful. We also aren't big and/or stupid enough to think that Germany needs military forces ready to intervene around the world because there is not much for us to gain. The last few times we went along with international interventions the result was either non-beneficial to our interests (Afghanistan) or actively harmful (Kosovo). And even if we build up a huge military able to do stuff on its own, it is extremely unlikely that we'd get a net benefit from being able to pacify some remote locales.
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Sep 29, 2014 16:48
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Smirr posted:Franz Josef Wagner's column Ah, screw poor people, bunnies and women having sex, we need guns, now!
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Sep 29, 2014 17:01
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Randler posted:There isn't really any point in making the Bundeswehr a capable fighting force at the moment even if you discount the anti-military sentiments in large parts of the population. Germany is surrounded by countries that are extremely unlikely to attack it, so a classical cold war army is not really useful. We also aren't big and/or stupid enough to think that Germany needs military forces ready to intervene around the world because there is not much for us to gain. The last few times we went along with international interventions the result was either non-beneficial to our interests (Afghanistan) or actively harmful (Kosovo). And even if we build up a huge military able to do stuff on its own, it is extremely unlikely that we'd get a net benefit from being able to pacify some remote locales. Promising our allies to have a certain number of planes ready to intervene if Russia invades the Baltic NATO members (which is still pretty unlikely but much more likely than only a year ago), and then not having enough ready planes to honor that commitment is a problem. Meeting the spending targets mandated by NATO is simply common sense. If we are not willing to do so, we could always leave NATO. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 17:05
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Torrannor posted:Promising our allies to have a certain number of planes ready to intervene if Russia invades the Baltic NATO members but then we would be at war with russia, gently caress that
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Sep 29, 2014 18:06
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The SPD is so funny. Oppermann said to the Spiegel that Ursula should show her "management talent" by fixing the Bundeswehr without increasing the budget. Maybe the SPD lead Bundesländer can fix their deficits by showing "management talent" instead of crying for more money. Or lets start closing down bases we dont need in SPD leaning regions, they surely wouldn't mind those "management decisions". If Ursula were able to fix this situation legitimatly without an budget increase, she should become dictator for life.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:02
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The Real Foogla posted:but then we would be at war with russia, gently caress that If that happens we'd probably be proper hosed anyhow, so might as well roll to Paris before the Earth goes under.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:46
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Verteidigungsminsiter is basically a curse upon any politician, although de Maziere seemed to get in and out relatively unscathed (besides drones), probably since he's Mutti's best friend. I don't honestly know why the Bundeswehr continues to exist in it's current form, it's an absolutely terrible force that has little relevancy, and probably little competency as well. Today's Germany could be much better served by moving to a significantly smaller Heer (currently nearly 70,000, should be about 30,000) which should focus on very highly trained special forces, probably with a larger dedicated S&R and policing component. Air power should probably be a bigger concern, and with an investment in air power and some force projection (a carrier, deployment ships) Germany could take a better stab at no-fly zones and playing world police a bit more; maybe take a stab at settling down certain areas of Africa or something (CAR, Mali). Considering that the French are always pretty eager to run around in their neo-colonial empire and stomp out fires, I don't know why Germany can't get a larger interest in helping out with these missions as well.
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Sep 29, 2014 21:19
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Cingulate posted:crypto-fascists --- Landsknecht posted:Verteidigungsminsiter is basically a curse upon any politician, although de Maziere seemed to get in and out relatively unscathed (besides drones), probably since he's Mutti's best friend. Drones are also a topic that's more likely to get people riled up that are already against de Maiziere than conservatives. The current thing seems to be something that could basically have come up at any time. So I'm asking cui bono and to me it looks like it's a deliberate attack on von der Leyen who has also aquitted herself well enough at her previous jobs to have some pretensions on the big one. quote:Considering that the French are always pretty eager to run around in their neo-colonial empire and stomp out fires, I don't know why Germany can't get a larger interest in helping out with these missions as well. While I agree that the Bundeswehr should give up "territorial defense" as a core tenet (beyond what's mandated by NATO et al.), you'd have to spend money of this transformation. The most recent attempts at reform have shown how much money even the more hawkish parts of the political mainstream are willing to spend. Which is actually nice, since I abhor the idea of a significant increase of our defense budget (and the sense of entitlement that it will stay at that level), but it doesn't help making the Bundeswehr a force with a clear focus instead of
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Sep 29, 2014 22:43
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frankenfreak posted:For one, there's the lack of a (neo-)colonial empire to take care of. I don't think France would be too keen on having us as hanger-ons on mission that concern what they consider their own backyard. One of Germany's big problems is that all international clout seems to be based off of money matters. Beyond economic partnerships and international aid/development, there is really nothing, everything else is hanging on with the other big boys, in terms of international military presence I don't think you'd be hard pressed to argue that Germany currently doesn't have much more stature than Canada, Sweden, the Netherlands or maybe even Poland. Considering that Germany and it's predecessors were among the top military forces in Europe (and the world as a whole) from the eighteenth to twentieth centuries, it's kind of a shame (although not surprising) that Germany has basically turned into an anti-war nation that is content with simply selling weapons and jumping on the occasional bandwagon of a NATO or UN mission, after the other major NATO powers have already done the heavy lifting. Germany has the 2nd highest population in Europe and the largest GDP. While you're never going to see a nuclear Germany, I don't think it takes much imagination to see the potential of Germany to build up some serious force projection and then to go and make a name for themselves doing pseudo-humanitarian missions. No, the French probably don't want someone playing around in their precious empire of failed states around the world, but I'm sure if Germany had the means and the drive to go and solve some issues in the world (maybe help out in north kenya/south sudan/somalia) and assist in stabilizing some areas, there would be a lot respect, stature and prestige.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:15
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Hey Germans, I'm wondering what the opinions are on the German deployment to West Africa.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:17
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Obviously nobody really likes that because it doesn't directly affect us yet. But there is not a big amount of resistance either. Stuff has do be done.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:22
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No force projection for Germany, please. Thank you. Also more funds for the Bundeswehr. If not we can just stop having armed forces. Wouldn't make a big difference to the current situation.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:23
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Landsknecht posted:Considering that Germany and it's predecessors were among the top military forces in Europe (and the world as a whole) from the eighteenth to twentieth centuries, it's kind of a shame (although not surprising) that Germany has basically turned into an anti-war nation Thankfully, most of Germany besides for Franz Josef Wagner seems to see it like that, too. But congrats being in a boat with FJW I guess.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:27
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Landsknecht posted:Considering that Germany and it's predecessors were among the top military forces in Europe (and the world as a whole) from the eighteenth to twentieth centuries, it's kind of a shame (although not surprising) that Germany has basically turned into an anti-war nation
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Sep 29, 2014 23:32
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Landsknecht posted:Considering that Germany and it's predecessors were among the top military forces in Europe (and the world as a whole) from the eighteenth to twentieth centuries, it's kind of a shame (although not surprising) that Germany has basically turned into an anti-war nation that is content with simply selling weapons and jumping on the occasional bandwagon of a NATO or UN mission, after the other major NATO powers have already done the heavy lifting. I agree that it's a shame we're selling weapons to Saudi Arabia and Israel.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:42
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Cingulate posted:That's probably the wrongest thing I've ever read on this forum. There's no way I'm suggesting that war is a good thing for Germany, maybe a better thing to have written is that it's a shame that Germany is so reluctant to do anything internationally beyond strong words and maybe a little bit of economic action. UN peacekeeping/peacemaking missions are prettymuch a loving joke these days, mostly because the troops are usually coming from Bangladesh or India and are less competent than just about anything you can imagine. If Germany was to step up and lead UN peacekeeping missions in places like the DRC I'm sure you'd actually see successes, and less humanitarian disasters.
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Sep 29, 2014 23:54
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Landsknecht posted:Verteidigungsminsiter is basically a curse upon any politician, although de Maziere seemed to get in and out relatively unscathed (besides drones), probably since he's Mutti's best friend. I'm not trying to make this sound too harsh, but there's a bit of a logical break between "I don't know why the Bundeswehr continues in its current form (...)" and "Here's my 3-step plan to fix the Bundeswehr", especially when you close with "look at the french, why can't we be like the french?". I'm also not entirely sure if you're just unaware the french military expenditures are like twice those of Germany's GDP-percentagewise or that the armed forces are 50% higher per capita in active personnell, or if you just want Germany to have a foreign legion-esque hit squad to go around the planet kicking in heads.
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Sep 30, 2014 07:18
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Peacekeeping is on of those things that could probably be better handled by a joint EU force(if there will ever be any desire to do more in that direction). There are just not a lot of German interest we could protect with an army. So IMO it always boils down to: "But all the cool kid countries have big armies, they will laugh at us if we don't!"
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Sep 30, 2014 08:14
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waitwhatno posted:Peacekeeping is on of those things that could probably be better handled by a joint EU force(if there will ever be any desire to do more in that direction). Armies are useful for humanitarian missions. I wish Germany could double its troop deployment in West Africa right now.
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Sep 30, 2014 08:18
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Duzzy Funlop posted:I'm not trying to make this sound too harsh, but there's a bit of a logical break between "I don't know why the Bundeswehr continues in its current form (...)" and "Here's my 3-step plan to fix the Bundeswehr", especially when you close with "look at the french, why can't we be like the french?". France does spend a lot more, but they've also got a really sort of hosed system where they maintain a "global" empire of overseas territories, dependencies and failed states (Mali, Djibouti, CAR, etc.). I'm not anywhere near calling for Germany to try and do the same, but I do believe that the Bundeswehr, if properly reformed and funded, could play a bigger role in the world. Germany is 7th in the world for military expenditures but 21st by expenditures per capita, I think this could be bumped up a bit. In the last few decades there's been a few major genocides in Africa (Rwanda being most notable, Darfur is still going on and CAR is constantly in a state of chaos), and I really don't know why Germany couldn't commit to some more muscular humanitarianism. Everything that the Bundeswehr does is basically a piggyback mission, turning into "Oh look, America/France/Britain are doing a thing, don't worry, Germany is here too!" which is frankly embarrassing ( IMO a lot of the anti-war stuff is easily seen from the cold war experience; not only was Germany split down the middle and super-heavily militarized on both sides (by other nations), but in the wake of WWII and throughout the cold war there was little agency. Both Allies and Russians basically occupied the country and did what they wanted (especially the russians), and Germany wasn't given the chance to choose it's international course. I think that now's a time for Germany to stand up and start being an actual international leader, instead of pretending that all the poo poo surrounding the euro and various banks is international responsibility enough. Germany has the capability (and some of the will) to be an international leader, and I think it's time that this happens.
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Sep 30, 2014 08:22
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My Imaginary GF posted:Armies are useful for humanitarian missions. I wish Germany could double its troop deployment in West Africa right now. Germany could do a lot of good in Africa (even though the GIZ already does a lot). Help sort out ebola panic, maybe use some surveillance to stop poaching, keep the peace in Sudan. But lots of Germans still think army=bad, so nobody does anything. Hell, even France offered nuclear weapons, and the government said "no thanks" (the right answer), but the rest of the west wants a bigger German commitment.
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Sep 30, 2014 08:25
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Landsknecht posted:Germany could do a lot of good in Africa (even though the GIZ already does a lot). Help sort out ebola panic, maybe use some surveillance to stop poaching, keep the peace in Sudan. But lots of Germans still think army=bad, so nobody does anything. Hell, even France offered nuclear weapons, and the government said "no thanks" (the right answer), but the rest of the west wants a bigger German commitment. tough poo poo for the rest of the west I guess
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Sep 30, 2014 08:30
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The Real Foogla posted:tough poo poo for the rest of the west I guess That's not an attitude anyone likes to hear coming from Germany. In fact, avoiding that attitude is one of the contributing factors towards the pressure for Germany to be able to conduct foreign interventions.
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Sep 30, 2014 08:32
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Landsknecht posted:Germany could do a lot of good in Africa (even though the GIZ already does a lot). Help sort out ebola panic, maybe use some surveillance to stop poaching, keep the peace in Sudan. But lots of Germans still think army=bad, so nobody does anything. Hell, even France offered nuclear weapons, and the government said "no thanks" (the right answer), but the rest of the west wants a bigger German commitment. Again, why not do it through a EU force? Why do we need an independent all-capable military, when we are not an independent, all-capable country? Does Texas have a carrier battle group?
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Sep 30, 2014 09:04
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waitwhatno posted:Again, why not do it through a EU force? Why do we need an independent all-capable military, when we are not an independent, all-capable country? Does Texas have a carrier battle group? Someone explained one of the problems earlier (in this thread?): each country has its industry set up to satisfy the needs of its military forces. Forming a unified EU military would mean that suddenly 9/10s of that industry will not be needed any longer. Now imagine the lobbying and bickering behind the scenes to determine which country will set the standards for the new force (and will keep all those juicy jobs and income). It basically will not happen (at least not until there is a strong enough centralized government in bruessel that can just tell the member states to suck it up and/or offer some form of compensation). Nektu fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 09:18
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My Imaginary GF posted:That's not an attitude anyone likes to hear coming from Germany. Germans do. And things like this are a very good reminder of why we largely still don't trust our army. Landsknecht posted:Germany could do a lot of good in Africa (even though the GIZ already does a lot). Help sort out ebola panic, maybe use some surveillance to stop poaching, keep the peace in Sudan. But lots of Germans still think army=bad, so nobody does anything. Hell, even France offered nuclear weapons, and the government said "no thanks" (the right answer), but the rest of the west wants a bigger German commitment. German forces are already part of the UNMISS / UNAMID forces in both parts of the Sudan. Even if Germany was willing to commit more forces, under the UN mandate we're limited to 50 personnel.
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Sep 30, 2014 09:29
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waitwhatno posted:Again, why not do it through a EU force? Why do we need an independent all-capable military, when we are not an independent, all-capable country? Does Texas have a carrier battle group? Is Texas a country? No. Like it or not, the nation-state is still the ultimate foreign policy unit. The EU is not a nation,and like it or not, it never will be. Ceding military powers to the EU would be a mistake, and similarly powerful nations like Britain and France would never do such a thing. While there were many problems associated with the creation of Germany, never forget that it is our home, and wir sind ein Volk. Germany was created at a time when other large groups (the English, the French, the Russians) were united and had a say in international affairs, and we didn't. Even though many people still aren't proud to be German, it is not a bad thing. Even though many young Germans (especially left wingers) have bought into the idea of Europe wholesale, being European doesn't mean you aren't German as well.
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Sep 30, 2014 09:32
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Landsknecht posted:Is Texas a country? No. Like it or not, the nation-state is still the ultimate foreign policy unit. The EU is not a nation,and like it or not, it never will be. Ceding military powers to the EU would be a mistake, and similarly powerful nations like Britain and France would never do such a thing. And what, pray tell, makes you so proud to be part of the Volk? Is it the fact that our imbecilic austerity policies caused so much suffering that our boosted export rate was overshadowed by Greece's boost in infant mortality rates? Is it the fact that during our military adventures in Afghanistan our soldiers (when they weren't killing civilians by throwing bombs on fuel trucks) spent most of their time eating and boozing, to the point where the US and the UK had to tell us to get our poo poo together? The fact that we're supplying Schurkenstaaten with military equipment?
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Sep 30, 2014 10:47
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Sep 30, 2014 10:57
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botany posted:And what, pray tell, makes you so proud to be part of the Volk? Is it the fact that our imbecilic austerity policies caused so much suffering that our boosted export rate was overshadowed by Greece's boost in infant mortality rates? Is it the fact that during our military adventures in Afghanistan our soldiers (when they weren't killing civilians by throwing bombs on fuel trucks) spent most of their time eating and boozing, to the point where the US and the UK had to tell us to get our poo poo together? The fact that we're supplying Schurkenstaaten with military equipment? This post is still a little pro-Merkel, I feel like it isn't complete without a political cartoon of her literally stabbing babies in Greece. (Though I didn't know german armed forces could drink downrange, let alone drink like there's no tomorrow, that's eye-opening and pretty loving hilarious)
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Sep 30, 2014 11:08
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Ironically German beer is one of the few things I'd say you're allowed to be proud of 
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Sep 30, 2014 11:30
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botany posted:Is it the fact that during our military adventures in Afghanistan our soldiers (when they weren't killing civilians by throwing bombs on fuel trucks).. botany posted:The fact that we're supplying Schurkenstaaten with military equipment?
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