|
I sincerely doubt that Bioware intended Morinth to come across as "The Gay Menace" if only because if Bioware wanted to do that they'd be way more hamfisted and less subtle about it (like we'd find out that Morinth exclusively preys on young women and finds men disgusting or something similar.) That said regardless of intention they did end up basically making Morinth "The Gay Menace", whether this was pure coincidence or a sign of the writers misogyny creeping into their work I can't say.
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 07:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:42 |
|
|
"Intended" isn't necessarily a particularly good word when analyzing problematic content. However, I think that if you trace back the source of the problem, it all comes down to space-vampire (which is already something with a lot of intrinsic connections to exotic and dangerous sexuality) being combined with space-lesbian (as the only obvious in-universe race suited for the role). The content doesn't draw direct inspiration from "gay menace" narratives, if that helps. The biggest issue with that interpretation is the victim's diary specifically talking about Morinth being a "girl" rather than, say, "an alien". I can't quite locate the blog post at the moment, but I recently read a rather lovely one about Bioware not really understanding how sci-fi allegories work. Or how to put any kind of subtle message into the medium. (Kind like how you occasionally get "Shepard is a girl?!" moments, even though it really should be "Shepard is a human?!") (Edit: I don't actually recall a lot of examples of the last point offhand, but I do remember the blog post in question listing quite a few in Bioware writing in general)
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 09:04
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:Representing all sexualities equally is not pandering to any one sexuality. And as Mass Effect does not represent all sexualities equally it's even more not-pandering. It's entirely pandering when it's in response to people bloo-hooing on the Bioware forums and the various social media hellscapes that the writers didn't bolt on an opportunity for male Shep to get his homoeroticism on, and that it's somehow an obligation on them to add this in for the <1% of the fanbase that would care in any way. It's not done for the benefit of the gameplay or the narrative, it's done purely as an indulgence for a tiny minority of people with nothing better to complain about, and maybe some good PR. Which is fine, if that's what Bioware want to do, but you can't applaud that behaviour and then criticize them for spending yet more time writing a whole bunch of dialogue about how exactly you gently caress a Teenage Mutant Gypsy Chicken without giving her lupus. Lt. Danger posted:
I had to double-check that you'd edited that quote and I wasn't just babbling nonsense, but yes, I may have to fall back on my traditional football forum position of, "counterpoint: it doesn't count when I do it, on the basis that I'm right". But seriously, I wouldn't want to suggest that you can't criticize ideas of class or race in schlock pop-media (one of my favourite things is actually this Mark Kermode review that involves him singing the Internationale halfway through), but I think there's a clear delineation between something that provides a negative message in and of itself, and something where you can find a message to be annoyed by if you go looking for one, often on the basis of where something isn't rather than where something is. The nature of any kind of escapist heroic narrative, particularly when used for video games, is going to leave a lot of stuff behind. A lot of the races and the plot devices, particularly the governing structures, are built in such a way as to do only what they need to do to drive the core plot and the game element of the game, with the expectation that nobody is particularly going to ask what lady Turians look like, any more than they're going to ask how a Volus do a poop. To look at those gaps as if they're significant in and of themselves seems to be somewhat missing the wood for the trees and misjudges what is necessary or reasonable for the genre and the format.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 20:48
|
|
|
Neruz posted:I sincerely doubt that Bioware intended Morinth to come across as "The Gay Menace" if only because if Bioware wanted to do that they'd be way more hamfisted and less subtle about it (like we'd find out that Morinth exclusively preys on young women and finds men disgusting or something similar.) How is Morinth "The Gay Menace" and how are the writers misogynistic?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
Widestancer posted:How is Morinth "The Gay Menace" and how are the writers misogynistic? Yeah, I'm not getting any of that vibe either. All I take away from Morinth and everything is that the squeaky clean Asari have a dark side they'd prefer not to let the other races know about, and that Morinth just happens to be a really bad apple. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 21:04
|
|
|
Mr. Soop posted:Yeah, I'm not getting any of that vibe either. All I take away from Morinth and everything is that the squeaky clean Asari have a dark side they'd prefer not to let the other races know about, and that Morinth just happens to be a really bad apple. I think people might be projecting some of their own crusades onto characters in this game; that happens with any fandom so it's not surprising.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 21:06
|
|
|
People call her a gay menace because the mission has you going through a female victim's diary that kinda insinuates that her mother wasn't approving of her lesbian relationship over it being an alien relationship. Plus Mass Effect 3 making the Ardak Yakshi(however the gently caress it's spelled) seem more like a LGBT issue ("I was born this way! I didn't make this choice!") didn't help. The Asari are just a poo poo race.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 21:40
|
|
|
FullLeatherJacket posted:It's entirely pandering when it's in response to people bloo-hooing on the Bioware forums and the various social media hellscapes that the writers didn't bolt on an opportunity for male Shep to get his homoeroticism on, and that it's somehow an obligation on them to add this in for the <1% of the fanbase that would care in any way. It's not done for the benefit of the gameplay or the narrative, it's done purely as an indulgence for a tiny minority of people with nothing better to complain about, and maybe some good PR. Widestancer posted:How is Morinth "The Gay Menace" and how are the writers misogynistic?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 21:41
|
|
|
Xander77 posted:Let me google "gay representation" for you. Shocking idea - maybe I'm trying to engage in a serious discussion?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 21:44
|
|
|
Yes, I get that it's lovely when you're part of a group that represents 1.5% of the population and therefore most media is not going to be about people like you. Particularly if, I guess, you can't really enjoy being a cool space marine unless you get to be a cool space marine in
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 23:12
|
|
|
FullLeatherJacket posted:Yes, I get that it's lovely when you're part of a group that represents 1.5% of the population and therefore most media is not going to be about people like you. Particularly if, I guess, you can't really enjoy being a cool space marine unless you get to be a cool space marine in This guy gets it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2014 23:13
|
|
|
Widestancer posted:This guy gets it. I think there was a mini version of this with the TOR thread (or longer version or whatever). Because it's another bioware game. It was more the fan-thing of 'why can't I have gay dialog with *this* person or *that* person' (and I say it that way because that's all it is, and some utterly untitillating fades-to-black) than an opinion about whether it's ok or not to want that. Though there's always a goon who wants to let other goons know that they're marginally less cool because they want a thing in a game they like. Anywho, what struck me at a certain point in the conversation was how someone brought up the idea of how 'it's hard to code or test' or something. Or easy to code? I don't remember, the point is they put in this idea that it had some technical aspect. At the time, and it's still how I feel about it, what struck me was that the *easiest* path would be to just let *everybody* who has romantic dialog say it at the character regardless of the character's gender. In point of fact, in order to get the game to reject you based on gender, there had to be logic in there to care about your gender in the first place. The easiest thing was actually to just let it happen regardless. I think someone mentioned earlier that this was something that occurred in a previous Bioware game, and it lead to some push back from fans that it undermined the idea that the characters had an existence outside the character; since they'd conform to whatever you were doing, rather than reacting honestly. The Asari have that quality as an entire race. It's interesting to think that they conform to your expectations, and Morinth, who doesn't, is the one who's evil. She's actually mechanically evil in the sense that, whereas any other romantic interest will eventually let Shepherd forcibly monologue romance at them, provided you picked one or more of their preferred genders, she's the only one who'll end the game if you do that. Basically defying you in the only way a game that's designed around wish fulfillment can. She's also, unless I'm mistaken, one of the few cases of a completely pointless intimidate/persuade option that you're almost guaranteed to not have access to if you wait too long. If you get it, you 'impress' her briefly. Then Samara comes in to rescue you. If you don't, Samara comes in to rescue you. It's required to have done elaborate investigation stuff for you to get this far, and then have the option to kill Samara. It's like the idea is that you're fascinated by her, and therefore the game will give you the chance to have her in your crew, but functionally it *feels* more like the quintessential unhealthy relationship, with the added weirdness of being a bioware romance; you have to go through this weird rigmarole to get her. It's kind of like a hidden character who's also a bad girlfriend. Like, you don't want this. The game is resisting you. If you go out of your way to make it happen, you get punished. The whole Ardat Yakshi fiction combined with Morinth storyline is like a rape whistle for the Asari. It's kind of interesting that, by the time you get to the 3rd game, they are terrifying monsters that force you to run. And make horrifying noises. They're worse than the Turian behemoths, because with those, the best strategy is to circle, and terrain can effectively block them. The banshees don't care about any of that. It's interesting because in terms of meaningful female relationships in the game, the one with the Rachni queen is perhaps the most mature. You spare her as the last example of her species. She's captured and forced to breed soldiers for the Reapers, and then you rescue her, and she helps the alliance against the reapers. She's your mom in a lot of ways because she represents the perfect alien menace, but you go out of your way to make sure she survives. In the end she's on your side, and you're still killing her 'children' in the multiplayer and mixed in with other Reaper thralls. Meanwhile, the Asari refuse to help you until you sneak onto their home world while it's under attack to get their prothean beacon--symbolically the source of their power and 'head start' over the other races. Then they give in and commit to build the crucible. Another interesting element is that the last time their planet was supposed to be attacked was during the Rachni wars. Given your relationship to the Rachni (whether you save their queen or not), this seems vaguely meaningful. I always save the queen, because I like the idea of saving the last of something even if it's a huge risk. I feel like the Asari are reluctant to even be in these games in some sense. Ultimately, they're buzzkills, sources of frustration, and become your most potent enemies--in the sense of what you face during the game parts. They're decoration and they resent it. Or something. I'm running out of my own opinions to project.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 00:36
|
|
|
Shepard's mom is a perfect alien menace? What?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 03:22
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:Shepard's mom is a perfect alien menace? What? No, her mom is an admiral, we talked in one of the games Widestancer posted:How is Morinth "The Gay Menace" and how are the writers misogynistic? Well, the asari are based on the green aliens that Kirk bones in TOS, they have a section of their lives devoted to whoring around before dedicated motherhood, are basically sex objects half of the time that the player runs into them, basically all party member asari to asari interactions are the mother trying to kill the daughter, the list goes on. The portrayal in ME1, where this race that lives thousands of years and had the strongest biotics of any race are crazy, impulsive biotic warriors for 100 years or so and grow into diplomats, therapists and leaders whose very name, let alone presence, carries the weight that comes with watching generations of other races die before your eyes, is OK. It's not super well thought out and the weird stripper, sex freak stuff is super uncomfortable, especially when talking to the retired turian general in the bar, but at worst it reads as ignorant of the implications of representing the gross majority of female characters in thegame as either sex weirdos, bad rear end video game chicks or empathetic matrons. Later in the series, we get Aria, Morinth and all these weird asari criminals that bring that whole "ignorant of the implications" thing a lot closer to a really sexist interpretation of what are ostensibly the only real female characters that are not in your party. The well was poisoned from the start, ME1's portrayal of the matriarch and the consort were played pretty well (and if Aria ever showed any emotion, she'd be the dark mirror to the consort. Perfect for the light/dark, 1/2 dichotomy), but all of that didn't quite skeeve me out as much as it did when I played 2&3 It could be because I was a dumb teenager trying to 100% the game and couldn't read subtext very well, but 
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 07:47
|
|
|
Widestancer posted:How is Morinth "The Gay Menace" and how are the writers misogynistic? It's a reference to one of my lovely, shining posts earlier in the thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 11:49
|
|
|
The Door Frame posted:No, her mom is an admiral, we talked in one of the games I think the writers wrote them to be sexually free as a way to empower females and you're oppressing them by forcing your own Protestant values on the game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 12:58
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:Shepard's mom is a perfect alien menace? What? Shepard's parents change depending on what background you choose in ME1, I think she's only alive if you pick the Spacer background, and is then a Captain, promoted to Vice Admiral in ME3. The other options, her parents are dead by Batarians (Colonist) or unknown if you chose the other option, which was basically Street Kid.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 13:40
|
|
|
Judge Tesla posted:Shepard's parents change depending on what background you choose in ME1, I think she's only alive if you pick the Spacer background, and is then a Captain, promoted to Vice Admiral in ME3. TheCosmicMuffet posted:It's interesting because in terms of meaningful female relationships in the game, the one with the Rachni queen is perhaps the most mature. You spare her as the last example of her species. She's captured and forced to breed soldiers for the Reapers, and then you rescue her, and she helps the alliance against the reapers. She's your mom in a lot of ways because she represents the perfect alien menace, but you go out of your way to make sure she survives. In the end she's on your side, and you're still killing her 'children' in the multiplayer and mixed in with other Reaper thralls. Meanwhile, the Asari refuse to help you until you sneak onto their home world while it's under attack to get their prothean beacon--symbolically the source of their power and 'head start' over the other races. Then they give in and commit to build the crucible.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 14:38
|
|
|
Nah she refuses a promotion to vice admiral in ME3 get your imaginary facts straight.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
What, your mother isn't a hideous psychic alien bug-thing?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 14:47
|
|
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:What, your mother isn't a hideous psychic alien bug-thing? Not until ME4, IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 16:42
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:And I have no idea what he's trying to say with that. It's like 'where do people like Shepherd come from?' He's a video game character with 2 behaviors. Behavior one is getting npcs to give him missions/join his war effort/engage in low impact sort-of romance, and Behavior two is shooting aliens. In the history of the game, the Rachni were a threat so potent that the Turians, Asari, and Salarians united to try to fight them, but weren't able to. So they uplifted the Krogan. The krogan became heroes for it, but then became tyrants. Then Humanity gets in the picture, and over a misunderstanding or whatever, they end up in a war with the Turians which we lose. Humanity gets assimilated into galactic culture, but is kept at arms length because of what happened with the Krogan, and the possibility that humanity is that volatile. Also we're primitive, which doesn't help. The krogan race is like humanity's older brother, and you're going to the same school he went to. Everyone thinks you might be a troublemaker because *he* was a troublemaker. The relationship between the enemy Rachni and the Krogan is partly nurturing and partly disfunctional. The Rachni provide the reason for the Krogan to be uplifted. But they're also the reason the Krogan 'went wrong'. They're family in the sense that they share genetic traits; krogan can make kids rapidly, so can Rachni. The rachni war and the council coming together is what creates the Krogan. It's the decisive experience in the council's history which brought them together and shaped everything that came before ME1. When humanity enters that arena, before you ever hear about a Reaper, you're being told constantly about what the Rachni war was and what the outcomes of it were. In comparison, the Geth are little known. Krogan identity is founded on why they were uplifted. Human identity and desire to join the council revolves around the council's desire for another strong ally (because of the Rachni war) and their fear of what a primitive race with too much support might become. All the male authority figures in the Shepherd's military career are always talking about the council and what's important about it. It's an entity that's composed of completely separate characters and events that come together to form a parental presence. The Rachni are the Ur-story seed. They represent all the chief parts of the overarching story; allying against an enemy, desperate measures, and forgiveness or reconciliation. Mechanically, as a purely video game thing, the Rachni queen is perfect for the video-game shepherd, because she makes infinite aliens for you to kill, and they are drones that have no moral quality whatsoever. But, whereas the Reapers speak with a male voice and ultimately seem to want to defeat you (ostensibly), the Rachni queen speaks with a female voice (and in ME1 it's through an Asari, which is like, holy poo poo a little bit), though it becomes kind of grandma-horse-with-cigarette-smoking in ME3, and when you encounter her directly, you have the option to spare or help her. She teaches you a lesson, and sacrifices to help you (get experience points! and have fun shooting aliens--mechanically shooting games don't have a lot of hooks to have ludonarrative, it's basically who're you're shooting, and how or when you die). The development of your character is both literally and figuratively tied to killing aliens, and the Rachni queen is the only example of an enemy which tries to nurture you whatsoever. Only later do you get the Geth arc, and arguably, they are a lighter mirror to the Krogan Cain and Abel conflict you encounter in ME1. Even given that, you are not facing an existential question with the Geth. The good geth will survive regardless of your choice--it's really about whether you give them the keys to a potent empire or not (and as it happens, this choice is meaningless in terms of the development of the Geth as a race). If you don't save her, and later 'save' the fake rachni queen in ME3, she'll send help for a while, but then withdraw it, and cause an inconsequential penalty. The lesson isn't moral outrage. It's that, having spurned her, she won't be there to help you when you need her. Much of ME3 is spent going door to door trying to resolve the Rachni/Krogan/Salarian/Turian shitshow, and convince each member in the value of what you're doing. Your 'real' mom is completely absentee. And pretty meaningless. The symbolic mother of Shepherd--the reason this character in this game was created, was to fight the monsters in the game. The Rachni queen isn't symbolic of motherhood to shepherd just because she's a big mother thing--it's because she's the source and cause of so much of the narrative to begin with, and she provides a story arc that's a microcosm of the total story, but in a gentle way. I say gentle because, whereas the Reaper arc is 'we destroy all intelligent life, because intelligent life is inherently dangerous. If you expect to destroy us you have to solve that problem', the Rachni arc is 'we just love to swarm, please don't destroy us forever. We'll swarm over here instead, and nobody has to get hurt'. The reapers are a stick, the Rachni are a carrot. They even have names that are the same number of characters and start with Rs. If you take the letters from Reaper and Rachni together, and use some of the letters to spell Repair, then with the remaining ones, you can spell 'Reach'n', which is what I'm doing right now. Anyway, the whole experience of the player in game is like that of a child. The artificial choices--the frustration when you don't get what you want. The conflict between parents, siblings, and generations--the gradual maturation of the combat and dialog mechanics... In a weird way the transition from a skill and point based requirement for renegade and paragon options for having an assumed skill in persuasion and intimidation in ME3 is like the socialization of a growing person who gradually comes from experimenting in interacting with others to developing a personality which affects their interactions with others as part of deliberate behavior. So what I meant was, yeah, it's not like she's the figure of motherhood all by herself. Or that she accounts for all the nuances of a mother's relationship with a child in interacting with Shepherd. More that it touches on these issues, and, in a way, when your game is about shooty-space-mans the alien-shooter-guy, then how would you mother that. Well, give him something to shoot. But gently encourage him not to shoot too much. It sounds infantile, but if you think about it, as simple as it is, that's the entire game's premise. Life conflicts with life. The natural inclination of things is to survive and become predators. The tricky role of parenting is to try to temper a child's desires so that they learn how to face larger challenges than just being frustrated with their parents. The krogan are the older brother who got kicked out of the house after they were arrested one too many times. Your Reaper dad offers to let them back in if they'll help their younger brother (you) not to go the wrong way. Even the way the Asari and Turians are more strongly identified with the Reapers because of Saren and whatsherface's indoctrination in ME1, kind of reinforces the symbolism that ties together the Rachni threat with Shepherd and the Krogan. Here are these figures that have been punished for their hubris. As the protheans are punished by becoming the Collectors. When you rescue the Rachni you take them in reverse from living weapons to free and helpful contributing bug monsters. It's totally nurturing. Bug monsters are totally nurturing. Come to think of it, I'm not sure the Salarians and The Krogan aren't actually meant to be the same person. Like a sweet smart lizard that was catalyzed into becoming a big dangerous gangster lizard. The sweet smart lizard inside every killer is still trying to fix their mess of a life, but they're trapped. They're faced with sacrificing themselves to try to move on. They want to start over--when Wrex/Wreav deny that a salarian had anything to do with fixing themselves, that's someone who's personality has become heavily callused denying the more innocent person they once were, even as it helps to put them on a better (or worse) path. If you let Wrex help to teach you in ME1 (by not shooting him in the face--and not sacrificing yourself to do it(Edit: Now that I think about it, it's possible that you are supposed to kill your human companion instead precisely because they represent a more immature version of yourself--someone driven by self-centered outlook, and you have to destroy that selfish person to take a real risk and help someone who's caught in a cycle of being troubled and dangerous)), then he's there in ME3 to symbolically turn over a new leaf and put both the Salarian fear and hubris as well as the Krogan anger and resentment behind him. In a way the humans are what a well integrated Salarian + Krogan halves of a personality would be. Cerberus is kind of your turn at flirting with becoming one of the badguys, and their forces dog you because they're a skeleton in your closet just like the genophage dogs the Kroglarians. Also Kitsumi represents death and being a rock star because she's a ninja hacker who's got a hoodie and that's cool. Joker is like, the idea of jokes. And how Bioware can't write them well. Alright so maybe you know. Not his 'mom' exactly. But a mom. And it's still a little weird to have a mom plead with you for her life. Even if, at first glance, she appears to be a giant hideous worm bug who makes infinite amounts of soldiers to swarm you with. TheCosmicMuffet fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 30, 2014 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 18:58
|
|
|
Yes, I see 
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 19:31
|
|
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Yes, I see ... Also, note how her appearance coincides with the fatal confrontation between Liara and her mother. Kinda a shame that the Rachni queen speaks through a random Asari, rather than Benesia's corpse.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 20:40
|
|
|
So how many times have you wondered to yourself what Tali's sweat must taste like? Xander77 posted:Ditto. Maybe the Rachni Queen thought it was somewhat crass. "Goodbye my little wing." "Oh no, mother!" "THEY TOOK MY CHILDREN AWAY! THEY DO NOT KNOW THE SONG!"
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 20:47
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:So how many times have you wondered to yourself what Tali's sweat must taste like? I don't know why tali even exists other than as a weird hook to give you an 'other side' to the Geth. I feel like you could have left her whole race and character out of the games and just confronted the Geth as the former slaves of an empire that created them, denied their independence, and then got wiped out in a war a long time ago. Or maybe existed 'somewhere' but the Geth had fled from another galaxy to avoid them. Even though I know that's not your point, you cad, you :  : The whole battlestar galactica cameo plot of tali et al doesn't fit. It's like it could have been a DLC for each of the 3 original MEs and you'd have lost nothing. Is she a sister? In what way does that experience matter or fit? Is she a type of warning? The idea that her duty to her people is what affects her point of view as being relevant to Shepherd in any way runs its course in ME1 when you decide to be either pro human or cosmopolitan. It's funny I was luke warm on ME1. I came in for 2 because the combat got better, and I like 3 mostly because that multiplayer horde mode is one of my all time favorite 360 experiences. I was never into the story until Lt D started this thread and DARED TO DREAM ABOUT CRITICAL NARRATIVE EXAMINATIONS. I'm pretty sure it's like apple cinnamon, I have diagrams.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 21:52
|
|
|
TheCosmicMuffet posted:I don't know why tali even exists other than as a weird hook to give you an 'other side' to the Geth. I feel like you could have left her whole race and character out of the games and just confronted the Geth as the former slaves of an empire that created them, denied their independence, and then got wiped out in a war a long time ago. Or maybe existed 'somewhere' but the Geth had fled from another galaxy to avoid them. Ehhh, I'm of the mind that she's there strictly to make the geth less sympathetic. I love the geth and really feel their plight, so any choice I would have made with them would have immediately been to the benefit of the geth. With her in the party and being the ambassador to the rest of the quarians, you get to have decisions to help the geth that would hurt the quarians, a race of space muslims who have been forced out of their home system and are so physically weak that they can't leave their sealed environment for fear of death by infection. She also serves to inform the player of how evil Cerberus really is if you're new to the series or you didn't do the rear admiral kohaku quest in ME1, and to set up the quarian/geth coflict in the next game Why she's more than just a glorified cameo in 3 is pure fanservice. She should've been just like liara in the shadow broker DLC What do you mean by the BG subplot?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
The Door Frame posted:Why she's more than just a glorified cameo in 3 is pure fanservice. She should've been just like liara in the shadow broker DLC Tali is a fun character to play as and hell I'm glad that Bioware respected that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 22:14
|
|
|
Widestancer posted:Tali is a fun character to play as and hell I'm glad that Bioware respected that. Ehhhh.... her engineer with a big shotgun schtick was fun in ME1, but she's out paced by EDI, Mordin, Legion and ME3 Garrus in terms of usefulness in combat. She doesn't have the unlock powers anymore, isn't great at shooting, can't tank or set up combos, so what used to be my constant companion just turned into the lady that I talk to after missions and never leaves the ship 
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 22:32
|
|
|
A Curvy Goonette posted:I think the writers wrote them to be sexually free as a way to empower females and you're oppressing them by forcing your own Protestant values on the game. This is great, because if that were true (I don't know) the posters in this thread are the other races in Mass Effect who think Asari are all sluts and they should be better than that
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 22:35
|
|
|
The Door Frame posted:What do you mean by the BG subplot? The Quarians are the story of Battlestar Galactica. Maybe not verbatim, but it's close. There's obviously other stuff in there--you point out they've got some kind of shame thing going on, because, obviously, they look like humans underneath, basically, but nevertheless all wear suits that obscure their faces. They're out roaming and plotting their revenge with their scavenged battlecruiser. There's minor drama about finding a new home vs returning to the old one and arguments about being reckless in pursuit of revenge vs concentrating on survival. The biggest missing piece is the clone leadership, but I've never been convinced that part of the BG series wasn't just a concession to FX budgets from the time period, and then got carried forward because why not. The story has potential to payoff in a few ways, but in the end just comes to them showing up in orbit at their planet, and having it out with their former slaves. In terms of effect on the rest of the race stories, there isn't a lot going on. The geth are a mysterious threat that, in ME1 gives you a hint about the Reapers before you see them. In ME2, Legion starts to foreshadow the idea of possible reconciliation, or even some kind of allure that biological life has to synthetic life. That angle is something I particularly like, because I enjoy the kind of Matrix Agent Smith style character where a synthetic life has an anima that can be whistful and jealous, rather than having such alien thoughts that they're unsympathetic. I tend to imagine that Skynet in the terminator series isn't just exterminating humans for the sake of its survival, but is a bitter, angry entity that resents its own creation and the flaws of its creators. Anywho. So the geth are a very useful plot element in the ME series. Even if their background material doesn't have a huge effect on the world. The krogan/rachni/council relationship is huge because it's everywhere. It even pervades the underworld locations where batarians and the vermin cannibal things who's name I forget hang out. Because it's reinforcing this idea; Krogan are utterly humiliated. Turians occupy respectable positions. Krogan do whatever dirty work they can. Every time you see a turian, krogan, or salarian, you're getting some kind of post-rachni flavor in there. Even down to the Krogan poet who's trying to get an Asari to fall in love with him. That's not just a weird little whatever moment, it's symbolic of the fragile hope that the Krogan have of improving their lot. The human element is the affordance that gets you hooked as a player, and brings the unfamiliar surroundings a little closer. Then there's the Quarians. They aren't part of the underworld. They're related to the Geth in as much as they're... you know... literally related with plot points. But they don't contend with the Reapers personally as a major set piece. Tali is not full of a grandiose plan that's thwarted by the Geth--she's listless and unsure of her allegiances or what's best. She kind of just does whatever you want to do. She's Kasumi without a face. Or an 'insert imaginary hot dork here' face. The Quarians are introverted, which is another way of saying they have no hooks in the larger story. In a way the Quarians are a face to the Geth's troubles, not the other way around. And the Geth are the ones that are tightly involved in the story--but they don't even get ramped up until the 2nd half of ME2. They're a loose thread before then at best. So that's what I mean when I say it's a sub plot. You could have a whole Quarian drama composed of their ongoing exile, desire to return, internal political wrangling, unexpected disasters with Cerberus, Reaper-Geth, or even just motley raiders, folded into one or more DLC chapters with Tali as a totally optional character, and it wouldn't affect or diminish the narrative that binds all the other races together. It's like they enjoyed the *Design* of the suits so much they didn't want to get rid of them. Even that to me is weird, because I see no reason that Salarians couldn't wear those suits while in the field or whatever. Do away with them altogether and leave the 'creators' of the geth as an unseen boogey man that the Geth are haunted by. Rather than a people undergoing exodus and trying to decide to come home. It confuses one of the elements of the plot that I find interesting as well. In terms of similar characters/groups, the 2 that come closest to having something in common with the Quarians is the Batarians after you blow up their planet, and the Reapers, in the sense that, for all we ever see, the Reapers are an itinerant race who wander until they decide to come home and clean house. In their case it's forceful and threatening. In the Quarian's case it's an anticlimax. Battlestar galactica, the original series, is just a weirdo latter day star trek. BSG the modern series is more of what Lost should have been; an allegorical attempt to show how the soul determines its own punishment, and purgatory is a reflection of moral indecision, not necessarily a punishment. Not that I buy that premise per se, but at least the show is fairly sophisticated, and has some idea of the 100s of years of writing on the intracacies of judeo christian philosophy and myth. Quarians don't really touch on any of that. In part because all of that doesn't fit into the larger more interconnected narrative about generational uncertainty. It's not like it isn't important, either! They could serve as the tail end of the maturation process. Children become adults, and then adults get old and die, and have to face that. The quarians stay in an unexplored purgatory until they throw themselves on their own spear out of lack of ideas. The Prothean you pull out of the ancient refrigerator is a better view on repentance and purgatory than the Quarians; at least he *connects* to the web of core relationships. The quarians, to me, are about the same as the frog assassin who worships jellyfish. It's fine as flavor. But it's a wasted opportunity and, whereas the frog doesn't directly relate at all, and therefore is *just* flavor, the Quarians not only manage to be in purgatory canonically, but their whole subplot is, itself, in a purgatory between being meaningfully tied into the goings on of the galaxy, and being just flavor for flavor's sake.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2014 22:55
|
|
|
I apologize for asking you to elaborate please stop now.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 04:06
|
|
|
The Reapers don't wander; we know exactly what they do. Between harvesting cycles the Reapers fly up (or down) off the galactic plane into "Dark Space" aka space with no stars. Then they basically go into low-power mode and chill there until Harbinger wakes everyone up for the next cycle. In ME Harbinger woke everyone up back during the Rachni Wars, but those failed so the Reapers started slowboating it back to the Galaxy through Dark Space. Sovereign, having failed to do his job with the Rachni started cruising around trying to find a new way to get at the Citadel relay until he eventually finds the Geth Heretics and Saran and makes the events of ME1 happen. By the time of ME3 the Reapers have finally made their way back to the Galaxy via slowboating thanks to Shepard ruining their three prior attempts to get an active Mass Relay so they could just hop on through. Harbinger has of course become totally obsessed with Shepard at this point thanks to how much of a huge pain in the rear end Shepard has been so Harbinger personally leads the majority of the Reaper fleet to Earth while the rest of the fleet spreads out through the Galaxy and begins harvesting. The reason the Earth had no warning of the Reaper attacks is because the Reapers were coming in from dark space rather than using the Mass Relays like everyone assumed they would. The Reapers have basically turned their entire house into a mouse trap while they snooze in the fields, then when they wake up they come back to clear out the trap. Neruz fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Oct 1, 2014 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 09:39
|
|
|
So Shepard is not only a catalyst for positive change, they're also a catalyst for rage-fueled stupidity in their enemies?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 13:29
|
|
|
whowhatwhere posted:So Shepard is not only a catalyst for positive change, they're also a catalyst for rage-fueled stupidity in their enemies? For a multi-million year-old aggregate mind of the most powerful and intelligent creatures to ever evolve in the galaxy, Harbinger is remarkably easy to distract.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 14:38
|
|
|
Neruz posted:For a multi-million year-old aggregate mind of the most powerful and intelligent creatures to ever evolve in the galaxy, Harbinger is remarkably easy to distract. Shepard blowing up Sovereign, a fully fledged Reaper would kind of mark him/her permanently in Harbinger's machine mind, I still miss the constant ASSUMING CONTROL and various other Harbinger effects from ME 2.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 15:41
|
|
|
Judge Tesla posted:Shepard blowing up Sovereign, a fully fledged Reaper would kind of mark him/her permanently in Harbinger's machine mind, I still miss the constant ASSUMING CONTROL and various other Harbinger effects from ME 2. True, but it's not the first time a Reaper has fallen; just the most recent. I feel like Harbinger overreacts just a little bit with the whole personal attack on Earth thing.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 16:23
|
|
|
Neruz posted:True, but it's not the first time a Reaper has fallen; just the most recent. I feel like Harbinger overreacts just a little bit with the whole personal attack on Earth thing. Well he has to. Not because he wants revenge on Shepard, but because Bioware needed a reason for you to fight the Reapers. As if them trying to destroy the entire galaxy isn't enough.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 18:46
|
|
|
Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Well he has to. Not because he wants revenge on Shepard, but because Bioware needed a reason for you to fight the Reapers. As if them trying to destroy the entire galaxy isn't enough. Best part is despite all of that he doesn't even show up in the game until right at the end, and then only for a very brief moment and in such a situation that you probably won't even notice it was him. Poor Harbinger. I kind of miss his ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 20:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 13:42 |
|
|
Yeah, it would've been nice for him to be a larger threat than he really is but that would require all players to have played the second part in a trilogy and they wanted gamers to be able to play the game without having to do that. Bioware sure knows how to make trilogies.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2014 21:08
|
|