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DoctorWhat posted:Lovecraft would have been a Troper. No he wouldn't be- for one he would be too xenophobic to appreciate the Animes, for two he wouldn't be nearly pedophile enough to make up for that, and for third, he actually wrote poo poo.
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Oct 4, 2014 18:21
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Fourth, did not actually have an obsession with comprehensive world building the way half the the tvtropes "writing" crew does.
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Oct 4, 2014 18:27
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And don't forget he actually had a wife.
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Oct 4, 2014 19:50
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Fifth, he wrote genuinely good stories once in a while. 'The Color Out Of Space' is fantastic, and, better yet, contains as close to zero racism as Lovecraft can accomplish.
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Oct 4, 2014 20:07
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Darth Walrus posted:Fifth, he wrote genuinely good stories once in a while. 'The Color Out Of Space' is fantastic, and, better yet, contains as close to zero racism as Lovecraft can accomplish. The least racist Lovecraft story is about a color that isn't supposed to be there. 
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Oct 4, 2014 20:10
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LaughMyselfTo posted:The least racist Lovecraft story is about a color that isn't supposed to be there. Are you a child?
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Oct 4, 2014 20:44
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LaughMyselfTo posted:The least racist Lovecraft story is about a color that isn't supposed to be there. The least racist (to the point of being actually progressive) Sherlock Holmes story is 'The Adventure of the Yellow Face'.
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Oct 4, 2014 21:16
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Here's something that I always take into account when considering the viewpoints of the past. Picture yourself just going through your day, and suddenly a time machine pops up and out steps your great, great grandchild (and let's assume this doesn't shock you so hard you're reduced to an incomprehensible mess). Then picture that in the course of conversation, your ancestor condemns you for having a job. Not the job you have, not the fact you could have another job or should seek your dream job, not how well you do your job, just the fact you have a job at all. Wouldn't you think this viewpoint is insane? Even if they explained everything about how this mindset came about and it all made sense to you, would you be able to wrap your head around such a mindset? It's the same case if you went back in time and told people like Lovecraft their opinions were wrong and harmful. They are most likely completely incapable of understanding it. They really are products of their time: no matter how wrong current times says they are, they cannot grasp that. For Lovecraft, a gigantic bundle of issues, it's even worse. Now, this does not EXCUSE or CONDONE them. They are still racists. If people feel that this means their replications should be removed from modern things, fine. But ultimately, you have to cut some slack to people who have no ability to understand what's to come. Just some, though.
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Oct 4, 2014 21:55
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hi 5 the punk work sucks
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Oct 4, 2014 21:57
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Lovecraft was racist even compared to his contemporaries.
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Oct 4, 2014 21:58
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Lovecraft later in life wrote to other people how he considered himself to have been way too racist/nationalist which should really be enough to get people to shut up about how he wasn't that racist.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:00
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Lovecraft was born in 1890 to parents who were alive during the time of slavery. The Birth of a Nation was the world's first real blockbuster film, released just two years before Lovecraft's writing career began. The KKK was a significant political force throughout most of his life. Yes, Lovecraft was racist as all hell, but it becomes much more understandable when we put it in these contexts. Also racist as hell but usually given a pass: F. Scott Fitzgerald, who in his final finished novel refers to a dead black man as "friend of the family scrap."
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Oct 4, 2014 22:21
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She was...a negress
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Oct 4, 2014 22:26
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Cornwind Evil posted:Here's something that I always take into account when considering the viewpoints of the past. You are aware that Lovecraft lived in the early 20th century, not the early 13th century?
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Oct 4, 2014 22:27
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Lottery of Babylon posted:You are aware that Lovecraft lived in the early 20th century, not the early 13th century? Considering how much people can change from one generation to the next, that doesn't really make much difference. Severe racists in the early 20th century are as incapable of understanding how wrong their viewpoints are as anti-semites in the 13th. Edit: Also that. VVVVVVVVV Cornwind Evil fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 22:30
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Nobody really gives a poo poo about whether it was a "product of his time," people are talking about idiot fans who can't deal with "This thing I like is racist as gently caress" because they're incapable of understanding that "thing I like" is not the same as "my identity." Also Lovecraft was hella racist and xenophobic for his time so yeah.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:34
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But he did start to understand he was wrong in the last few years before he died. I don't have one of the compilations of his letters handy but he started to write to people saying he was thinking being racist was wrong and specifically that his story "The Street" (which is one of the most racist and xenophobic stories he ever wrote) was definitely wrong. The guy didn't think he was "not really racist" or whatever so stop trying to argue that for him.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:34
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If someone came from the future and gave a reasoned reason for why something I do was wrong. I would stop doing it.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:34
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Future man: "Ancestor, it is wrong to drive a car and you will be judged harshly for it" Me:"Fair enough"
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Oct 4, 2014 22:37
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I think faggots should all be stoned to death. You're not allowed to think less of me for it because it's only the 21st century and these things take time so I just can't help it.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:42
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Nintendo Kid posted:The guy didn't think he was "not really racist" or whatever so stop trying to argue that for him. I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that this is a boring loving argument when we could be making fun of Tropers.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:47
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H. P. Lovecraft? More like H. P. Loves-to-take-over-the-thread-and-derail-it
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Oct 4, 2014 22:49
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Here, have some examples of tropers' concept of evil: Cruelest thing you had done in a game? flamemario 12 posted:Releasing some of my Pokemon in Pokemon Y. MONSTROUS! Zero Dark Flirty posted:Back in my Call of Duty days, I was playing with a friend in Hardcore mode. He was going ham on everyone, and was one kill away from a Tactical Nuke. UNFORGIVABLE! Dark Elf Princess posted:Any form of Chao abuse in the Sonic the Hedgehog games, wherever they are. They are innocent creatures, but that doesn't mean that the player can beat them up (even in the Sonic Adventure games, they can die from too much abuse). It's terrible if you think about it. THOSE POOR POLYGONS!
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Oct 4, 2014 22:56
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GIANT OUIJA BOARD posted:Lovecraft was born in 1890 to parents who were alive during the time of slavery. Edgar Allan Poe was raised by an actual slaver and yet he never wrote a story about how grotesque black men was.
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Oct 4, 2014 22:59
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sweeperbravo posted:H. P. Lovecraft? More like H. P. Loves-to-take-over-the-thread-and-derail-it Lovecraft Pleads the Fifth: The Color Out of Space Anyway, back to trope-making-fun-of: Nightmare Fuel: JumpStart Adventures 4th Grade: Haunted Island posted:A Survival Horror game made with fourth graders in mind? Ho yes... All this is for a game aimed at 4th graders. (In all fairness, apparently it was kinda scary for kids and the game had to be recalled, so perhaps there's a little inkling of honesty in that mess of words quoted above. But the operative words here are "scary for kids" - why the hell would a full-grown man still be terrified about it? Just goes to show how childish tropers really are.)
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Oct 4, 2014 23:19
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Alhazred posted:Edgar Allan Poe was raised by an actual slaver and yet he never wrote a story about how grotesque black men was. "Oh, my golly, Massa Will! ain't dis here my lef' eye for sartain?" roared the terrified Jupiter, placing his hand upon his right organ of vision, and holding it there with a desperate pertinacity, as if in immediate dread of his master's attempt at a gouge.
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Oct 4, 2014 23:23
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BlueDude posted:Lovecraft Pleads the Fifth: The Color Out of Space 4th graders shouldn't be looking at or posting on TV Tropes, for all sorts of reasons.
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Oct 4, 2014 23:39
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BlueDude posted:
The nightmare fuel pages were originally intended for things that might scare children, things that supposedly grown adults find scary were separate pages, that got combined at some point. But this is tropers we are talking about, so they might actually find the game scary.
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Oct 5, 2014 00:55
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The Heavenator posted:The nightmare fuel pages were originally intended for things that might scare children, things that supposedly grown adults find scary were separate pages, that got combined at some point. But this is tropers we are talking about, so they might actually find the game scary. I thought the whole point of nightmare fuel was that it was stuff that wasn't SUPPOSED to be scary, or at least not very scary, but ended up coming across that way anyway. Or do I have it mixed up with something else? Or does it even matter Of course this being tropes, you must include everything that wasn't supposed to be scary but was, was supposed to be scary but wasn't, was supposed to be scary and was, wasn't supposed to be scary and wasn't, might have been supposed to not be supposed to maybe be scary and possibly was for certain people if you know about Dumb Reference XYZ, or had a young anime girl in it somewhere.
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Oct 5, 2014 01:11
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sweeperbravo posted:I thought the whole point of nightmare fuel was that it was stuff that wasn't SUPPOSED to be scary, or at least not very scary, but ended up coming across that way anyway. Or do I have it mixed up with something else? Or does it even matter Nightmare Fuel is just "this thing is very scary." According to the page, you're talking about Accidental Nightmare Fuel. Of course, neither of these are actually tropes as normal people understand them, but that's par for the course.
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Oct 5, 2014 01:33
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Nightmare Fuel was originally "This is in a children's show, but it's scary, what the gently caress". This stuff basically. Nightmare Fuel Unleaded was the "intentionally scary and in adult stuff" section. It and Nightmare Fuel were merged so there isn't a distinction anymore. While it can be funny to go "haha, tropers are scared of kid's shows", it should be taken in mind that at least some of it is written from the perspective of being a kid that was originally intended.
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Oct 5, 2014 01:39
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I checked out the discussion page for Nightmare Fuel and found an argument over "Real Life Nightmare Fuel"quote:Maybe Nightmare Fuel should have no Real Life examples... For the same reason we don't have Real Life examples for Crapsack World, Cold-Blooded Torture, Sex Slave, and so forth. First, we don't want to scar the innocent tropers mentally, we don't want to drive the tropers to insanity and misanthropy. Second, it might become a Flame Bait, like an entry for Hitler's holocaust campaign invoking Godwin's Law and causing a massive Flame War... quote:Nah we should re state it i mean this is becomeing to lighter and softer quote:Scar the tropers mentally? They aren't all kids, just a thought. Plus i'm already scarred. I AM A DARK AND EDGY FIFTEEN YEAR OLD quote:We need a Nightmare Fuel wiki like the Fetish Fuel one. Problem is, I have no idea how to make one. It had lots of info in one place, and a large majority of tropers enjoyed it. It seem a waste to just get rid of it all. I agree that this site isn't the best place for it, but another affiliated wiki might be the way to go. Thoughts? Granted, I have never bothered to set up a wiki but my impression is that it's about as difficult as falling off a log, right? Then we get into FREE SPEECH!!! territory! Yaaay! quote:Yes, let's ban everything and "Think of The Children."I'm offended by other nightmare fuel threads as well, why don't we ban them too? a mod posted:The majority of tropers voted to remove the pages. They are not coming back at the request of a few people who can't seem to go elsewhere for their scare fixes. quote:I have a strong feeling that tropers who bother to vote are either soccer moms or fakes. Mostly it's a lot of tropers whining that they have to get their Real Life Nightmare Fuel somewhere else, because when I want creepy things, I go straight to a page listing public service announcements and "there was a spooky skeleton in my children's game."
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Oct 5, 2014 01:55
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WickedHate posted:Nightmare Fuel Unleaded was the "intentionally scary and in adult stuff" section. It and Nightmare Fuel were merged so there isn't a distinction anymore. While it can be funny to go "haha, tropers are scared of kid's shows", it should be taken in mind that at least some of it is written from the perspective of being a kid that was originally intended. Well, they are mentally children so I guess we should keep that in mind anyway
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Oct 5, 2014 02:06
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Alhazred posted:Edgar Allan Poe was raised by an actual slaver and yet he never wrote a story about how grotesque black men was. He did write an essay in support of slavery though.
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Oct 5, 2014 02:10
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Maxwell Lord posted:He did write an essay in support of slavery though. Do you have a link to that? Poe certainly believed that black people were inferior, but I don't think he was a big fan of slavery - he inherited one slave at the age of 20, and freed him immediately.
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Oct 5, 2014 06:55
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:Do you have a link to that? Poe certainly believed that black people were inferior, but I don't think he was a big fan of slavery - he inherited one slave at the age of 20, and freed him immediately. Now I'm curious. Was that out of a genuine moment of ethical clarity, or him just deciding "there's no way in hell I can support us both, and selling you is too much of a hassle, so... You're free to go, I guess"?
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Oct 5, 2014 07:30
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Regalingualius posted:Now I'm curious. Was that out of a genuine moment of ethical clarity, or him just deciding "there's no way in hell I can support us both, and selling you is too much of a hassle, so... You're free to go, I guess"? Freeing a slave wasn't simply a matter of saying "you're free to go", you had to hire a lawyer and pay a bunch of fees. So instead of selling his slave at full price, Poe sold him to a free black family for a pittance* and they went through the process of actually freeing him. That's just what I've learned from a couple sources tonight, I really don't know anything about 19th century slavery. From the sound of it, Poe genuinely wanted to free the slave, but preferred to get a little money to free him instead of freeing the slave at personal expense. * Apparently the going price for a male slave was $500, Poe sold his for $40. I find it really creepy to look up the "value" of a person like this.
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Oct 5, 2014 08:16
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quote:For me, what it comes down to is this:
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Oct 5, 2014 13:53
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Yes yes, what a spot-on analysis of what people desire in their fiction. Surely this is why the "sitcom" never took off as a TV format
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Oct 5, 2014 15:24
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So his two extremes are Jane Austin and the anime about universe sized robots throwing galaxies at each other. I wonder what he must think of work that happens to fall IN-BETWEEN those two subtleties. Like would he look at Apocalypse Now and write it off as trite garbage purely because it could have happened to some one?
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Oct 5, 2014 15:56
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