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Antifreeze Head posted:How small is that panel you have in the garage? It sounds a bit underpowered if it is being serviced by just a 12/2 line. 
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Oct 4, 2014 18:37
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That does not appear to be a UL-listed panelboard. If your garage burns down due to an electrical fire, expect your insurance company to look very hard at that installation and not approve. Since that whole thing is ghetto-rigged, some 15A breakers would be a good idea.
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Oct 4, 2014 18:51
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Wow. Replace that.......thing. What does it look like inside? I'm going to guess this is an equipment box being used as a panel box. That's not good.
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Oct 4, 2014 20:44
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Motronic posted:Wow. Replace that.......thing. No clue, haven't opened it up. I'll take a look at it on my next weekend. Feel free to point me towards what I need to fix it as well. fknlo fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 20:56
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fknlo posted:No clue, haven't opened it up. I'll take a look at it on my next weekend. Any subpanel you like that is actually a subpanel. For specifics I'd need to know if this is just 120V and you want to keep it that way, how many breakers you think you'll need max (including expansion) and what it's being fed with (cable size) and if you're willing to/want to upgrade that and of course how many amps you need out there. Motronic fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 21:27
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I'm in the process of remodeling a kitchen in an 1890's vintage house. I'm finding some conflicting sources: does the fridge need to be on its own GFCI circuit or can I put it on a circuit with other appliances?
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Oct 4, 2014 22:41
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llamaperl2 posted:I'm in the process of remodeling a kitchen in an 1890's vintage house. I'm finding some conflicting sources: does the fridge need to be on its own GFCI circuit or can I put it on a circuit with other appliances? Talk of "need" relates to the building code, which is different everywhere. But generally you want it on its own and not on a GFCI. Motronic posted:Any subpanel you like that is actually a subpanel. For specifics I'd need to know if this is just 120V and you want to keep it that way, how many breakers you think you'll need max (including expansion) and what it's being fed with (cable size) and if you're willing to/want to upgrade that and of course how many amps you need out there. Further to this, it would be good if fknlo could post the main panel as the current output over there isn't likely enough either. Antifreeze Head fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Oct 4, 2014 |
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Oct 4, 2014 22:49
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Antifreeze Head posted:Talk of "need" relates to the building code, which is different everywhere. But generally you want it on its own and not on a GFCI. Thanks!
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Oct 4, 2014 22:55
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Motronic posted:Any subpanel you like that is actually a subpanel. For specifics I'd need to know if this is just 120V and you want to keep it that way, how many breakers you think you'll need max (including expansion) and what it's being fed with (cable size) and if you're willing to/want to upgrade that and of course how many amps you need out there. For now I don't think I'd need any more breakers than what I have. Might need to be able to expand in the future though if I ever pick up projects where I need a welder or stuff like that. I'll probably never do anything outside of general hobby stuff so I shouldn't need to go too crazy. Pretty sure it's just 120V and it's being fed by a single strand of what I think is 12/2? There are markings on the wire going into it but I couldn't find any on what size. None of the cables coming out have marking of any kind that I could find. Antifreeze Head posted:Further to this, it would be good if fknlo could post the main panel as the current output over there isn't likely enough either. I'm scared to post the main panel... One of my future plans is an upgrade to 200 amp service, but I'm trying to save that for next year as I know it isn't going to be even remotely cheap. The house was built in 1937, so who knows what kind of mix of wiring there is. One part of the house is still on a fuse panel as well. There's definitely some work that needs to be done.
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Oct 4, 2014 23:01
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llamaperl2 posted:Thanks! You don't want a nuisance-trip while you're at work spoiling everything in your fridge.
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Oct 4, 2014 23:01
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fknlo posted:For now I don't think I'd need any more breakers than what I have. Might need to be able to expand in the future though if I ever pick up projects where I need a welder or stuff like that. I'll probably never do anything outside of general hobby stuff so I shouldn't need to go too crazy. Pretty sure it's just 120V and it's being fed by a single strand of what I think is 12/2? There are markings on the wire going into it but I couldn't find any on what size. None of the cables coming out have marking of any kind that I could find. You may not even need it as 100 is enough for pretty much everyone but you are correct that 200 amp service will not be cheap. Though you could save some money by doing it yourself if you think you can work really, really fast during the next power outage (don't ever do this). The concern about what is purportedly a panel box in the garage is that it is not a panel box. A real panel box isn't that expensive, you're probably looking at $60 or so if you go to Home Depot. However, those panels are generally for a 100 amp supply. You apparently only have a 20 amp supply running out to the garage, which isn't good enough. You don't necessarily need a panel out there (code where I am says it is ok if all circuits in the garage are off the main panel) but others are quite right in saying what you have should be replaced. As part of that replacement, you'll need to run a proper line out to the garage to supply those 100 amps, which means you will also need to cram a new breaker into that existing panel. This is where it might get tricky if you don't have any room left in that panel, but your combination of fuse box and more modern panel might work to your benefit. I'm guessing that the fuse box is the main and really all it does anymore is offer a supply to the panel. If that is the case, you can install a new and bigger panel in place of the existing one to give you more room. It would also allow you to drop in GFCIs and AFCIs. And since you're at it, you may as well start checking the wires coming out of that existing panel. Being that a panel is already there, someone may have done you some favours and have already upgraded away from knob and tube, but if they did it 40-50 years ago they may have run aluminum wire. If that's the case, you'll probably want to invest in a great big roll of romex and a fish tape. Did you ever imagine that installing lights in the garage was going to lead you on such an adventure?
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Oct 5, 2014 00:39
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Antifreeze Head posted:Did you ever imagine that installing lights in the garage was going to lead you on such an adventure? I don't think I'd go that crazy right now. Put in a Real Subpanel in the garage. Feed it Main-lug only, use a 20A breaker in the main panel. Put those two circuits on their own 15A breakers, and call it a day for like $80. Alternatively, just get a cover that fits that box, use it as a junction box for the two runs coming off for lights, swap out the breaker in the main panel with a 15A, and call it a day for like $30. When you do your service upgrade next year, put in something garage-worthy; like a 240V 80A subpanel with 14 spaces. Expect that service upgrade to be a minimum of $1000 and probably closer to $2000 if you do it yourself, and ballpark $5000 for someone else to do it, expecting that cost to go up somewhat if they find anything crazy.
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Oct 5, 2014 01:05
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Put in a Real Subpanel in the garage. Feed it Main-lug only, use a 20A breaker in the main panel. That's exactly what I was going to post. Main lug subpanel, possibly even a 120v one if that's all that's going out there for now. No need to get into main breaker panels without upgrading service.
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Oct 5, 2014 01:09
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llamaperl2 posted:I'm in the process of remodeling a kitchen in an 1890's vintage house. I'm finding some conflicting sources: does the fridge need to be on its own GFCI circuit or can I put it on a circuit with other appliances? you can put it with the other appliances, it's not required to be on it's own per code. usually we run the home-run to the fridge receptacle box and put the GFCI in the next box in line.
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Oct 5, 2014 02:05
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 So I'm not even sure what the hell is going on in there. Only one breaker is even hooked up?  Here's the main panel in the basement. I can pull that cover off if necessary.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:34
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fknlo posted:
Your guess it's just 120 and not 240 is correct. Looks like they didn't realize alternate slots go to alternate halves of the phase-- that panel only has one hot and a neutral (only one of the large screw terminals has a hot wire), so when the top breaker didn't work, they attached the other circuit to the one that did. Whoever put that in didn't know what they were doing. Moving the unconnected breaker up one slot should make it functional-- but IIRC you said it's 14ga, so they should be 15A anyway.
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Oct 5, 2014 04:53
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Also the can is not grounded.
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Oct 5, 2014 05:34
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fknlo posted:
 What is even the point of that box???Also, don't miss the EMT clamps on NM wire! gently caress, post that over in the Crappy Construction Tales thread.
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Oct 5, 2014 05:48
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There is basically nothing done properly in that box. It has every indication of a Joe homeowner bubba'd up job. It needs to come out. Like immediately. Because in addition to everything else already mentioned, the loving ground/neutral bridge screw is in from what I can see. I think. Even without that it still needs to go. This is really bad. Motronic fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 5, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2014 15:18
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kid sinister posted:Sounds like a switch leg, that came after the recent "every switch needs a neutral" code update. Was there a neutral capped off in that box too?  I figured it out, it controls an outlet on the wall opposite in the other room. Whoops.Thanks!
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Oct 5, 2014 22:27
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There was a request to post my main breaker box earlier and here it is: Also, I went to Home Depot today and was totally overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices for panels and breakers. Gonna need some help getting pointed in the right direction for those. Is this the type of breaker I'll need? I need a main lug for the subpanel box, correct? Like this? Or something like this for future upgrades?
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Oct 8, 2014 01:57
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fknlo posted:There was a request to post my main breaker box earlier and here it is: That label on the right side should tell you what type of breaker you need.
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Oct 8, 2014 02:26
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PuTTY riot posted:That label on the right side should tell you what type of breaker you need. Or just take out one of your existing breakers, go down to the store and compare it to theirs.
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Oct 8, 2014 03:49
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kid sinister posted:Or just take out one of your existing breakers, go down to the store and compare it to theirs. Sorry, this isn't for the main panel, this is to replace this monstrosity:
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Oct 8, 2014 04:58
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fknlo posted:There was a request to post my main breaker box earlier and here it is: Thats a Cutler-Hammer panel that takes Eaton/Cutler-Hammer type CH breakers (Eaton bought Cutler-Hammer in '78). I've been told (I have a similar panel) that Cutler-Hammer is Eaton's more upscale line and that's why their stuff costs a bit more than the more residential offerings on the shelf next to them. Its completely optional, but I would look into replacing that subpanel thing with one that takes CH type breakers so you can shuffle things back and forth with the main panel. On the other hand, CH type equipment doesn't usually have the same selection at Home Depot/Lowe's so that's also worth considering. If you decide to go the CH route, you'd probably be looking at: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-125-Amp-8-spaces-Surface-CH-Type-Main-Lug-Loadcenter-CH8L125SP/100143605 or http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-70-Amp-2-Space-Circuit-Surface-CH-Type-Main-Lug-Loadcenter-CH2L70SP/100176423 One of these to feed from the main panel: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-20-Amp-Double-Pole-CH-Type-Breaker-CH220/202281647 And two of these for the subpanel: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-15-Amp-Single-Pole-CH-Type-Breaker-CH115/202281643
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Oct 8, 2014 07:22
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Who wants to break the bad news about the knob and tube to him?
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Oct 8, 2014 13:50
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Where are you seeing that?
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Oct 8, 2014 16:35
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The two breakers right below the one for the dryer are fed by cloth covered wire and don't seem to come from a source at the top with thier own commons. There's also white horizontal piece of wire running across the top and then into the panel seems only to go to the common bar. I'm getting a bit hypnotized trying to trace some of those things and may not be seeing them all properly at this point, but given the age of the house it wouldn't be surprising to have a bit of knob and tube. Plus there are the circuits off that fuse box sub panel.
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Oct 8, 2014 18:21
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True but some older cloth covered wire was 2 conductor only with the conduit being grounded. My parents have a ton of that crap and I know it's not knob/tube. Not saying that's optimal but not 100% KT.
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Oct 8, 2014 19:05
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Antifreeze Head posted:The two breakers right below the one for the dryer are fed by cloth covered wire and don't seem to come from a source at the top with thier own commons. There's also white horizontal piece of wire running across the top and then into the panel seems only to go to the common bar. Looks a lot like standard cloth-covered NM cable to me. Given the opportunity you could rewire it I guess, but unless it's in a really hot attic and the cloth is visibly breaking down it's probably fine-- and certainly not an immediate oh god replace it.
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Oct 8, 2014 21:37
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Qwijib0 posted:Looks a lot like standard cloth-covered NM cable to me. Given the opportunity you could rewire it I guess, but unless it's in a really hot attic and the cloth is visibly breaking down it's probably fine-- and certainly not an immediate oh god replace it. That's what it looks like to me too. Even then, only the outer sheath was woven, the wires both had plastic insulators. Some of that NM style even has the ground wire too.
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Oct 8, 2014 22:35
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it looks like there's one k&t circuit coming in from that piece of emt on the top right. (blue wire on the 4th space down from the main). the flexible stuff next to it is old cloth covered BX..and i doubt that sheathing is carrying any sort of proper ground. the white wire floating across the top of the panel looks like it's big enough to be an old water bond but it's hard to say cuz i can't see where it terminates. it's probably fine but who knows what's down the line/has been hosed with on those k&t circuits given what your sub panel looks like.
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Oct 9, 2014 02:20
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I'm installing some under-cabinet lighting in my kitchen. The switch on the right of the sink controls the garbage disposal and the light directly above the sink in the picture below. I want my new lighting to be controlled by the same switch. The lights will be fixed to the bottom of the cabinets along their entire length, starting on either side of the sink and running away. Sorry for the crappy quality, I had to sneak the picture while my wife was working in the kitchen because I don't want her to know what I'm up to. The goal is to get this all installed while she's working nights this weekend and then she'll go to flip on that one light some day and it'll be all BAM, LIGHTS. Anyhow, what I can't figure is how best to get power to the lights under the cabinets. I want the installation to be as absolutely invisible as possible, no cords running down to plugs, etc. I think running the circuit to the lights on the right will be easy enough: I'll just drill a 3/8" hole into the wall through the lip of the cabinet at the bottom in that recessed cavity under there, and then fish the wire from the light down through the wall and into the box there and pigtail it onto the light switch. But getting across to the other side of the sink and then finding a way to fish the wire out is looking to be a bit trickier. At this point, I'm actually considering going up into the attic (mehhhh) and drilling down through the plate, then just tying in at the light fixture itself. I'd just drill down on either side of the window inside the wall, and fish down through the wall to a hole drilled into the wall just on the under side of the cabinet, and draw my wires up through there. I'm thinking that might be easiest even though it involves an attic crawl because I'd be fishing straight down through the wall, and wouldn't have to deal with trying to fish through a box or anything silly like that. Ideally, whatever I do, I wouldn't be patching/painting any drywall. I guess that's a possibility if I have to, I might have some of the original paint around? Thoughts?
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Oct 10, 2014 03:33
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Bad Munki posted:I'm installing some under-cabinet lighting in my kitchen. The switch on the right of the sink controls the garbage disposal and the light directly above the sink in the picture below. I want my new lighting to be controlled by the same switch. The lights will be fixed to the bottom of the cabinets along their entire length, starting on either side of the sink and running away. Before you do drilling, there is LOTS of electrical code regarding exposed wiring. Answer the following questions: 1. what kind of lights? 2. Any transformers/ballasts? Are they built in or separate? Also, that's an exterior wall. If you have the roof come down directly over that window, then you will not have a lot of room to work in the attic. It won't be impossible up there, just very difficult. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 04:00
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Yeah, I'm aware of the tight space in the attic there. It's cozy, but I bet I can get in there. Probably. Maybe. The lights I got at Lowe's. They're under-cabinet LED lights. They have two cords in the box, one with a regular plug for use on an outlet, and one for connecting to a box they included that has their special little connector doodad and breakouts for regular wiring. The box is just a way to go from romex to the provided patch cable. The lights run directly off 120VAC, with any transformer or what have you in the light itself. Assumedly, the cords they provided are acceptable for being exposed, but also I assume they're NOT acceptable for being concealed, i.e. in-wall. These are the lights I'm looking to install, in various lengths not limited to the one specifically linked: http://goo.gl/Nr8IUG
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Oct 10, 2014 04:17
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I plugged in my toaster this morning and there was a loud pop and a flame shot out of the outlet. Left some black and weirdly silver residue on my hand. I checked the breaker, and nothing was flipped, so I turned the kitchen breakers off for good measure. I unscrewed the outlet and didn't see anything odd. The wiring looked fine and the outlet itself was nice and clean too. I put everything back together and switched the breakers back on. I tested the outlet with an outlet tester, and it checks out fine. What the hell happened? Should I replace the outlet? Edit: Toaster works fine in a separate outlet too.
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Oct 10, 2014 17:15
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I'd probably replace the outlet just on good measure. Flames out of electrical things indicate to me an immediate replacement of said electrical thing. On my own project, I think I figured it out. It's going to involve not having to drill into the plate at the shallowest point of the roof, but will still involve a little attic work, although it'll be much MUCH easier attic work. And two new outlets, but easily installed. Here's a picture with funny colors all over:  Step 1: Cut holes in the wall at the red dots for the to-be-installed outlets. Step 2: Green circuit is currently switched and runs up to the light above the sink. Disconnect that romex at the light, pull it back and out the new outlet hole on the right, giving me plenty to work with for a junction. Step 3: Fish a new wire through along light blue path from the light to the new outlet hole. This'll be easy because there's already a path there with holes bored for the previous wiring. Save time by pulling this one through when I yank the old one out. Now I've got plenty of wire to work with at my new outlet without having had to fish down the entire length of the wall to the switch. Step 4: Add a new line along the yellow path from the light to the left outlet. This'll be a lot easier because the light should be readily accessible from the attic, and the outlet can go anywhere along that leftmost wall, which is an interior wall and should give me all kinds of attic space to work in. Step 5: Install outlets at the two red dots. Step 6: Install the lights themselves, the pink bars. Step 7: Connect the lights to the new outlets by fishing their lamp-cord style wires up behind the cupboards and plugging them into the new outlets. I think this'll work great. It'll be an easy installation, and nothing but the lights themselves will be on the bottom of the cabinets. The outlets will be totally invisible unless you're 8' tall. The only other addition I might consider is running an always-on line from the switch up to the outlet so the outlets can be half-switched, in case I want to install accent lighting up there some time, or have an out of the way place to plug in a stereo or something.
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Oct 10, 2014 18:22
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Step 8: Enjoy delicious box wine. I was with your plan until the fishing of zip cord to the receptacles above the cabinets. Someone more familiar with NEC should chime in on that one.
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Oct 10, 2014 18:32
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Hey man, Franzia's the poo poo. But yeah, that box has been chilling out for months and months now: my in-laws always show up with a couple few boxes in tow, only drink half of it while they're here, and then leave the rest. I'd pick something else, but I can't say I really mind.  Father-in-law also shamelessly keeps my liquor cabinet stocked as well. They're good people.  So yeah, I guess the cord up the back of the cupboards may be a problem, it's not really in-wall, but it's also not really accessible? I don't know. The only problem I'll have is that the plug that actually connects to the light itself is some vaguely-molex three-prong deal that's molded plastic, there's no way I can put a longer wire in without splicing. Which I also would happily do, but as I understand it, that's a no-no. The cords they provided aren't quite zip cord, but they seem close enough. But regardless, they're not long enough to reach the full length of the cupboard, I think. e: scratch that the provided cord with a regular wall plug on it is plenty long enough, but I couldn't get it behind the cupboard without cutting the plug off one end or the other. Regardless, it's a flat three-conductor cord, with the following markings: quote:(UL) E308842 SPT-2 18AAWG(0.824mm2 105°C 300V VW-1 108540-001 (and then a bunch of that stuff repeated after a C(UL) and then) FT1 SHANGYU JINTAO GREEN CONDUCTOR FOR GROUNDING ONLY So yeah, most of that I recognize, not sure if any of that indicates it may be okay for being partially inaccessible? Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Oct 10, 2014 |
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Oct 10, 2014 19:12
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Oh hey, instead of trying to find some way to fish a cord behind and doing a bunch of silly splicing and whatnot, what about going between? That's a 1.5" wide gap that runs from the top to the bottom and almost to the front, save 3/4" or whatever. At that point, it's no more fished through anything than a lamp cord between a couch and the wall. In fact, there's so much space there, I might just do it that way, code be damned.
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Oct 10, 2014 19:31
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