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asdf32 posted:They're related because the government can pay debt by printing money. Or just by generally causing inflation it can make the real value of past debts significantly lower. Isn't that the deal the banks are lined up begging to take though, that enables the whole "manipulation" of the money supply?
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Oct 3, 2014 04:22
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 Eh there is a small correlation but not a particularly strong one outside of the US. Also lol gj france
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Oct 3, 2014 04:22
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I guess my primary problems with Capitalism are that: 1) It promotes an unjustifiably unequal and arbitrary distribution of income and wealth, 2) It is extremely prone to manias, panics, and devastating crashes, 3) It does not and will not ever attain full employment. I don't think Libertarianism does anything to fix any of these issues, nor do these problems appear to be acknowledged by Libertarianism, so it isn't the philosophy for me.
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Oct 3, 2014 04:23
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Mr Interweb posted:Oh also since we were discussing it a page or two back, I don't get how right-wingers argue that FDR's policies somehow made the Depression worse. As time went on, he continually raised both taxes and spending. If the supply siders were correct, then with every tax and spending hike, the unemployment should have kept shooting up, yet the exact opposite happened. Just to reiterate, we had a 90%+ top tax rates with record spending by the time WWII came around. Doing those things should have plunged us into an economic black hole, the result of which would have made the Great Depression look like the Roaring 20s. If FDR had just deregulated everything and abolished taxes then the Great Depression would have ended instantly, this is a well-known FACT. The market is just so strong that it managed to recover despite FDR's socialist programs to transfer money from rich captains of industry to inner-city welfare queens
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Oct 3, 2014 04:58
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jrodefeld posted:I am in support of commodity money that emerges on the market because the people choose it voluntarily (i.e. it has intrinsic value of some sort). There is zero evidence that people will voluntarily choose to use something because it has "intrinsic value" even assuming precious metals have intrinsic value (they do not, save for some scientific applications, and the vast majority of the populace are not interested in solution chemistry of gold and sulphate). jrodefeld posted:However it cannot be disputed that the economic progress and expansion of prosperity that resulted from the Industrial Revolution helped all members of society, who lived in greater comfort among greater abundance of goods and services every decade until the beginning of the Progressive Era. Yes it can. You keep saying things like "cannot be disputed" for things that are, in fact, heavily in dispute. Like, for example, the ability for war to be waged sans fiat currency. jrodefeld posted:You are erroneously comparing living conditions for people who lived in a rudimentary developing economy of less than 50 million people with a highly advanced industrial economy comprised of more than 320 million people a century and a half later. You have to judge living standards by the standards of the era. By that standard the most complete and effective rise in living standards was driven by the Soviet Union. jrodefeld posted:There is not perfect era that reflects an idealized market economy, but I believe without a doubt that the popular understanding of that period in our history is tainted with propaganda from people who have a great incentive to make you terrified of what would happen if the State did not exist. At least try and assume, for even a moment, you are speaking to people capable of autonomously performing their own research and self-education and pull your head out of your arse, you arrogant gently caress. You do not have some sort of special knowledge available only to Randian supermen. jrodefeld posted:"we tried your free market idea under Ronald Reagan and look at the results!" Actually we use the Reagan administration as an example of why deregulation and neoliberalism doesn't work, not as a critique of Libertarian ideals. There are far, FAR more effective critiques of libertarianism. Also, JRod, care to address the fact that we can cite literally hundreds of civilisations who waged war without fiat currency? Any time now would be sweet.
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Oct 3, 2014 05:00
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:I guess my primary problems with Capitalism are that: 1) It promotes an unjustifiably unequal and arbitrary distribution of income and wealth, 2) It is extremely prone to manias, panics, and devastating crashes, 3) It does not and will not ever attain full employment. I don't think Libertarianism does anything to fix any of these issues, nor do these problems appear to be acknowledged by Libertarianism, so it isn't the philosophy for me. There is no system anywhere that has ever existed which can guarantee "100% employment" my dear goon. The closest thing to that is old Stalinist Russia just making up poo poo work for people and paying them fuckall for it- pointless work for pointless pay, and even then it wasn't 100%. The sheer population means that you can never have EVERYONE working, but that's part of why societies develop systems to take care of those it can't or won't employ. And that's okay. Manias aren't unique to capitalism but they can, admittedly, be easily exacerbated by it presuming such exploitation is allowed. You can make rules and regulations to disallow it of course, and I'm all in favor of that. But sometimes manias are justified, so keep that in mind. Now as for the unequal and arbitrary distribution of wealth.. ...Uhm, well you find that everywhere. Oh sure commies like to roar about how equal everything is, but then Animal Farm happens- it's inevitable. Some people will be at the top, others will not be. The trick is in social policies that prevent this inequality from becoming so gross that we recreate The Bad Old Days instead of working to make Better Tomorrows.
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Oct 3, 2014 05:44
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Reverend Catharsis posted:There is no system anywhere that has ever existed which can guarantee "100% employment" my dear goon. The closest thing to that is old Stalinist Russia just making up poo poo work for people and paying them fuckall for it- pointless work for pointless pay, and even then it wasn't 100%. The sheer population means that you can never have EVERYONE working, but that's part of why societies develop systems to take care of those it can't or won't employ. And that's okay. 100% employment is not "100% of the population has a job," you know that right? It means everyone who wants a job can get one. The issue with capitalism in this regard is it requires a certain amount of the population who WANT to work to be unemployed.
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Oct 3, 2014 06:10
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I'll go back to the point that jrod ignored slightly over the last few pages small-scale, private wars can be profitable. I agree, but this type of situation would not happen in a free society:QuarkJets posted:Keep in mind that we're not even talking about intercontinental invasions like what you're probably imagining. The DRO of West Los Angeles could invade the DRO of 43rd street to 52nd street. War profiteers don't require a state to make profit, they can sell to both "sides". The war has to be funded from somewhere. In this case, the DRO has to bear the full cost of the war. They can get their funding from two places: their clientele, and the assets they steal from the DROs they "pillage". Firstly, the clients could simply leave the DRO and stop paying them. I doubt anyone would sign a contract with a DRO without a clause specifying that it could be terminated in the event it goes rogue and starts invading other DROs with violence. Now, the DRO could simply hold all their clients hostage and steal their money. When this DRO starts waging wars, it is very likely that the other DROs see this as a very direct and obvious threat to their business and band together remove the rogue DRO (this is also a clear disincentive to go rogue in the first place). Finally, the employees of this DRO are not indoctrinated soldiers like the US army, or any warring tribe or nation in history. They do not want to put themselves in needless danger for the sake of their employer. They will just leave, unless the DRO is a cult, but who would subscribe to a DRO with the reputation of being a dangerous cult?
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Oct 3, 2014 06:34
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As a member of Valhalla DRO, I can assure you that I've personally received a handsome share of the war loot. Why would I want to make more enemies, lose protection, and forfeit that share of the loot? And the employees know drat well the policy "blood in; blood out" when it comes to quitting.
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Oct 3, 2014 06:45
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Quantum Mechanic posted:100% employment is not "100% of the population has a job," you know that right? It means everyone who wants a job can get one. I'm well aware, in fact. It does not change my statement in the least. There just isn't enough stuff to GIVE people to ensure 100% employment. There's just not enough industries to do it. Even if you just create bullshit jobs to give to people to keep them busy there's not going to be enough to go around. It's just not feasible, especially when you have increasingly bigger and bigger and bigger populations to employ.
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Oct 3, 2014 06:46
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If libertarians dropped the "libertopia works for everyone" shtick and owned up towards being a doomsday cult free for all I'd be interested, but this wimpy pacifist peacenik routine is boring and not enticing.
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Oct 3, 2014 06:49
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President Kucinich posted:As a member of Valhalla DRO, I can assure you that I've personally received a handsome share of the war loot. Why would I want to make more enemies, lose protection, and forfeit that share of the loot? Because it is risky and people find it very hard to find a justification to be violent towards innocent people with out some sort of intense outgroup otherising. Explain how Valhalla DRO is going to brainwash a bunch a people enough to go to war without religion, nationalism or indoctrination from childhood going on.
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Oct 3, 2014 06:54
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President Kucinich posted:If libertarians dropped the "libertopia works for everyone" shtick and owned up towards being a doomsday cult free for all I'd be interested, but this wimpy pacifist peacenik routine is boring and not enticing. I am not a pacifist at all. I just don't believe an ancap society would simply break down into a warrish hellscape. e: However I do believe it would be a much more enjoyable place for pacifists.
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Oct 3, 2014 06:55
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The Mutato posted:Because it is risky and people find it very hard to find a justification to be violent towards innocent people with out some sort of intense outgroup otherising. Explain how Valhalla DRO is going to brainwash a bunch a people enough to go to war without religion, nationalism or indoctrination from childhood going on. Tell them that it makes them filthy rich?
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Oct 3, 2014 06:55
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The Mutato posted:I am not a pacifist at all. I just don't believe an ancap society would simply break down into a warrish hellscape. I don't think an ancap society would break down into a warrish hellscape because I don't believe it could exist. Does that count?
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Oct 3, 2014 06:57
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The Mutato posted:Explain how Valhalla DRO is going to brainwash a bunch a people enough to go to war without religion, nationalism or indoctrination from childhood going on. Do this thing or we will shoot you because no single person can stop us and we don't give a gently caress.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:00
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Vahakyla posted:Tell them that it makes them filthy rich? Most people with the talent to be a successful assassin know that being an assassin would make them filthy rich. However very very few them would want to become assassins. Caros posted:I don't think an ancap society would break down into a warrish hellscape because I don't believe it could exist. Does that count? Sure, but that's not what were discussing. You have other reasons for thinking it couldn't exist, but we are imagining that all those other problems you have are solved for the sake of this particular discussion.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:02
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Do this thing or we will shoot you because no single person can stop us and we don't give a gently caress. Yeah all the other DROs are pretty keen to stop you, and that doesn't sound like a very motivated soldier.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:03
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The Mutato posted:Most people with the talent to be a successful assassin know that being an assassin would make them filthy rich. However very very few them would want to become assassins. We have assassins.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:03
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The Mutato posted:Because it is risky and people find it very hard to find a justification to be violent towards innocent people with out some sort of intense outgroup otherising. Explain how Valhalla DRO is going to brainwash a bunch a people enough to go to war without religion, nationalism or indoctrination from childhood going on. Libertarianism stops religion? Anyways, you'll notice in our flyers scattered among the dead that our followers are well fed from all the vegetables and livestock we stole, well clothed (again, thank you naked dead people), and share an intense sense of comradery, what with us all being from the same region.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:03
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Vahakyla posted:We have assassins. I know we have assassins. I'm saying it takes a very specific type of person who has the mental capacity to become an assassin, and it would be difficult and expensive to find enough of them to work for a violent DRO. President Kucinich posted:Libertarianism stops religion? No, but the DROs don't. Unless you want to subscribe to the hardcore IS DRO who charges an expensive premium for all the guns and weapons and bombs they are buying up. And once again, once one DRO becomes and obvious threat, the larger and more popular DROs will quickly band together to remove it.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:10
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The Mutato posted:Yeah all the other DROs are pretty keen to stop you, and that doesn't sound like a very motivated soldier. Well slave armies are less effective but cheaper.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:15
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The Mutato posted:I know we have assassins. I'm saying it takes a very specific type of person who has the mental capacity to become an assassin, and it would be difficult and expensive to find enough of them to work for a violent DRO. The Mutato posted:No, but the DROs don't. Unless you want to subscribe to the hardcore IS DRO who charges an expensive premium for all the guns and weapons and bombs they are buying up. And once again, once one DRO becomes and obvious threat, the larger and more popular DROs will quickly band together to remove it. Yes and DRO's would do this naturally? I mean its not like in history where when one3 nation could build up strength and prepare for was, and was able to take advantage of others rivalry. Yep I'm sure DRO's would all get along perfectly. Raskolnikov38 posted:Well slave armies are less effective but cheaper. This can be solved easily, have the DRO look for youths around the age of five who have exceptional physical and mental abilites, offer high financial rewards for the aprents to emancipate them to the DRO, and the DRO then trains them into battle hardened warriors who have complete loyalty to the DRO. Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Oct 3, 2014 |
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Oct 3, 2014 07:17
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The Mutato posted:
Guns and ammo are cheap as hell and easy to produce. Is metal, gun powder, and drugs suddenly hard to come by or something? Valhalla DRO's cocaine fueled child army of God is pretty much unstoppable thanks to strategic location and an endless supply of malnourished easily led orphans ready to die for glory and honor.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:22
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The Mutato posted:
This means that there will be war? I mean, even in your ideal scenario the calm effect is a reactive one. It only comes to life after war breaks out?
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Oct 3, 2014 07:26
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President Kucinich posted:Guns and ammo are cheap as hell and easy to produce. Is metal, gun powder, and drugs suddenly hard to come by or something? Does Valhalla DRO just consist of Manowar, Tyr, and Therion constantly being blasted on speakers everyday?
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Oct 3, 2014 07:27
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Vahakyla posted:This means that there will be war? I mean, even in your ideal scenario the calm effect is a reactive one. It only comes to life after war breaks out? The closing of schools, the disintegration of the family unit as grandparents and parents alike off themselves or succumb to disease, and the 'prosper or perish' model of living means there will be plenty of desperate lonely people looking for a way out, with little to no ties to the land, thirsting for something to fill their empty gut. Valhalla DRO is going to find big ways to sate that hunger.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:30
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The Mutato posted:No, but the DROs don't. Unless you want to subscribe to the hardcore IS DRO who charges an expensive premium for all the guns and weapons and bombs they are buying up. And once again, once one DRO becomes and obvious threat, the larger and more popular DROs will quickly band together to remove it. Why would they remove it? Either war is unprofitable and so the basic tragedy of the commons effect kicks in (its hurting all our businesses, but its better for me if you shoulder all the costs) or war is (or can be) profitable in which case kicking down on renegades makes sense. But if war is profitable, then its morality rather than economics preventing wars, in which case we are right back to square one. That plus getting people to fight for immoral reasons has never been difficult. Any raiding culture is evidence of this. Getting people to fight for greed and envy or adventure or whatever is not something that's historically been difficult. A lot the claims about how libertarianism will prevent war seem to boil down to "if we first assume people are moral and act in the best interests of all people, then our system works". Which is true, but tautological. And to expand, how is a DRO which responds to what it perceives as illegitimate use of force by another actor not claiming a monopoly on force itself? How is it not a state?
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Oct 3, 2014 07:35
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Crowsbeak posted:Attention, men with exceptional skills relating to silent hunting wanted. Upon completion of tests will have all expenses do to move and after paid by Sicilian DRO, persons with flexible morals are a must. The point is getting along peacefully is in their economic best interests. Who is paying for the education, indoctrination and training of these child soldiers. "Hmm, why is my protection bill so high this month? Oh, child soldiers? Why the gently caress am I paying for child soldiers?" - Sicilian DRO client. Vahakyla posted:This means that there will be war? I mean, even in your ideal scenario the calm effect is a reactive one. It only comes to life after war breaks out? Yes, but only if. I don't believe it would happen in the first place, and even if it does, there will still be less overall crime and death in the country that would more than make up for it. Crowsbeak posted:Does Valhalla DRO just consist of Manowar, Tyr, and Therion constantly being blasted on speakers everyday? I can deal with this.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:36
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G1mby posted:Why would they remove it? Either war is unprofitable and so the basic tragedy of the commons effect kicks in (its hurting all our businesses, but its better for me if you shoulder all the costs) or war is (or can be) profitable in which case kicking down on renegades makes sense. But if war is profitable, then its morality rather than economics preventing wars, in which case we are right back to square one. My point exactly, it is more difficult to get people to fight for immoral reasons in a free society. It is easy to create those reasons when you control the society from the top down - much harder from the bottom up. e: sorry about all the double posting, I should start previewing my posts
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Oct 3, 2014 07:39
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So no we regressed into "well yah there will be war and poo poo but it's fine, no government!".
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Oct 3, 2014 07:39
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Destitute orphan wrapping mom's carcass in discarded plastic shopping bags finds a slip of paper: I have no money, but this DRO flyer says in big block letters "Valhalla pays you." Hmm...
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Oct 3, 2014 07:42
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The Mutato posted:Yes, but only if. I don't believe it would happen in the first place, and even if it does, there will still be less overall crime and death in the country that would more than make up for it. If I will away the negative aspects of my fantasy world it works perfectly!
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Oct 3, 2014 07:42
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Here at Temujin DRO we offer an impressive array of benefits for our murderous hordes: stolen crops, actual real meat, gold pried from the cold dead hands of our victims, and as many slaves as you can capture. I think this is more than sufficient material reward, but everyone in Temujin DRO knows the real reward of battle is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters.
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Oct 3, 2014 07:48
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And hey, according to a great philosopher, there will always be men who just want to see the world burn. They won't abide by DRO's, they won't care for money or fiscal sense. They just want power over others. What about them?
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Oct 3, 2014 07:49
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They'll all vanish in a puff of smoke and raw unfettered capitalism, enlightened by the mighty hand of God-errr I mean the mighty hand of the invisible chain of the Free Market- to do good and ahahahaha I can't even finish the joke.
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Oct 3, 2014 08:12
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I'm starting a new DRO it's called Unrepentant Statists Army, our specialty is installing infrastrucutre and using company bills for literally everything, we have a tiered fee structure and we spend roughly 50% of our income on military hardware we really dont need but it keeps the other DROs in line. If you need food and water we sub contract for that, for an additional fee you can participate in stock holder meetings, we must warn you however that we only operate in areas where you or your parents who own you have by a significant margin agreed to a lifetime contract. If you like your current DRO you can keep your current DRO but we cant be held responsible for any rate hikes they may pass onto the consumer as a result of us completely kicking their asses sideways. Thank you for watching, we have hope you will attend the next shareholder meeting.
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Oct 3, 2014 08:35
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The Mutato posted:I'll go back to the point that jrod ignored slightly over the last few pages small-scale, private wars can be profitable. I agree, but this type of situation would not happen in a free society: Yes, but then there's reality, which disproves all of your points Man, arguing against libertarians sure is easy Okay, but more seriously, have you ever heard of mercenary groups? Take that concept, but apply it to a DRO. The clients who dislike the war-waging DROs would leave war-waging DROs, but there are other clients who would either stay due to apathy or who would enjoy being part of such an organization. The clients could see themselves as being no different than a regular war profiteer; they pay some money to the DRO for support and they receive payments in the form of plunder. Who says that a DRO has to go "rogue" to do any of this? It would likely all be very voluntary The Mutato posted:Because it is risky and people find it very hard to find a justification to be violent towards innocent people with out some sort of intense outgroup otherising. Explain how Valhalla DRO is going to brainwash a bunch a people enough to go to war without religion, nationalism or indoctrination from childhood going on. Risk/reward, right? Furthermore, with the right personality acting as CEO you could easily make a convincing case for going to war. Call it nationalism if you like. Or hell, make a religious-based DRO that creates crusades, I don't care, the point is that it is totally feasible and you don't have a good counterargument. It didn't take Hitler a generation to lead the Germans into a nationalist fervor, it'd be like that except it would be pride in one's DRO instead of one's nation. And it doesn't take any indoctrination or brainwashing for people to invest in war; you can find wars throughout history with 3rd parties providing funding as a means of earning profit. The Mutato posted:Most people with the talent to be a successful assassin know that being an assassin would make them filthy rich. However very very few them would want to become assassins. But assassins exist, so doesn't that undermine your entire argument? Maybe you need to think about your analogy more carefully It just takes one very wealthy person to fund a host of DROs that go to war with other DROs. Failing that, DROs are profit-generating corporate entities; they could fund themselves or others as a kind of investment strategy. The Mutato posted:Yeah all the other DROs are pretty keen to stop you, and that doesn't sound like a very motivated soldier. For what reason? Other DROs could invest, too. Other DROs could choose not to get involved at all, for lack of an economic incentive. Some might choose to join together in a defensive alliance, but where would their war funding come from? They would need to find the same kinds of wealthy benefactors, but these investors would receive nothing in return, unlike the investors who invest in aggression. Furthermore, why do these other DROs feel that they have a legitimate reason to stop you? Why can't you just make up a bunch of legitimate-sounding reasons and claim that you're cutting through red tape by taking the righteous and just action according to libertarian principles? Your entire argument is worthless The Mutato posted:No, but the DROs don't. Unless you want to subscribe to the hardcore IS DRO who charges an expensive premium for all the guns and weapons and bombs they are buying up. And once again, once one DRO becomes and obvious threat, the larger and more popular DROs will quickly band together to remove it. Who says that the IS DRO isn't the most popular one? Alternatively, what if the most popular DROs run on such razor-thin margins that they're unable to afford the kind of arms that the well-funded IS DRO can afford, since its members are all zealots and war profiteers?
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Oct 3, 2014 08:57
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The Mutato posted:The point is getting along peacefully is in their economic best interests. Who is paying for the education, indoctrination and training of these child soldiers. "Hmm, why is my protection bill so high this month? Oh, child soldiers? Why the gently caress am I paying for child soldiers?" - Sicilian DRO client. You're giving way too much credit to the DRO, and you're assuming that one day the charges would suddenly increase. We're going in circles here: it's not necessary for the DRO to raise rates, they've either always been high enough to cover the cost of a standing army (for defensive purposes, we swear) or they can acquire investment capital through 3rd parties or through DRO customers who are interested in profiting from a nice glory-filled war. Seriously, why should I trade with The Mutato Wonder Emporium if my DRO is 10x bigger, 10x better equipped, and already has a standing army for "protection" purposes? I'll send out a newsletter
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Oct 3, 2014 09:05
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The Mutato posted:My point exactly, it is more difficult to get people to fight for immoral reasons in a free society. It is easy to create those reasons when you control the society from the top down - much harder from the bottom up. It's really not. Please, for the love of God stop posting and read a history book. Better yet, read a few dozen. Furthermore, what the gently caress is a DRO if not a top-down organization?
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Oct 3, 2014 09:09
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