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Tree Goat posted:yes, with the understanding that "classics" doesn't mean "have much literary merit" in this particular genre There are a ton of people who'd disagree with you there. But anyway, Ross Macdonald fits the bill, too. One of the best mystery writers with a brain and soul.
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Sep 26, 2014 07:16
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OldTennisCourt posted:I love crime films and novels but I'd really like to read some of the best classics of the genre. I'm currently reading Hamett's Red Harvest, can anyone recommend some good classic Noir or any sort of crime/mystery novels that aren't airport fiction level garbage? I've been reading the Alfred Hayes recently put out by NYRB Classics found here. Both are great and Hayes had a really interesting life.
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Sep 26, 2014 07:23
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OldTennisCourt posted:I love crime films and novels but I'd really like to read some of the best classics of the genre. I'm currently reading Hamett's Red Harvest, can anyone recommend some good classic Noir or any sort of crime/mystery novels that aren't airport fiction level garbage? If you get a chance, check out Fantômas by Marcel Allain and Pierre Souvestre. It's a series about an evil man who kills and steals for fun and profit without any remorse. It was also a favorite of French Surrealist painters.
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Sep 26, 2014 11:11
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OldTennisCourt posted:I love crime films and novels but I'd really like to read some of the best classics of the genre. I'm currently reading Hamett's Red Harvest, can anyone recommend some good classic Noir or any sort of crime/mystery novels that aren't airport fiction level garbage?
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Sep 26, 2014 13:06
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OldTennisCourt posted:I love crime films and novels but I'd really like to read some of the best classics of the genre. I'm currently reading Hamett's Red Harvest, can anyone recommend some good classic Noir or any sort of crime/mystery novels that aren't airport fiction level garbage? Jim Thompson, David Goodis
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Sep 26, 2014 13:14
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Thanks for the suggestions! Moving to newer works, are Tna French's works worth a look? I read In The Woods and enjoyed it, I found the ending a bit eye rolling on first run through but I feel like she tried to be more cerebral and rise above the genre she was working within.
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Sep 26, 2014 13:17
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mallamp posted:Most books by le Carré are better than average (they aren't exactly crime stuff but same type of thing), but generally the gap between best crime novels and airport fiction isn't that big, genre is genre. LeCarre's first couple of books are pretty much straight up crime fiction with a slight espionage background. But in any case, the vast majority of his works are far, far better than typical "airport fiction" even though his stuff is sold in airports. Also there are a lot of crime novels that are far better than typical airport thrillers. Off the top of my head some great crime novels I've read lately: Day of the Owl by Leonardo Sciascia, The Man Who Watched Trains Go By by Georges Simenons, Three to Kill by Jean Patrick Manchette Earwicker fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Sep 26, 2014 |
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Sep 26, 2014 14:50
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Love Simenon, such a crazy guy.quote:Simenon was not a man to do things by halves. He moved house 33 times, wrote 193 novels under his own name and more than two hundred under 18 pseudonyms, produced 27 volumes of autobiography and at 74 claimed to have slept with ten thousand women, eight thousand of whom were prostitutes (his second wife later smallmindedly reduced the total to 1200).
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Sep 26, 2014 15:07
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OldTennisCourt posted:Thanks for the suggestions! Moving to newer works, are Tna French's works worth a look? I read In The Woods and enjoyed it, I found the ending a bit eye rolling on first run through but I feel like she tried to be more cerebral and rise above the genre she was working within. I tried reading that one and just wasn't feeling it. You should check out David Peace's Red Riding books. They're very well written and probably the best modern crime fiction I've read outside of James Ellroy, who he is similar to in style.
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Sep 26, 2014 16:49
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Probably been mentioned several times but can anyone recommend a reading list of important/major books of western civilization? If you have a suggested reading order please include that as well. Obviously there are a lot online but I wanted goon perspective on this.
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Sep 30, 2014 14:20
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Do you mean like the 100% classics in just literature or for every subject like philosophy, history etc.
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Sep 30, 2014 14:51
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ShaqDiesel posted:Probably been mentioned several times but can anyone recommend a reading list of important/major books of western civilization? If you have a suggested reading order please include that as well. Obviously there are a lot online but I wanted goon perspective on this. Unless you have Infinite Time that's a really absurd task to take on. Try reading The Bible and then report back on whether that was a lot of fun.
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Sep 30, 2014 15:00
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While reading the Bible isn't what I'd call "fun" it is in fact incredibly helpful in understanding a lot of western literature and art in general given the constant references to Biblical characters and stories that have dominated said art for centuries. But I do agree with you though that reading the entire western canon is kind of ridiculous. Not only due to length but due to what it leaves out. The bulk of it was created by a very narrow and elitist segment of the western societies from which the books come. That said, if that's how you want to spend your time here is Harold Bloom's western canon which is probably the stuffiest and most western take on it you can get.
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Sep 30, 2014 15:16
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Ras Het posted:Unless you have Infinite Time that's a really absurd task to take on. Try reading The Bible and then report back on whether that was a lot of fun. I did this as a teenager and it actually was a lot of fun, and it gave me a frame of reference for a lot of other art and literature that I draw on to this day. I heartily recommend it. (Just don't read it for the same reason I did, I was a snotty kid and I wanted to count contradictions or some dumb poo poo.)
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Sep 30, 2014 15:19
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Yeah no I've read the Bible too, my point was that it's a good indicator for whether you'll actually enjoy something like the Iliad or Aquinas or whatever, or whether you'd just be doing it for some kind of perceived intellectual credit.
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Sep 30, 2014 15:28
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Earwicker posted:While reading the Bible isn't what I'd call "fun" it is in fact incredibly helpful in understanding a lot of western literature and art in general given the constant references to Biblical characters and stories that have dominated said art for centuries. I was going to say this seemed surprisingly concise for a Western canon then realised it's part 1
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Sep 30, 2014 15:49
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I've never read the Bible.
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Sep 30, 2014 15:49
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I've been in the process of reading the Old Testament for getting on two years and I'm finally almost finished. I have a hard time believing anyone else has subjected themselves to this, especially for the purpose of just being snarky; it's been an incredibly arduous task. It takes hours just to read 20 pages.
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Sep 30, 2014 16:50
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There are lots of very good ~200-300 page academic summaries of Bible that tell you main points of each book and also add some useful commentary (what's the point of the story, was it written all at once or combined from different sources, what's the context, how has it been interpreted etc.), I'd recommend that especially for non-Christians rather than trying to read it all. (I've read it all)
mallamp fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 16:51
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Ras Het posted:Yeah no I've read the Bible too, my point was that it's a good indicator for whether you'll actually enjoy something like the Iliad or Aquinas or whatever, or whether you'd just be doing it for some kind of perceived intellectual credit. I don't think the Bible is necessarily a good litmus test for "do you like classics circle one y/n", though. The stories show up everywhere, but it's not written as literature at all and huge parts of it are painful in a way that most other classics aren't, esp. if you eliminate stuff like Aquinas that's basically theological commentary. The OT probably isn't a very good predictor of whether or not you'll be able to get through Zola, for example, even though they're both basically dynastic stories with a moral/philosophical theme.
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Sep 30, 2014 16:52
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HELLO LADIES posted:I don't think the Bible is necessarily a good litmus test for "do you like classics circle one y/n", though. The stories show up everywhere, but it's not written as literature at all and huge parts of it are painful in a way that most other classics aren't, esp. if you eliminate stuff like Aquinas that's basically theological commentary. The OT probably isn't a very good predictor of whether or not you'll be able to get through Zola, for example, even though they're both basically dynastic stories with a moral/philosophical theme. Right, but if you approach this project with the idea of finding "important/major books" in Western history, some of the least questionable choices would also be the most painful ones to read. Something like Zola (who I absolutely love) appears half way through the list as a footnote to Das Kapital. Like, to be clear here, I'm just underlining the absurdity of such a project.
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Sep 30, 2014 17:09
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The Doctor posted:I've been in the process of reading the Old Testament for getting on two years and I'm finally almost finished. I have a hard time believing anyone else has subjected themselves to this, especially for the purpose of just being snarky; it's been an incredibly arduous task. It takes hours just to read 20 pages. Tried to find a clip of Homer listening to Larry King read the bible but it's behind a paywall. Sorry.
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Sep 30, 2014 17:17
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The Doctor posted:I've been in the process of reading the Old Testament for getting on two years and I'm finally almost finished. I have a hard time believing anyone else has subjected themselves to this, especially for the purpose of just being snarky; it's been an incredibly arduous task. It takes hours just to read 20 pages. Which translation you use makes a huge difference. Find one of the ones that's more about the beauty and readability of the language rather than perfect literal accuracy and especially don't pick one just because it was the traditional English translation for centuries. e: Obviously these guidelines might change if you're reading it as a believer or as a student of history or whatever, but if you're approaching it as literature that's what I'd do. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Sep 30, 2014 |
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Sep 30, 2014 17:25
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The Doctor posted:I've been in the process of reading the Old Testament for getting on two years and I'm finally almost finished. I have a hard time believing anyone else has subjected themselves to this, especially for the purpose of just being snarky; it's been an incredibly arduous task. It takes hours just to read 20 pages. The New Testament is actually a lot more readable IMO.
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Sep 30, 2014 17:57
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Ras Het posted:Unless you have Infinite Time that's a really absurd task to take on. Try reading The Bible and then report back on whether that was a lot of fun. Yeah sorry I should have narrowed it down a bit. Thanks for the input everyone.
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Sep 30, 2014 18:11
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ShaqDiesel posted:Yeah sorry I should have narrowed it down a bit. Thanks for the input everyone.
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Sep 30, 2014 20:44
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Earwicker posted:The New Testament is actually a lot more readable IMO. Or if you don't want to put in the effort you can have James Earl Jones (  ) read it to you.
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Sep 30, 2014 21:23
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ShaqDiesel posted:Probably been mentioned several times but can anyone recommend a reading list of important/major books of western civilization? If you have a suggested reading order please include that as well. Obviously there are a lot online but I wanted goon perspective on this. There's obviously quite a lot of literature that would be elided by this approach, but if you really want to go in that direction, you could look at the volumes comprised by the Harvard Classics and the Great Books series.
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Sep 30, 2014 22:22
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Ras Het posted:Unless you have Infinite Time that's a really absurd task to take on. Try reading The Bible and then report back on whether that was a lot of fun. The Bible is incredibly fun to read, heretic
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Sep 30, 2014 22:52
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Sir John Feelgood posted:Homer, Plato, Virgil, The Bible, Dante, Chaucer, Cervantes, Shakespeare. I'd throw Moby Dick on here (Norton Critical ed. will help a lot), but mainly just so this isn't an empty-quote. This is the short list, doesn't make sense to read more until you've started here.
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Sep 30, 2014 23:14
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poisonpill posted:I'd throw Moby Dick on here (Norton Critical ed. will help a lot), but mainly just so this isn't an empty-quote. This is the short list, doesn't make sense to read more until you've started here. Boccaccio > Chaucer, Ovid = Virgil, Aristotle = Plato.
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Sep 30, 2014 23:19
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Please don't listen to anyone's ideas fof what you should read so you know the Western canon and just read books that are good in no particular order.
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Sep 30, 2014 23:30
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poisonpill posted:I'd throw Moby Dick on here (Norton Critical ed. will help a lot), but mainly just so this isn't an empty-quote. This is the short list, doesn't make sense to read more until you've started here. I prefer the clickhole edition tbh http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/time-i-spent-commercial-whaling-ship-totally-chang-768
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Sep 30, 2014 23:31
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Ras Het posted:Boccaccio > Chaucer, Ovid = Virgil, Aristotle = Plato. False, True, True but more boring. Tree Goat posted:I prefer the clickhole edition tbh 22 Things Only People Who've Served Six Years on a Whaling Ship Will Understand
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Oct 1, 2014 00:17
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Is Hemingway considered Literature? Cause For Whom The Bell Tolls goes full on Tom Clancy all the time. "Heart pounding lung burning bullet slapping bullet cracking dash up the hill."
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Oct 1, 2014 00:21
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Henry James was embarrassed about novels because a jock once found him in the A/V room reading Conan stories so when he got older he made up a rule that literature was only good if the characters in it had complex, fragile egos that were constantly wounded by girls rejecting them. Thus for the last one hundred years, people have pretended to only care about books that high school Freshmen hate to read.
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Oct 1, 2014 00:28
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White Phosphorus posted:Is Hemingway considered Literature? Cause For Whom The Bell Tolls goes full on Tom Clancy all the time. "Heart pounding lung burning bullet slapping bullet cracking dash up the hill." Depends on how you define "Literature". You're capitalizing it, so I assume you mean works that educated, informed, and/or well-regarded people tend to agree are of lasting importance to the human species. In which case, yes, Hemingway is often considered to be Literature.
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Oct 1, 2014 00:35
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poisonpill posted:Henry James was embarrassed about novels because a jock once found him in the A/V room reading Conan stories so when he got older he made up a rule that literature was only good if the characters in it had complex, fragile egos that were constantly wounded by girls rejecting them. Thus for the last one hundred years, people have pretended to only care about books that high school Freshmen hate to read. E/N needs a book agent
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Oct 1, 2014 01:02
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White Phosphorus posted:Is Hemingway considered Literature? Cause For Whom The Bell Tolls goes full on Tom Clancy all the time. "Heart pounding lung burning bullet slapping bullet cracking dash up the hill." Pretty sure if Tom Clancy wrote that line he would mention the manufacturer of the bullets and give a brief run down of how bullets work and also the specialized training Jordan had undergone in order to be able to dodge those particular types of bullets.
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Oct 1, 2014 15:22
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Sir John Feelgood posted:Homer, Plato, Virgil, The Bible, Dante, Chaucer, Cervantes, Shakespeare. Here is how I would advise someone to go about this - take this list and consider these works to be your foundation (you might add a work or two, but no one is really going to argue with this list on a fundamental level). I would first try to get a general sense of why these works are important. Read a wikipedia article, it doesn't matter, just get a good first pass. Now instead of viewing these works as a barrier that must be passed before you can move on to later or lesser classics, consider them as an ongoing, permanent project to be done alongside other reading. The first things I would prioritize are The Bible (but I don't think you need to read it cover to cover or anything like that), Shakespeare (make sure to watch, not just read), and getting a basic grasp on classical mythology (Bullfinch or Edith Hamilton will do, you just want some working knowledge. Make sure to make a note of what the primary sources for myths are, you're going to want to get into that eventually). At the same time I would just start reading some novels. Something from the 19th or 20th century, you can look at Bloom's list that someone posted a little ways up. You'll have plenty of reason to agree or disagree with Bloom when you are better read, but nothing on his list is going to waste your time. Pick something you've heard of, but that you might not normally choose to read. Try to find a copy that has lots of notes and a nice introduction. Oxford classics as a nice line, so does Barnes and Noble, there are others. Yes, you are going to miss something because you haven't read everything important that came before yet - but think of it more like building a web of associations. I don't think you have to be entirely linear here. Everything can always be re-read. The more you read, the more sense you will have of where you could go next, and you'll find that this is essentially a never ending process, the list of what you should read next will always grow and never shrink.
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Oct 1, 2014 22:20
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