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VitalSigns posted:Sorry my post was long Oh don't think for a minute I was trying to insinuate any sort of error on your part- I'm just pointing out we never really get much in the way of good answers and rational debate. The general trend is endless circular logic and recursion loops of MAH FREEDOMS and EVIL STATE and what have you. It often seems pointless to me to bother asking- especially when Jrod actually answered my post in a way I find particularly horrifying.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:06
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What happens if a DRO or companies in the DRO network are just too valuable to refuse to do business with or invade? Say Russia DRO invades what is former Ukraine because they want some free loot and farming lands. Now all the DROs that border Russia DRO's customers now fear Russia DRO invasion. However, Russia DRO is owned by the same shell company (Rossiya) that owns the biggest gas producer in all of Europe (Gasprom), and even if the DROs that border Russia DRO feel threatened by Russia DRO, their customers won't tolerate having their gas bills skyrocket or outright losing their only source of gas in the area because their DRO felt like getting into an expensive unwinnable war against a bigger DRO. So, what happens, what will punish Russia DRO from invading former Ukraine now?
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Oct 3, 2014 17:10
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The whole libertarian ideal of the NAP is completely unworkable because human nature is a thing that exists. If we were all enlightened pacifists or beep-boop robots then that'd be a completely different story, but we aren't. Even if only 1 out of 10 people is a violent person, those people are going to band together and run roughshod over the rest. To avoid this more people who wouldn't normally be violent will join them and then you begin having in-group and out-group mentalities which makes it trivially easy to convince people to commit violence on the outgroup. You don't need brainwashing or cult indoctrination, all you need to do is convince people that this other group is not as good and deserving of what they have as our group. And that's a thing all humans do all the time.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:15
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Who What Now posted:The whole libertarian ideal of the NAP is completely unworkable because human nature is a thing that exists. If we were all enlightened pacifists or beep-boop robots then that'd be a completely different story, but we aren't. Which, as we both know, is something Jrod and crew will never accept, and may not even acknowledge. You know, what with the historical evidence being so overwhelming as to leave one paralyzed choosing where to even begin.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:17
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Rockopolis posted:Valhalla DRO sounds like it'd make for a fun game. Without diving into the current "literature" I can use my ex libertarian ki to ascertain that articles would be split into two groups: 1) a JD Tucille approach that would portray him as a reclaimer of unjustly confiscated wealth, and a Hoppeian approach that would portray him as a multicultural left-wing terrorist. The latter is edgier, so is probably in the majority.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:18
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Captain_Maclaine posted:You know, what with the historical evidence being so overwhelming as to leave one paralyzed choosing where to even begin. Even if history weren't a vast and ancient conspiracy by statists to deny revealed truths, it still wouldn't matter because jrodefeld posted:I don't have a comprehensive and exhaustive enough understanding of each and every war of aggression that States have engaged in to make such a sweeping statement. No amount of evidence can contradict the truths that the Glory of Glories hath revealèd unto us, PBUH.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:21
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VitalSigns posted:Even if history weren't a vast and ancient conspiracy by statists to deny revealed truths, it still wouldn't matter because Hey now, that's not fair. Jrod is perfectly willing to be convinced, remember? jrodefeld posted:This is not a court of law. This is a casual discussion and debate. I don't require peer reviewed empirical studies, I would instead be quite satisfied with logical arguments that are consistent and rationally defended. We just haven't been consistent or have rationally defended our positions. Unlike Jrod who has consistently and rationally asserted that he is right and we are wrong and that it's simply obvious. So obvious he doesn't ever need to give specific examples. And he has no end of articles that he can post in full so he doesn't even need to do any sort of thinking for himself. I mean, we can't expect him to have to fully defend his own view points in his own words, the poor thing.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:29
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Who What Now posted:The whole libertarian ideal of the NAP is completely unworkable because human nature is a thing that exists. If we were all enlightened pacifists or beep-boop robots then that'd be a completely different story, but we aren't. And also states are obviously pretty self sustaining. Once a state is in place we now they can survive and expand using both carrots (join our elite!) or sticks (join or we burn your house). It's interesting to me that the libertarian views the state as obviously benefitting a cartel of elites, but then downplays the incentive to start up a state. If states are so great for the elites the the lightbulb "I should start a state!" is going to go off in more than one person's head.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:30
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That is probably as much of a walkback as I've ever seen, well done jrodefeld! You'll be a real anarchist in no time. Also I am really feeling Valhalla DRO, this could be the next Zybourne Clock. Zombies are over with, the world is ready for AR-15 wielding Viking fiction.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:30
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Who What Now posted:We just haven't been consistent or have rationally defended our positions. Unlike Jrod who has consistently and rationally asserted that he is right and we are wrong and that it's simply obvious. So obvious he doesn't ever need to give specific examples. And he has no end of articles that he can post in full so he doesn't even need to do any sort of thinking for himself. I mean, we can't expect him to have to fully defend his own view points in his own words, the poor thing. "I don't care how much you tell me that you can just look outside and see that the sky is blue. This is a debate, empirical facts are not required and I can logically show you a priori the sky is orange QED"
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Oct 3, 2014 17:33
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SedanChair posted:That is probably as much of a walkback as I've ever seen, well done jrodefeld! You'll be a real anarchist in no time. A world where one is not judged for the sex, or their creed, or the color of their skin, but on whether or not they can hit a rival DRO agent from 200 yards. -EDIT- VVVVVVVV Yeah, we realize that. That's what makes post-DRO tribal fiction so compelling; its but the most entertaining and most likely scenario to arise in their worldview. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Oct 3, 2014 |
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Oct 3, 2014 17:41
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How are DROs even going to send out propaganda? There's no system for it in libertopia! Shadowrun is the closest thing people have thus far imagined, a world ruled by corporations but even that doesn't go far enough to explain how libertopia would work at all. Libertarianism can only exist as the hot pornography of those protected by a state actor. All the technology you take for granted is gone, all the societal niceties are smoke. Your spend time arguing about the nature of semi civilized DROs while really not thinking hard enough about how much closer you will be in Somalia than a feudal system. You're literally arguing politics with a doomsday cult. They only want to talk about how you're totally wrong about their Austrian economics and not about how they have no plan for people to live beyond week zero never mind year zero Jrod, how do people get water in your society? .
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Oct 3, 2014 17:41
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Did you guys see last month's jobs numbers? Almost 250k. How is such a thing possible with ObaMAO's high taxes and regulations?
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Oct 3, 2014 17:42
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Mr Interweb posted:Did you guys see last month's jobs numbers? Almost 250k. How is such a thing possible with ObaMAO's high taxes and regulations? Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy spotted. Obviously, theory tells us that if Obama had abolished taxes, ended social security, and deregulated everything the economy would have rebounded even faster. The sluggish recovery we're seeing is happening in spite of Obama.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:47
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VitalSigns posted:Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy spotted. Remember back in the run-up to the 2012 election when Romney spokesmen were claiming that any economic recovery that occurred was because the business sector was happy that they were about to get one of their own in the White House, and had nothing whatsoever to do with anything Obama had done? Good times, man.
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Oct 3, 2014 17:49
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I think the inheritance thing is kinda important. Like in Chinese legal theory, if you boot out the current dynasty and install your own, transfer of legal title is considered to have already taken place, making what appears to be an aggressive conquest actually a recovery of stolen property. It's just part and parcel of the title, an implicit contractual condition of ownership. Talmonis posted:To the libertarian, Robin Hood is the villain of the story. A dastardly monster who steals from the rich and gives to the poor. Remember, these are the same people who consider Ebeneezer Scrooge to be a true hero and captain of industry until he goes soft. Well yeah, that's obvious, but what are the forces driving and shaping Robin Hood in Libertopia? What does he do, and why? I mean, he's got a rationality, a morality, completely alien to that society. Is he less like Robin Hood and more like Drizzt Dro'Urden? Is Menzoberranzan Libertarian? SedanChair posted:Without diving into the current "literature" I can use my ex libertarian ki to ascertain that articles would be split into two groups: 1) a JD Tucille approach that would portray him as a reclaimer of unjustly confiscated wealth, and a Hoppeian approach that would portray him as a multicultural left-wing terrorist. The latter is edgier, so is probably in the majority. Hmm the second one, on the oyher hand...Valhalla DRO is cool and all, but I could see like, black trans Robin Hood in Libertopia being really interesting. It'd basically be setting the game to Rockopolis fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Oct 3, 2014 |
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Oct 3, 2014 17:59
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So libertopia would have the mandate of heaven is what you're saying? 
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Oct 3, 2014 18:04
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Jrode and Mutato, I think this whole exchange is very useful for you. What this tells you is if you just dropped the NAP and admitted to wanting full blown warlords it would not only make your ideology more honest, but also more appealing!
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Oct 3, 2014 18:05
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Rockopolis posted:Valhalla DRO is cool and all, but I could see like, black trans You can just stop right there. Non-traditional gender or skin color is all by itself an aggression against a Hoppean Libertarian covenant community, and the local Ko-operative Kovenant Kommunity DRO already has the right to use retaliatory force to enslave or kill this thing in self-defense just for showing its face, before it ever took a single dollar from a rich man.
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Oct 3, 2014 18:07
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VitalSigns posted:You can just stop right there. Non-traditional gender or skin color is all by itself an aggression against a Hoppean Libertarian covenant community, and the local Ko-operative Kovenant Kommunity DRO already has the right to use retaliatory force to enslave or kill this thing in self-defense just for showing its face, before it ever took a single dollar from a rich man. Does driving down property values constitute an initiation of force? Ha, what am I thinking, of course it does, so the Ko-Operative Kovenant Kommunity DRO is not only morally justified in what they are doing, but are justified in doing it preemptively.
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Oct 3, 2014 18:10
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Who What Now posted:Does driving down property values constitute an initiation of force? Yes, if it violates the community's covenant or HOA Hans Hermann Hoppe, My Battle With the Thought Police posted:In my book Democracy, The God That Failed I not only defend the right to discrimination as implied in the right to private property, but I also emphasize the necessity of discrimination in maintaining a free society and explain its importance as a civilizing factor. In particular, the book also contains a few sentences about the importance, under clearly stated circumstances, of discriminating against communists, democrats, and habitual advocates of alternative, non-family centered lifestyles, including homosexuals. Murray Rothbard, The New 'Fusionism': A Movement for Our Time posted:In a country, or a world, of totally private property, including streets, and private contractual neighborhoods consisting of property-owners, these owners can make any sort of neighborhood-contracts they wish. In practice, then, the country would be a truly “gorgeous mosaic,” … ranging from rowdy Greenwich Village-type contractual neighborhoods, to socially conservative homogeneous WASP neighborhoods. Remember that all deeds and covenants would once again be totally legal and enforceable, with no meddling government restrictions upon them. Murray Rothbard, Nations By Consent, Decomposing the Nation-State posted:With every locale and neighborhood owned by private firms, corporations, or contractual communities, true diversity would reign, in accordance with the preferences of each community. Some neighborhoods would be ethnically or economically diverse, while others would be ethnically or economically homogeneous. Some localities would permit pornography or prostitution or drugs or abortion, others would prohibit any or all of them. The prohibitions would not be state imposed, but would simply be requirements for residence or use of some person’s or community’s land area. Selling your home to a negro or a fruit is an initation of force against the Co-operative Covenant Community! As is inviting them to dinner, treating them in your hospital, or even letting them use your road after sundown. And before sundown. And during sundown. Of course, democrats are against diversity and want to force us all to conform to the same model of execrable multiculturalism instead of letting the land be a gorgeous mosaic where each volk reaches their volkseie through the constructive process of aparte ontwikkeling which of course can only occur under a free apartheid system. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Oct 3, 2014 |
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Oct 3, 2014 18:20
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So does that mean if I made my Knights Templar DRO, and some of my customers decided to take up residence in Jerusalem, the holiest of Christian cities, my DRO could preemptively stop all those infidels there from lowering the property value of my client's homes (as we all know, infidels lack the moral guidance that being a Christian offers us, and so they cannot be trusted to not start murdering and stealing from my God fearing clients) by forcibly removing the offending infidels from Jerusalem? That would be a good start, but I'm worried the presence of infidels in Bethlehem might also drive down my clients property values, or at least the values would be higher if my clients felt safe from being assaulted* by infidels as they visited more of the holy lands... *using the Templar definition of assault, where so much as gazing upon the infidel is an assault on our souls.
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Oct 3, 2014 18:29
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DrProsek posted:So does that mean if I made my Knights Templar DRO, and some of my customers decided to take up residence in Jerusalem, the holiest of Christian cities, my DRO could preemptively stop all those infidels there from lowering the property value of my client's homes (as we all know, infidels lack the moral guidance that being a Christian offers us, and so they cannot be trusted to not start murdering and stealing from my God fearing clients) by forcibly removing the offending infidels from Jerusalem? That would be a good start, but I'm worried the presence of infidels in Bethlehem might also drive down my clients property values, or at least the values would be higher if my clients felt safe from being assaulted* by infidels as they visited more of the holy lands... Yes, but then you have to worry about Templar DRO coming after you.
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Oct 3, 2014 18:32
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Keep in mind that the "Christians" living there are unmanly, perfumed, Greek-speaking schismatics, at least as untrustworthy as any infidel, so you'd be compromising your self-defense if you were discriminate in your butchery of the population of Jerusalem.
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Oct 3, 2014 18:35
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See? Revengeance difficulty.Raskolnikov38 posted:So libertopia would have the mandate of heaven is what you're saying? Pretty much, yeah. Assuming they've waded through the usual amount of blood to get it, I'm wondering what they do with their shiny Actually, I'm a lot more worried about how they're going to handle the horse nomad problem, which historically directly correlates with devolution of state power and assets. It's not we can build a wall beforehand to keep them out, these days they're all air cavalry and can just fly over.
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Oct 3, 2014 18:40
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This thread is going places       quote:Hans-Hermann Hoppe, My
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Oct 3, 2014 19:48
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SedanChair posted:This thread is going places We need one for Lemmy.
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Oct 3, 2014 19:52
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Talmonis posted:We need one for Lemmy. If we truly needed it, the market would have already provided a Lemmy emoticon; or the market isn't free enough yet to provide all emoticon needs. I'm unsure.
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Oct 3, 2014 20:03
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Rhjamiz posted:"I don't care how much you tell me that you can just look outside and see that the sky is blue. This is a debate, empirical facts are not required and I can logically show you a priori the sky is orange QED" It is an undeniable fact that the sky is orange *text-dumps a libertarian essay* see wasn't it nice that we could just logic out this conclusion together?
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Oct 3, 2014 20:07
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Rhjamiz posted:"I don't care how much you tell me that you can just look outside and see that the sky is blue. This is a debate, empirical facts are not required and I can logically show you a priori the sky is orange QED"
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Oct 3, 2014 20:11
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"Of course you think that the sky is blue, because you were told that it was blue in a State-run school. The State has a strong incentive to indoctrinate people to believe that the sky is blue instead of orange."
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Oct 3, 2014 20:13
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Rockopolis posted:See? Revengeance difficulty. Temujin DRO operates within the full legal confines of Libertopia. Is our hard earned Purestrain Gold not the same as yours? If the areas we have rightfully taken over were in compliance with their contracts then there would not have been a need to destroy their cities utterly and enslave the entire population, which if I remind you, is a known legal consequence of Libertopia's rule of law and an accepted outcropping of the contract system as argued by Libertopian legal scholars.
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Oct 3, 2014 20:28
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VitalSigns posted:Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy spotted. I know you're joking, and while that's something I've heard actual conservatives say, but that's actually quite a significant admission. It means that they acknowledge that you can have high growth despite higher taxes and regulations (even if said high growth isn't theoretically as high as it could be according to them).
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Oct 3, 2014 23:48
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Mr Interweb posted:I know you're joking, and while that's something I've heard actual conservatives say, but that's actually quite a significant admission. It means that they acknowledge that you can have high growth despite higher taxes and regulations (even if said high growth isn't theoretically as high as it could be according to them). It's like that Paul Mooney standup bit/koan "The price of gas is so high, it's low."
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Oct 4, 2014 00:27
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Libertopia, bringing ethnic/ideological/religions cleansing to your neighborhood....again and again. "We are happy to inform you that Nauvoo DRO has attained a majority stake in your community! We look forward to a wonderful, Mormon experience working and living together, both here and when we finally get to Kolob. Please bring all your coffee, alcoholic beverages, and immodest clothing to out community center for burning, as defined on our charter. Failing to do so will be considered initiation of violence toward our peaceful community due to breach of contract. And do not lose the receipt scrolls from our religious services, as an attendance record inferior to 95% will incur our Heresy surcharge of 20% of your property." *One cross-country move later* "Welcome to the Galt DRO! We are pleased to have you join our society of achievement, effort, and idealism. We hope you enjoyed the complimentary ebook edition of Atlas Shrugged; it's our way of showing our regard and our hopes of many fully-voluntary monetary/industrial/coital transactions in the future! We also bring you the good news that the Aryan Individuality has won the recent bidding contest to write new laws into our Covenant, so please supply a copy of your family tree (EasyAncestry (tm) offers a discount for family deals! EasyAncestry, keeping you in touch with your roots.) and genetic profile so we can determine if you will need to be fitted into our new, special color-coded jumpsuits to denote your access to venues, health facilities, and potential mates." *Vroooom....* "This notice is an official Expulsion order by Megafreedom Inc. It has been brought to our attention that you have refused to perform fellatio for your employer, Mr. Andrew, when prompted to do so. Your contract does not specifically forbid any such requests, so he was entirely within his rights. We feel very strongly about liberty in our community: you are allowed to use any sort of contraception you prefer when your employer mounts you, and Mr. Andrew can demand any service he feels is justified by the amount he pays you. It's a two-way street. Your properties are now forfeit to Mr. Andrew as reparations for your unlawful breach of contract, after the fees for the work of our relocation squad and legal teams have been deducted. You have 48 (forty-eight) hours to leave our borders, after which any Megafree membership holder in good standing can claim you as personal property under statute 43.119." *Later still...* "There has been too much violence, too much pain. None here are without sin. But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk away. Give me the pump, the oil, the gasoline, and the whole compound, and I’ll spare your lives. Just walk away; I will give you safe passage in the wasteland. Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror." Ahh, who are we kidding. Lord Humongous could never be a libertarian. He understand at least one person's pain.
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Oct 4, 2014 01:57
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poo poo, man, Lord Humongous comes across as a fuckin' saint in comparison to those entirely reasonable potential DROs. Hell I might even consider joining his ragtag crew of 80s hairband homo/bisexual rapehappy bloodthirsty psychopaths. Sure there'll be suffering but at least we'll be HONEST about it, and you'll have a reasonable chance of actually enjoying a sense of community genuinely free from internal strife and discrimination- it's a simple matter of "us vs them", otherwise everyone in the group is largely equal and treated fairly. Humongous genuinely loves and cares for all of his freaks.
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Oct 4, 2014 02:10
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Obviously if the DRO didn't live up to its end of the bargain it wouldn't stay in business for very long. As we all know, no business that has ever committed fraud or human rights abuses has lasted long after being charged.
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Oct 4, 2014 03:03
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Serriouspost for a second: to be fair to Libertarians, Knights Templar DRO would basically run into all the problems of invading the Holy Lands that a Catholic terrorist group today would: local armies resist, nations supporting the group hit with sanctions and internal resistance as people protest their government's support for the terrorists. If none of these stop the group from taking over the Holy Lands, and if the sanctions either aren't effective or if the countries are just too important to the world economy to cut off ties with, then welp, looks like the Knights Templar just got some land. Also to be fair, this is in fact something I mentioned before: the only solutions to problems Libertarianism offers are solutions that already exist, it just makes pointless and often needlessly convoluted changes to the status quo that don't really fix any current problems while introducing new ones (such as destroying all safety nets). The idea that Libertarianism ends wars because it isn't profitable is word for word the same as the idea that globalization will end war because it'll just be cheaper and easier to just trade for what you want instead of killing. Turns out, people are dicks. They'll kill each other even if it makes no economic sense.
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Oct 4, 2014 03:16
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SedanChair posted:That is probably as much of a walkback as I've ever seen, well done jrodefeld! You'll be a real anarchist in no time. One of the things I really like Valhalla DRO for is the knowledge that, should I die in glorious conquest, they'll take care of the children I've left behind. They'll be provided the very best in education, drugs, and weapons training for the day they take my place! All while being hosted in a modern facility with similar children who they will understand and bond with!
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Oct 4, 2014 03:16
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paragon1 posted:One of the things I really like Valhalla DRO for is the knowledge that, should I die in glorious conquest, they'll take care of the children I've left behind. They'll be provided the very best in education, drugs, and weapons training for the day they take my place! All while being hosted in a modern facility with similar children who they will understand and bond with! Honestly, no lie; if I woke up and found myself living in Libertopia, I would join right up with Valhalla DRO.
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Oct 4, 2014 04:40
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