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I can "make 10" by subtracting 3 from 8, then adding that 5 to the original 5 to get 10. Not sure how useful that is though.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:11
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And people gotta remember that simple stuff like that is just the first step in the process, using Common Core goes far beyond "find a base ten" but smug idiots resistant to change use the simplest thing exactly for the result it's had on this thread: one or two people looking at a simple math problem and going "Why're they making this complicated???"
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Oct 1, 2014 23:13
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Armyman25 posted:It's not a question. A question asks something, this is more like a directive or a command. Tell me how to make a dozen donuts when adding trays that contain eight and five donuts. You put twelve of the donuts in a box and then set one aside, 5+8 = 12+1 Edit: Armyman25 posted:I can "make 10" by subtracting 3 from 8, then adding that 5 to the original 5 to get 10. Not sure how useful that is though. That's a totally valid method if you find it easier to work with multiples of five. This kind of arbitrary symbolic manipulation is required in order to do algebra and especially calculus. 5+8 5 + 5 + 3 10 + 3 Dr. Arbitrary fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 23:13
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:Tell me how to make a dozen donuts when adding trays that contain eight and five donuts. You put all 13 in a box and have a baker's dozen. Duh.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:15
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Armyman25 posted:Not sure how useful that is though. As others are saying, it's useful as a base for understanding how to work with numbers in an abstract way. It might not be as efficient as recalling the answer from memory, but the point is to teach students how numbers interact right from the start, as opposed to their first introduction to things like the commutative property being in an algebra course. Armyman25 posted:You put all 13 in a box and have a baker's dozen. Duh. But I see that you don't actually want to discuss this, so I'll leave it at that.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:24
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Armyman25 posted:The problem people have with it is 8+5=13. To teach students to believe that 8+5=10 is some pretty Orwellian poo poo. Dude you can solve this problem with a bag of jelly beans. Set a pile of 8 jellybeans to your left, and a pile of 5 jellybeans to your right. Now how can you rearrange the piles so one of them is a pile of 10. Move 2 jellybeans from your right to your left, leaving you with a pile of 8+2=10 and a pile of 3; or move 5 jellybeans from your left to your right, creating a pile of 3 and a pile of 5+5=10 Ed: Goddamn, beaten like old-fashioned book-learnin' 
VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 1, 2014 |
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Oct 1, 2014 23:26
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Armyman25 posted:It's not a question. A question asks something, this is more like a directive or a command. What color is grass? Tell me what color grass is.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:28
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Armyman25 posted:The problem people have with it is 8+5=13. To teach students to believe that 8+5=10 is some pretty Orwellian poo poo. You are the dumbest bastard.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:29
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VitalSigns posted:Dude you can solve this problem with a bag of jelly beans. But you still have 13 jelly beans. Unless you eat 3.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:40
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Well I can see catching up with this thread was a bad idea.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:41
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Oct 1, 2014 23:43
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I'm surprised how many people seem to be surprised at how much rote memorization there is in school. That is DEFINITELY a major reason people have trouble with subjects like math- I don't know about common core, but I'd love to hear that modern schools are teaching kids how to innovate their way to a solution rather than simply memorizing a list of right answers. I started doing awful at math starting around fourth grade, mostly because I couldn't memorize the multiplication tables, and I never really recovered until years later when I started gambling. In that context, I started seeing all kinds of ways numbers work together and "behave", and now I have all kinds of ways to break down numbers and put them together again instead of memorizing each combination. (i.e., I think of 9+7 as "ten and six" rather than "9+7=16", if that makes sense.) Extra Credits has a pretty great series of episodes on this actually: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/education-an-end-to-fear/ (Click on the youtube link.)
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Oct 1, 2014 23:44
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Lemma posted:I'm surprised how many people seem to be surprised at how much rote memorization there is in school. That is DEFINITELY a major reason people have trouble with subjects like math- I don't know about common core, but I'd love to hear that modern schools are teaching kids how to innovate their way to a solution rather than simply memorizing a list of right answers. I started doing awful at math starting around fourth grade, mostly because I couldn't memorize the multiplication tables, and I never really recovered until years later when I started gambling. In that context, I started seeing all kinds of ways numbers work together and "behave", and now I have all kinds of ways to break down numbers and put them together again instead of memorizing each combination. (i.e., I think of 9+7 as "ten and six" rather than "9+7=16", if that makes sense.) I was taught "9+7=16" instead of manipulating the numbers into "10+6" and I'm too lazy to re-learn how to do math better (properly?) but I can understand the change.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:48
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Armyman25 posted:But you still have 13 jelly beans. Unless you eat 3. MariusLecter posted:You are the dumbest bastard.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:48
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Armyman25 posted:I can "make 10" by subtracting 3 from 8, then adding that 5 to the original 5 to get 10. Not sure how useful that is though. It's useful because it teaches core concepts to a kid. The point is to get kids thinking about numbers as more than charts to memorize, and as bigger concepts than dumb 'if I have eight apples and Joe has 2 apples how many apples do we have' things.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:48
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While I have seen some poorly worded questions (attributed by some that don't understand Common Core to Common Core), the basic ideas that I'm seeing in younger kid's worksheets is great. While I chose to go into a math-heavy field, many of reasons I had an easy time with math was because my AP teachers didn't teach math through memorization. Memorizing times tables helps me some, but I think I would have been better off learning a way instead of memorizing tables. My friends who had trouble in "normal" math courses all were taught through memorization, which is loving terrible. If I have to do a math problem in my head I'm going to break down the numbers, there's no way I'm going to just add or multiply large numbers in my head. Of course, most math is done on my TI-89 which solves any problems I had with algebra.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:53
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Armyman25 is either a bad troll or arguing in bad faith for some reason. Lets get back to laughing at crazy people instead of pointlessly trying to teach them 2nd grade math.
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Oct 1, 2014 23:53
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Ninjasaurus posted:I was taught "9+7=16" instead of manipulating the numbers into "10+6" and I'm too lazy to re-learn how to do math better (properly?) but I can understand the change. It's helped me with other stuff, too. When I started taking biology 101 in college, rather than memorize all the weird names, I started breaking down the words into roots. "Lysosome", "Ribosome", "Peroxisome" etc. make for a pretty baffling list of words that you don't see in other contexts. But it's a lot easier to remember when you know that "soma" means "body". When I see a word on a test that ends in "~some", instead of trying to maintain a full list of every cell bit in my head and hope I remember the right ones, I can at least narrow it down to the ones with "bodies." That might be a little hard to explain, but when I was learning Korean I also learned to figure out all the Chinese root characters and put them together logically, instead of just phonetically memorizing nonsense sounds and hoping I could make words out of them. Again, these "break it down" strategies are largely things I "came up with" outside of school, so I think it's a good sign if schools are trying to teach kids strategies like this, because they really work. (For me and some, at least. I suppose if you have a photographic memory, rote works. But hey, whatever works for you.)
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Oct 2, 2014 00:00
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Ninjasaurus posted:I was taught "9+7=16" instead of manipulating the numbers into "10+6" and I'm too lazy to re-learn how to do math better (properly?) but I can understand the change. I'm pretty sure everyone was taught that way. But myself and some of the other people here said we came up with that method on our own. There's no proper way to do it, which is one of the points of the exercise. Some people are fine memorizing all of the addition/multiplication tables, some aren't.
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Oct 2, 2014 00:00
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I hear they're using a new method to teach subtraction in schools. It's really bad wow whoa!! Look what our children are learning!pre:Question:
100000000000000000
- 99999999999999999
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= ?
Solution:
(10 + 0) - 9 = 1 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
(10 + 0) - (9 + 1) = 0 (borrowed 10)
1 - (0 + 1) = 0
------------------------------
= 1
pre:Question:
100000000000000000
- 99999999999999999
-------------------
= ?
Solution:
99999999999999999 + 1 = 100000000000000000
------------------------------------------
= 1
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Oct 2, 2014 00:01
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Armyman25 posted:It's not a question. A question asks something, this is more like a directive or a command. Yes, children should not engage in the Orwellian nightmare of listening to their teacher's instructions during class. Are you trying to sound paranoid?
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Oct 2, 2014 00:14
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Common core is exactly the method used by people who have to make change on transactions quick in their head. Personal example: Common core appears to be the exact method I use to do quick calculations at the till as a bartender. I wish they had taught to me in school, not so I could bartend better (though it has helped with that) but simply because it's a better way to do math in my head.
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Oct 2, 2014 00:16
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Willatron posted:Common core is exactly the method used by people who have to make change on transactions quick in their head. It's how I used to count out correct change when I worked on a cash register too. $15.37 order and they give you a $20, work your way up from their total to get the correct type of ideal change: 15.37 15.40 = $0.03 15.50 = $0.10 16.00 = $0.50 17.00 = $1 18.00 = $1 19.00 = $1 20.00 = $1 $4.63 in the fewest possible coins and bills. Counting up to figure a difference out is really handy when you have multiple denominations involved.
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Oct 2, 2014 00:27
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Willatron posted:Common core is exactly the method used by people who have to make change on transactions quick in their head. I'm not convinced this particular method is part of Common Core- I've seen no indication the targets are that fine-grained.
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Oct 2, 2014 00:48
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People are just resistant to change. They also don't want to feel dumber than their kids. My friend is amazed when I can do math in my head that he'd have to write down. I can tell him the steps I used and he can do that math quickly in his head and get the same answer, he just doesn't visualize numbers that way. Teaching this early is a great idea.
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Oct 2, 2014 00:56
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Guns are a religion.
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Oct 2, 2014 01:18
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I went to school in Australia and we never had to memorise addition and multiplication tables. Before common core, did Americans seriously learn addition of things like 8 and 5 by memorising? 
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Oct 2, 2014 01:24
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BBJoey posted:I went to school in Australia and we never had to memorise addition and multiplication tables. Before common core, did Americans seriously learn addition of things like 8 and 5 by memorising? I always found shifting values around to the nearest 5 or 10 easier while some people I went to school ended up memorizing that 9+6=15. I would just make the 9 into a 10, drop the 6 into a 5, and add the 10 and 5 together. Seems easier to have a formula to work with and it made sense once I hit algebra and calculus. The people bitching about common core are just misguided folk who need to target their rage at the next Obama/government thing.
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Oct 2, 2014 01:38
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BBJoey posted:I went to school in Australia and we never had to memorise addition and multiplication tables. Before common core, did Americans seriously learn addition of things like 8 and 5 by memorising? Heh, for me that was long enough ago that I've completely forgotten. I do remember having to memorize multiplication tables though.
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Oct 2, 2014 01:42
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BBJoey posted:I went to school in Australia and we never had to memorise addition and multiplication tables. Before common core, did Americans seriously learn addition of things like 8 and 5 by memorising? Yes we had to memorize from 0*0 up to 12*12 we would sit in class just repeating 1*1=1 1*2=2 all the way up to 1*12=12 then you start with 2*1=2 2*2=4 until you reached 12*12=144 going through the 3's 4's 5's 6's etc. That was basically my year of 3rd grade math.
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Oct 2, 2014 01:48
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I wish I could do math beyond basic addition, subtraction and multiplication
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Oct 2, 2014 01:58
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Lowtechs posted:Yes we had to memorize from 0*0 up to 12*12 we would sit in class just repeating 1*1=1 1*2=2 all the way up to 1*12=12 then you start with 2*1=2 2*2=4 until you reached 12*12=144 going through the 3's 4's 5's 6's etc. That was basically my year of 3rd grade math. No lie, in college at a goddamned engineering school I had to convince a fellow student that multiplication was repeated addition. Rote memorization is dumb, algorithms are awesome. 
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Oct 2, 2014 02:16
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There is merit to memorizing your tables though. I think it'd be a good idea if, in addition to these more conceptual techniques, they did timed exercises to improve speed. You can't be putzing around trying to figure out 6*7 halfway through an equation or you'll take forever to finish.
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Oct 2, 2014 02:20
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This mathchat is worse than gunchat.
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Oct 2, 2014 02:45
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Nth Doctor posted:No lie, in college at a goddamned engineering school I had to convince a fellow student that multiplication was repeated addition. Rote memorization is dumb, algorithms are awesome. I've run into this issue teaching kids all the time and it is always a chore to break the habit. Reliance on multiplication tables is dumb partially because they don't introduce the conceptual framework needed for later math and partially because kids usually start forgetting them as soon as they pass whatever grade they're in. It is much easier to remember "x times y = y, x times" than to remember the 144 different statements in a 12x12 multiplication grid. I often find this the quickest way to do subtraction of large values in my head, so I dunno what people dislike about it. PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Oct 2, 2014 |
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Oct 2, 2014 02:52
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Nth Doctor posted:No lie, in college at a goddamned engineering school I had to convince a fellow student that multiplication was repeated addition. Rote memorization is dumb, algorithms are awesome. please tell me he dropped out.
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Oct 2, 2014 02:55
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VideoTapir posted:please tell me he dropped out. I wish I knew. I was in CS and I think they were working on a mechanical engineering degree so we didn't have a lot of crossover. Most of the school is ME while my program was pretty small. This experience did nothing to assuage the general feeling that most MEs are as dumb as a bag of hammers.
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Oct 2, 2014 03:00
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In 3rd grade, we did "holy cards" (went to Catholic school) which had 100 multiplication problems. We had 2 minutes to answer them all. If we got 80 or more right, we got a candy bar (full size, none if that fun size bullshit). We did this every Friday for 2 months (but you only got a candy bar once).
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Oct 2, 2014 03:05
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm not convinced this particular method is part of Common Core- I've seen no indication the targets are that fine-grained. CCSS.MATH.CONTENT.1.OA.C.6 posted:Add and subtract within 20, demonstrating fluency for addition and subtraction within 10. Use strategies such as counting on; making ten (e.g., 8 + 6 = 8 + 2 + 4 = 10 + 4 = 14); decomposing a number leading to a ten (e.g., 13 - 4 = 13 - 3 - 1 = 10 - 1 = 9); using the relationship between addition and subtraction (e.g., knowing that 8 + 4 = 12, one knows 12 - 8 = 4); and creating equivalent but easier or known sums (e.g., adding 6 + 7 by creating the known equivalent 6 + 6 + 1 = 12 + 1 = 13).
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Oct 2, 2014 03:11
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protastic posted:Armyman25 is either a bad troll or arguing in bad faith for some reason. Lets get back to laughing at crazy people instead of pointlessly trying to teach them 2nd grade math. just check his rap
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Oct 2, 2014 03:14
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