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FrozenVent posted:A lot of managers feel the need to artificially rate people lower so that they can show improvement on their next review. There could also be an unspoken rule that nobody gets a perfect mark, ever. We get a grade from 1-5 on a bunch of goals and basically 95% of people get a 2.6-3.4 which gives you a 3 overall. To get a 5 you basically have to work your rear end off. This year I am shooting for a 4 as I have been super burnt out on some stuff involving work. But I got a 5 the last 2 years which is why I am burnt out.
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Sep 30, 2014 04:20
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spwrozek posted:We get a grade from 1-5 on a bunch of goals and basically 95% of people get a 2.6-3.4 which gives you a 3 overall. To get a 5 you basically have to work your rear end off. This year I am shooting for a 4 as I have been super burnt out on some stuff involving work. But I got a 5 the last 2 years which is why I am burnt out. My work is a strict curve, so to get a five you have to either have a bunch of gently caress-ups, or you end up loving over a lot of people. It's 100% bullshit, but it's been that way as long as I can remember.
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Sep 30, 2014 14:13
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I got a call today from Amazon, and they're going to extend me an offer! Should I still negotiate even if their base offer is wildly above my highest expectations? The HR woman asked me what my salary now was (hah like hell I'm telling Amazon I'm making less than half of what they're going to offer me) and when I took the advice of this thread and said "It's currently at a level where what I need from a new job is at least $80,000" she told me that "Oh, then we're definitely going to surpass your expectations" and that I'm going to get an offer letter tomorrow as she'll be spending the day talking to the money people over there and getting some numbers together. How should I negotiate this? Should I ask for a higher base salary, a higher signing bonus, or what? It's hard to prioritize when you don't have any numbers in front of you, but from what I've gathered from this thread, a higher base salary is always preferable to other perks like bonuses, stock, etc?
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Sep 30, 2014 22:26
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HonorableTB posted:I got a call today from Amazon, and they're going to extend me an offer! Should I still negotiate even if their base offer is wildly above my highest expectations? The HR woman asked me what my salary now was (hah like hell I'm telling Amazon I'm making less than half of what they're going to offer me) and when I took the advice of this thread and said "It's currently at a level where what I need from a new job is at least $80,000" she told me that "Oh, then we're definitely going to surpass your expectations" and that I'm going to get an offer letter tomorrow as she'll be spending the day talking to the money people over there and getting some numbers together. Congrats on the offer! I don't think that's the conclusion at all. What you negotiate for depends significantly on your own financial situation and job expectations. If you're relatively comfortable then you can probably take more bias towards variable comp. If you've got lots of kids or are nearer retirement then benefits matter. I would say wait for the offer, take a deep breath, and then consider the terms in light of external data rather than where you're currently at. You've obviously impressed them enough for an offer so you can reset your expectations from your worth in the marketplace away from what you're currently getting paid and should instead be looking at what salary references say people get for similar positions in whatever city their office is in. That said, you're obviously thrilled with where its likely to come in so I'd say your bias should be to confirming that it's fair rather than pushing for a bump. Once you've established yourself in the higher comp band a year or two down the road you can re-evaluate. Key is to consider all the elements you want / need and evaluate them as a total value package rather than piecemeal.
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Sep 30, 2014 23:13
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I've been employed as a contractor for the past three years, and today I got an offer for direct hire. I'm making $36k as a contractor, and they're offering me $42k. How would you guys negotiate in this situation?
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Oct 1, 2014 00:57
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That's a pretty decent raise, could maybe be higher, but what are the new benefits like?
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Oct 1, 2014 00:59
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Stellar compared to the contracting company, who cancelled my health insurance completely. 401k with immediate vesting with a 6% match, good insurance, decent vacation, bonus structure. I'm in a pretty low cost of living area. I guess I'm pretty happy with the salary, although as you said, it could be more. I was originally hoping for something closer to $45k.
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Oct 1, 2014 01:10
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I think you should push for it to be a few thousand higher (what's the worst that could happen?), particularly if you haven't gotten any raises for the past 3 years, but a 17% raise plus good benefits is nothing to be disappointed in. Also, look into what the going rate is for that type of job in your area so you have a better idea of what you're likely to get from negotiating. 36k feels pretty low to me and makes me think you have room to negotiate further, but I don't know what you do/where you live.
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Oct 1, 2014 01:25
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Yeah pay raise plus benefits probably means an effective raise of 30-40% which is great for you, but if benchmark salaries are $45 then there's no reason you shouldn't try for that.
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Oct 1, 2014 08:02
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I negotiated my offer late Monday to include a relocation, then yesterday confirmed over email my start date and when relocation benefit would be disbursed. I asked for an updated offer letter but haven't received it yet, but have gotten some emails from the directors I interviewed with congratulating me and what not. I need to give notice today at work but am kind of uncomfortable doing it without having the updated offer letter. Am I being overly cautious here? This is a huge reputable global company and all that, not a little family company.
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Oct 1, 2014 14:06
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Jerome Louis posted:I negotiated my offer late Monday to include a relocation, then yesterday confirmed over email my start date and when relocation benefit would be disbursed. I asked for an updated offer letter but haven't received it yet, but have gotten some emails from the directors I interviewed with congratulating me and what not. I need to give notice today at work but am kind of uncomfortable doing it without having the updated offer letter. Am I being overly cautious here? This is a huge reputable global company and all that, not a little family company. Nope, don't give notice until you've got a letter signed and back in the hands of your new employer.
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Oct 1, 2014 15:37
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Nope, don't give notice until you've got a letter signed and back in the hands of your new employer. This. Even if it feels unlikely, don't screw yourself by giving notice before the paperwork is finalized. Until all the documents are signed and returned it isn't a done deal.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:07
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Even if the new employer provides you with an offer, they can rescind that at any time.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:08
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Even if the new employer provides you with an offer, they can rescind that at any time. This is true, but for most large corporations it's going to be much harder to fire someone once they're employed than to do do midway through the hiring process.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:19
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asur posted:This is true, but for most large corporations it's going to be much harder to fire someone once they're employed than to do do midway through the hiring process. Absolutely. Just saying that having the offer isn't some sort of iron clad employment contract.
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Oct 1, 2014 17:22
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Guinness posted:This. Even if it feels unlikely, don't screw yourself by giving notice before the paperwork is finalized. Until all the documents are signed and returned it isn't a done deal. Further, in many cases it's very reasonable to wait for your background check to be finished since your offer will generally be contingent on its completion.
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Oct 1, 2014 18:13
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Got the revised letter and returned it, then gave notice. I know waiting for the background check to finish would be ideal but since I'm starting on the 20th I just wouldn't have time
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Oct 1, 2014 18:15
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Jerome Louis posted:Got the revised letter and returned it, then gave notice. I know waiting for the background check to finish would be ideal but since I'm starting on the 20th I just wouldn't have time If you're confident that it's not a major risk then nbd, just best practice. Congrats!
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Oct 1, 2014 19:37
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So I got an incredibly lovely deal. The specifics: - $66,000 per year, on an hourly basis with 1.5x hourly rate for overtime - No relocation package, instead I was offered a $12,000 signing bonus that won't even be payable until the end of my first check (so how in the gently caress am I supposed to get to Washington?) - $10,000 signing bonus for the second year - 90 units of reserved stock trading at $333 per share, vested after 4 years with increasing amounts of stock units per year - Insurance The HR woman claimed the total compensation including benefits equaled out to about $79,544 per year. I like most of it but that hourly bullshit just pisses me off. I'm expected to put in tons of overtime probably, and I really don't want to spend 12-16 hours per day just to make a living. She said the reasoning was that after a year I'd be promoted into a Quality Assurance Engineer position, which is salaried...but at the same rate of $66,000 per year which is EVEN SHITTIER because then I don't even get the benefit of additional money in exchange for breaking my balls every day. I can just see it: a year of working as much as I possibly can to get as much overtime money as possible...then I get put on a salaried role for the same amount of money, but they'd expect the same amount of work out of me for that pay because they've seen me do it for a year. I asked if she could get them to authorize paying me the $12,000 up front which resulted in an "I don't know, you're a unique case so they might, but I'll have to check". Even if I wanted to take such a low amount of money (which is still higher than what I make now, but I don't think that'll be commensurate with the cost of living in Seattle), I still wouldn't be able to take the job because I, in no way, can afford to move 3000 miles on my own dime. Assuming she can get me the bonus up front, what do you all think?
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Oct 1, 2014 20:06
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HonorableTB posted:I got a call today from Amazon, and they're going to extend me an offer! Should I still negotiate even if their base offer is wildly above my highest expectations? Wealth is relative.
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Oct 1, 2014 20:07
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You should probably still attempt to negotiate on salary, however I think most of your concerns can't be answered by HR. I would try to talk to the manager you would be under about hours, expectations and the reason for the switch from hourly to salaried with an identical salary. You can put moving expenses on a credit card if necessary.
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Oct 1, 2014 20:44
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asur posted:You should probably still attempt to negotiate on salary, however I think most of your concerns can't be answered by HR. I would try to talk to the manager you would be under about hours, expectations and the reason for the switch from hourly to salaried with an identical salary. I don't own a credit card.
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Oct 1, 2014 20:45
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Get one, or have enough in savings to move? A significant number of companies do lump sum relo and getting the money at the first paycheck is what occurs in my experience.
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Oct 1, 2014 20:51
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HonorableTB posted:So I got an incredibly lovely deal. The specifics: So I'm in tech in Seattle (a QAE, actually) but not at Amazon. From the half dozen people I know who have all worked at Amazon (past tense for a reason) it's a toxic workaholic culture with lots of on-call hours and few perks or fringe benefits. The turnover and employee churn at Amazon is just insane. Sure, it will vary on a team by team basis, but that's the general tone I've heard from most everyone I've talked to working in Dev/Test/Ops there. As an hourly with overtime (because they will grind you up with overtime) then the gross pay probably doesn't end up looking too bad, but a 66k salary is pretty criminally low for a QAE with a couple years experience in Seattle, especially considering the demands of Amazon. Those signing bonuses and stock grants help make up for it a bit, but they have some major strings attached with vesting and tenure requirements. You'll owe that signing bonus back if you don't last/make it for a year and if you don't stick it out for all 4 those stock grants will only be worth a fraction of what they say. That 66k base sounds below average among QAE/SDETs at Amazon, and an 80k total comp is from my experience below average in the region for the type of work. My total comp is more in the ballpark of 115-125k depending on how you calculate it, without having to fudge factor it with one-time signing bonuses and slow-vesting stock grants. What seems to happen a lot around here is that people get hired at Amazon as a way to move to the city with the big signing bonus, and then start looking for a better job within 1-2 years after their bonus fully vests. That kind of sounds like what you might be trying to do, as well. If you work hard for a year or two, are reasonably bright/interview well, and have Amazon on your resume you'd be in pretty good shape to job hunt once you're relocated. Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 21:07
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Amazon has a brilliant idea there... Import qualified employees from low cost of living areas with what they think is a great salary, and then they have to work for you for at least a year, unless they want to pay back a relo bonus you know they can't afford to pay back because 66K a year in Seattle is like making 46K in an normal cost of living area. After the first year the 10K 2nd year bonus is there keeping you around, and then going into your 3rd year the sweet sweet allure of vested stock options keeps you around for another 2 years. Modern day indentured servitude. Awesome.
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Oct 1, 2014 21:19
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skipdogg posted:Amazon has a brilliant idea there... Import qualified employees from low cost of living areas with what they think is a great salary, and then they have to work for you for at least a year, unless they want to pay back a relo bonus you know they can't afford to pay back because 66K a year in Seattle is like making 46K in an normal cost of living area. After the first year the 10K 2nd year bonus is there keeping you around, and then going into your 3rd year the sweet sweet allure of vested stock options keeps you around for another 2 years. Yep, it's pretty diabolically genius. And is also why Amazon mostly hires young people recently out of college and/or from out of town. None of the experienced tech people I work with in Seattle would ever consider working at Amazon. But I can see how it would appeal if you really want to move to Seattle and break into the tech world from elsewhere. Guinness fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 21:46
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Guinness posted:Yep, it's pretty diabolically genius. And is also why Amazon mostly hires young people recently out of college and/or from out of town. I'm already in the tech field (but with a non-tech education background) and I'd love to live in Seattle but that offer was completely insulting. I'd only be getting roughly a $9000 increase in my purchasing power and $66,000 in Seattle is equivalent to $54,000 and some change in Atlanta. Edit: What are the chances that this is just a lowball and that negotiation will bring the salary higher? She's already bumped it from 63k to 66k. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Oct 2, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 21:54
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asur posted:Get one, or have enough in savings to move? A significant number of companies do lump sum relo and getting the money at the first paycheck is what occurs in my experience. This is completely normal practice. Your case is in no way special HTB. skipdogg posted:Amazon has a brilliant idea there... Import qualified employees from low cost of living areas with what they think is a great salary, and then they have to work for you for at least a year, unless they want to pay back a relo bonus you know they can't afford to pay back because 66K a year in Seattle is like making 46K in an normal cost of living area. After the first year the 10K 2nd year bonus is there keeping you around, and then going into your 3rd year the sweet sweet allure of vested stock options keeps you around for another 2 years. Or you just say no and take another job (or no job). No one is making anyone work there.
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Oct 2, 2014 05:45
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Can someone review my counter-offer to Amazon before I send it off in the morning? I'd much appreciate the feedback.Amazon posted:Current offer: My counter-offer: Me posted:Hi HR Woman,
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Oct 2, 2014 05:51
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My opinion is you are being too emotional. Don't explain all that poo poo out. Just counter with: Salary: 75,000 Signing Bonus: Upfront to help me move (there is probably no way this will ever happen but good luck) No one gives a poo poo about your translations about cost of living and what you said you expected for salary. Just lay out the facts and what you need to move and see where they come back at you. spwrozek fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Oct 2, 2014 |
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Oct 2, 2014 06:12
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Agree with spwrozek on this, they don't give a gently caress about your cost of living, and making the comment about increased purchasing power actually hurts your case because it indirectly tells them they're giving you a massive raise. Say something like: Thanks [name] for the offer! You've included a number of elements which are attractive, but the base pay and relocation terms do not meet my expectations. I have summarized the terms where I have some concerns: - Base compensation: My expectation for this role was $80,000 base compensation, as we had discussed earlier this week. Given some of the non-cash compensation items, I'd be willing to consider an offer including base compensation of $70,000 per year - Salary vs Hourly: My impression based on previous discussions was that this would be a salaried position. I was disappointed to see that it is hourly and I would like additional clarification on the transition from hourly to salaried down the road. This may be a question better answered by my potential manager and I would be pleased to speak with [him] - relocation costs: Given the costs of moving from [Atlanta] to [Seattle], as discussed on October 1, I would like an amount for relocation costs to be paid up front. I look forward to your response. [you] You should be prepared for them to say "no", and consider carefully whether you want to take this job if they don't budge. Based on what others have said in the thread, I'd probably keep looking if it was me and they didn't move, but that's your call to make.
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Oct 2, 2014 08:57
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It sounds like you're getting ready to suck Jeff Bezos' dick. Tone it back.
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Oct 2, 2014 13:01
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spwrozek posted:My opinion is you are being too emotional. Don't explain all that poo poo out. Just counter with: Agree with this. The company doesn't care about 90% of what you wrote. You can either go with just countering as suggested or place yourself in the companies perspective and argue that you bring more value because of X, Y, and Z and thus should be compensated more. I would also ask about the transition between hourly and salaried as that seemed like a big concern and you lose a lot leaving at 1 or 2 years because of the vesting schedules. Edit: I'm not certain of salary ranges for this type of position, but if you're going to counter on salary I'd start higher than $4k to leave room for them to counter back. This is at the original counter of $70k, $75k as suggest by spwrozek is good. asur fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 2, 2014 |
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Oct 2, 2014 15:11
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You said base salary of $80k every time during discussions. Don't you dare walk back from that now, Amazon are the ones wasting everyones' time by not passing on you if they weren't willing to pay that much. I agree with all the other posters. Talk about what you want, not why, and don't ever say "at a minimum", say what you want ($80k) and be ready to walk. Especially with all the other red flags you already know about.
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Oct 2, 2014 17:08
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:You said base salary of $80k every time during discussions. I sent off my counter-offer with a firm demand of $75,000 and relocation. I dropped the reasoning behind my demands, and sent the following: Me posted:Thank you for the offer! You've included a number of elements which are attractive, but the base pay and relocation terms do not meet my expectations. I have summarized the terms where I have some concerns: If they refuse to budge on either of those, then I'm going to ask for the ability to work remotely from Atlanta. $66,000 in Atlanta is more than enough and I don't have to go through the trouble of moving across the country on my own dime. I don't need to be in an office to do QA, and I've worked remotely for my current job before. All Amazon would have to do is send me a company laptop and the VPN details. This would actually be the best situation of all of the ones that I've thought of. Atlanta is a super cheap city, I would be able to work in my boxers while banking significant chunks to build up my savings, and would keep me from the apparently toxic corporate culture of the office space. HonorableTB fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Oct 2, 2014 |
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Oct 2, 2014 17:11
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HonorableTB posted:would keep me from the apparently toxic corporate culture of the office space. You're delusional, you'll get all of the spillover with none of the ability to mitigate any of its negative effects.
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Oct 2, 2014 19:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You're delusional, you'll get all of the spillover with none of the ability to mitigate any of its negative effects. I don't see how you're coming to this conclusion.
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Oct 2, 2014 19:42
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You'll be that guy who no one knows that is easy to scapegoat via all the "offline" channels that make an office culture toxic in the first place.
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Oct 2, 2014 23:51
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I know a lot of people who are developers in various teams at Amazon and they have similar reservations, it's a sweatshop where everyone is expected to work all the time and eyebrows go up if you leave before 8:00pm. Of course they all got offered at least $130K in salary and tons of options and signing bonuses and relocation bonuses that worked out to like $30K post tax up front, so for most of them they seem to think it was worth it. Not a bad company overall if you want to work and learn a lot supposedly.
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Oct 3, 2014 02:19
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HonorableTB posted:I don't see how you're coming to this conclusion. The way you navigate a toxic culture, or mitigate its effects, is to develop back-channel relationships with your colleagues, managers and managers of other departments you interface with. That way, when poo poo goes wrong, you are the Good Guy. If you are the guy working in Atlanta while everyone else is working in Seattle, all of those folks will do you in the worst way possible when anything goes wrong. You won't have the connections to deflect blame, because gently caress it, nobody actually knows you, so why would they stick up for you?
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Oct 3, 2014 02:57
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