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Cojawfee posted:I don't care about the science, I just don't like how flagrantly wrong it is. No matter the setting, a creature being born out of the inside of an egg and then immediately laying another egg the same size is stupid. It's not just that it's flagrantly wrong to me, it's that they used it as a plot point and then were horribly wrong about it. It's key to the episode that the moon is getting more massive. And it's key to the episode that the moon is an egg. You can go around breaking all the laws of
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Oct 5, 2014 19:23
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think I may have to bow out of this thread. I liked this episode, like this season, think Capaldi's Doctor is an interesting shift and bringing some real tough character conflict in. But here it's "not even the Moffatt apologists can defend this one". If you liked it, that's fine. I'm referring more specifically to the people who tend to denounce everyone in the DW thread as nattering nabobs of negativism, when there's like maybe three people going "I thought that episode was a bit crap" amongst a bunch of "DOCTOR WHO RAWKS  " posts after a given episode.E: also by "Moffat apologists" I refer to (usually the same) people who will willingly, almost gleefully, overlook all of Moffat's flaws (aka the Sandifer Syndrome), usually by attacking those who point them out. I don't recall that you've done that, so you're probably not a "Moffat apologist"? v  v
Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Oct 5, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2014 19:24
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Science fiction has an speculative aspect to it, what if we had technology X and it was widespread and convenient? Or Lacked resource Y how would we as society adapt? Usually predisposing that Humanity doesn't ever change, we remain static but what makes us unique is our tools which are ever changing and ever more powerful. Doctor Who and Star Wars don't go that route. Doctor Who and Star Wars tend to be akin to fantasy in that they are explorations of humanity reflected in fantastical creatures and societies; exploring themes of the format "This is clearly silly here, but we do something similar to ourselves, shouldn't we not be doing this?" Tools vs Spirit. Concept vs Theme. Asimov is a good example of a science fiction novelist who explores a concept, while Tolkien writes a work that explores a theme.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:26
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Cojawfee posted:I don't care about the science, I just don't like how flagrantly wrong it is. No matter the setting, a creature being born out of the inside of an egg and then immediately laying another egg the same size is stupid. Three things: 1: There are examples of animals being born pregnant here on Earth. Aphids are born pregnant. 2: The size of the moon-egg being born is the most retarded thing for you to be sperging out about. People like you are literally the worst parts of sci-fi fandoms. 3: The whole sci-fi/fantasy plot of this episode is window dressing for the relationship aspects, which are the real point of the episode. Stop being a sperglord tard.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:26
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Sydney Bottocks posted:If you liked it, that's fine. I'm referring more specifically to the people who tend to denounce everyone in the DW thread as nattering nabobs of negativism, when there's like maybe three people going "I thought that episode was a bit crap" amongst a bunch of "DOCTOR WHO RAWKS Basically your referring to this loving dude; ProfessorLoomis posted:Seriously, save your breath. You're going up against a viscous hive-mind in this thread. They've formed a little clique in here, and dissenting opinions are met with holier than thou responses. For the record, I'm not so much a Moffat defender these days. That really doesn't account for why I come in here and snipe a little insult every now and then. Honestly, there's so much loving fake altruism and hot air in this thread, it makes me not even wanna be a Doctor Who fan. I keep coming back here though, every couple of days, to see if anyone had anything loving interesting or useful to say about the episode, and all i ever see is morons whining about literally every little loving thing. Even some of you who started pretty cool a year or two ago, now have just as big a stick up your asses as everyone else. It's like you guys hobby is loving finding anything that could be remotely construed as immoral/racist, then acting like white loving knights toward anyone who says otherwise. gently caress it, I typed this out, I'm posting it.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:26
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marktheando posted:That's the first I've heard of the idea that sci fi must be set in the future. There are lots of things I would consider sci fi that aren't in the future. I can think of BSG and that's about it. There are other reasons it's not science fiction (traditionally science fiction is focused around the logical end use of a particular technology or philosophy whereas Star Wars is more akin to Dune which is space feudalism), but I thought "not being related to Earth specifically" would be a good enough shorthand. Or yeah, what Raenir Salazar said.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:27
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computer parts posted:I can think of BSG and that's about it. Really?
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Oct 5, 2014 19:29
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PriorMarcus posted:Basically your referring to this loving dude; Yes, exactly.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:30
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computer parts posted:I can think of BSG and that's about it. There are other reasons it's not science fiction (traditionally science fiction is focused around the logical end use of a particular technology or philosophy whereas Star Wars is more akin to Dune which is space feudalism), but I thought "not being related to Earth specifically" would be a good enough shorthand. Jurassic Park. The X Files. Fringe. Continuum. Independence Day. War of the Worlds. Plan 9 From Outer Space. The Day the Earth Stood Still. I could go on.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:31
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PriorMarcus posted:Really? I mean there's present day/near future stuff (like this episode or War of the Worlds for its contemporary audience) but not much for stuff set in the past. marktheando posted:Jurassic Park. The X Files. Fringe. Continuum. Independence Day. War of the Worlds. Plan 9 From Outer Space. The Day the Earth Stood Still. I could go on. So again, either alien invasions or going into basically fantasy (Fringe and Jurassic Park).
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Oct 5, 2014 19:31
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The reason the 'laying a new moon' doesn't work is that it's it's so contrary to idea of how laying an egg works that anyone who isn't a child has to sit and rationalise it to themselves, and it doing them completely takes them out of the fictional world. Even the people who willingly go along with it needed to stop and think to themselves 'I'll go along with it' rather than just being carried along. The thing about suspension of disbelief - the onus is on the work of fiction to do it for you.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:32
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Raenir Salazar posted:Science fiction has an speculative aspect to it, what if we had technology X and it was widespread and convenient? Or Lacked resource Y how would we as society adapt? Usually predisposing that Humanity doesn't ever change, we remain static but what makes us unique is our tools which are ever changing and ever more powerful. This is a dumb and restrictive definition of science fiction that goes straight into No True Scotsman
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Oct 5, 2014 19:33
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The Terminator is set mostly in the present day and is 1000% science fiction.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:34
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Arguments about whether something is really sci-fi are terrible. Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek, BSG, whatever other series you want to argue about : they're all sci-fi. They can also fall into other genres, and sometimes they might not take the science part too seriously, but they're all sci-fi.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:35
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computer parts posted:I mean there's present day/near future stuff (like this episode or War of the Worlds for its contemporary audience) but not much for stuff set in the past. Alien invasions don't count as sci fi? What the hell does then?
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Oct 5, 2014 19:35
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Noxville posted:The reason the 'laying a new moon' doesn't work is that it's it's so contrary to idea of how laying an egg works Stop right there. You hosed up. You shouldn't be thinking about that, because it's "Doctor Who," dummy.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:37
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MrL_JaKiri posted:The Terminator is set mostly in the present day and is 1000% science fiction. See also: Close Encounters of the Third Kind, E.T., et cetera
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Oct 5, 2014 19:37
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Turn your brain off.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:37
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I guess we've settled the Jules Verbe vs H G Wells 'father of science fiction' argument. Neither of them wrote any!
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Oct 5, 2014 19:38
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marktheando posted:Alien invasions don't count as sci fi? What the hell does then? It's science fiction but it's very narrowly defined and often very bland. What would be interesting would be a First Contact movie, I guess Close Encounters would be an example of a non-traditional sort of film in that vein. This is getting away from the central conceit though which is that science fiction is rarely if ever set in the past (Minus BSG and I guess Cowboys vs Aliens). Cerv posted:I guess we've settled the Jules Verbe vs H G Wells 'father of science fiction' argument. Neither of them wrote any! HG Wells' signature book was all about going to the future though? 
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Oct 5, 2014 19:39
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PriorMarcus posted:Which was bullshit. I'd kind of like for Doctor Who to at least be accurate about real world things rather than making poo poo up for a dumb joke. It is a kids show after all, and it at least used to try to be educational. That's all that it takes to reinforce suspension of disbelief. You have a point about educating about real animals, but Moon-laying space butterflies have no such concerns to deal with. a Small quip about baby/egg generating artificial gravity field. Or it getting nutrients from Sun/another dimension/meteors thus expanding its weight. etc etc.. Or have its mommy come to lay another egg and guide the baby away.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:40
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computer parts posted:This is getting away from the central conceit though which is that science fiction is rarely if ever set in the past (Minus BSG and I guess Cowboys vs Aliens). Want me to name ten that are definitely scifi? Let's start with Consider Phlebas by Iain M Banks, which is set about 1300AD.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:48
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marktheando posted:I am absolutely not demanding realistic physics in this show about time travel, but there is a fuckload of difference between technobabble that sounds reasonable to someone who knows nothing about physics (which is reasonable for a show like this), and the moon egg thing. It just totally took me out of the episode. I think it was going for something that was supposed to be ridiculously crazy and beyond our experience. To me it evoked an ancient mythological story that flaunts any sense of physics or logic, ie: Fenrir the wolf suddenly growing large enough to jump in the sky and swallow the sun. When you're dealing with a giant space-butterfly that hatches from the moon, you have to be prepared for more impossible things to happen.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:48
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Want me to name ten that are definitely scifi? Let's start with Consider Phlebas by Iain M Banks, which is set about 1300AD. Sure.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:49
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computer parts posted:Sure. No. Stop it. This is the worst discussion, and you are one of the prime perpetrators.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:52
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Majorian posted:No. Stop it. This is the worst discussion, and you are one of the prime perpetrators. Okay.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:53
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PriorMarcus posted:Turn your brain off. No, point your brain at what MATTERS - themes, characters, morality - rather than at technobabble and the apparant eccentricities of fictional biology.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:53
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Majorian posted:No. Stop it. This is the worst discussion, and you are one of the prime perpetrators. Actually, I want to see the list too because I'm genuinely interested which 10 he will pick. If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:53
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PriorMarcus posted:Actually, I want to see the list too because I'm genuinely interested which 10 he will pick. I already tried. I'd like to know what the detractors to this latest episode have to say about my point regarding mythology and epic tales' bending of rules. Also, this derail about what does and doesn't count as according-to-Hoyle sci-fi has pretty clearly reached an impasse. Neither side is going to back down on their subjective definition.
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Oct 5, 2014 19:57
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DoctorWhat posted:No, point your brain at what MATTERS - themes, characters, morality - rather than at technobabble and the apparant eccentricities of fictional biology. You mean like the theme in this episode where Europe gets to rule the world?
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Oct 5, 2014 19:59
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Random Stranger posted:You mean like the theme in this episode where Europe gets to rule the world? Sure! Critique it from THAT angle! Go hog wild! That's totally valid as a critique and could have been readily avoided at the directorial stage (which, as you may recall, is where I previously indicated most of my complaints lay). Complaining about the science is just empty posturing and dumb sci-fi-fandom myopia 
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Oct 5, 2014 20:03
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Majorian posted:I already tried. I'd like to know what the detractors to this latest episode have to say about my point regarding mythology and epic tales' bending of rules. Yes I do see the mythological angle, as others have posted it reminded me of the moon being a giant dragon egg thing from Game of Thrones. It just struck me as stupid. As a wise man once said, there's a fine line between clever and stupid.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:06
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marktheando posted:Yes I do see the mythological angle, as others have posted it reminded me of the moon being a giant dragon egg thing from Game of Thrones. It just struck me as stupid. As a wise man once said, there's a fine line between clever and stupid. Okay, but why are you focusing on that anyway, instead of the deconstruction of the Doctor as a character, and his relationship with humanity? Which is the freaking point of the episode.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:08
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DoctorWhat posted:No, point your brain at what MATTERS - themes, characters, morality - rather than at technobabble and the apparent eccentricities of fictional biology. The great parts of the episode had nothing at all to do with the science anyway.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:12
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Majorian posted:Okay, but why are you focusing on that anyway, instead of the deconstruction of the Doctor as a character, and his relationship with humanity? Which is the freaking point of the episode. Well I've not mentioned it because I didn't think it was very well done.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:13
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Random Stranger posted:It's not just that it's flagrantly wrong to me, it's that they used it as a plot point and then were horribly wrong about it. It's key to the episode that the moon is getting more massive. And it's key to the episode that the moon is an egg. You can go around breaking all the laws of So you're basing your opinion on how giant space dragon eggs would function based solely on how eggs work here on Earth?
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Oct 5, 2014 20:14
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LividLiquid posted:This. It bothered me too, and I thought it was stupid, but that's because I'm a pedant and can't shut off parts of my brain that are wholly unnecessary for enjoying good fiction. Exactly! It reminds me of people saying that they didn't like Lord of the Rings because WHY DIDN'T THEY TAKE THE EAGLES TO MOUNT DOOM?!?!?! Obviously, that viewpoint ignores the point of the story, and so does every complaint about the loving Moon-egg. PriorMarcus posted:Well I've not mentioned it because I didn't think it was very well done. Okay, why?
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Oct 5, 2014 20:14
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Majorian posted:Okay, but why are you focusing on that anyway, instead of the deconstruction of the Doctor as a character, and his relationship with humanity? Which is the freaking point of the episode. 1. That's what people were talking about, so I joined in the conversation about that. 2. While the confrontation between the Doctor and Clara was very well done, it was overshadowed by the ridiculousness of the moon egg thing. Everyone is going to have their own limits for this sort of thing. Most of the time I'm rolling my eyes at people complaining about bad science in fiction, but this episode was just too much for me.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:15
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DoctorWhat posted:Complaining about the science is just empty posturing and dumb sci-fi-fandom myopia No it isn't, it's just as valid a critique as anything else.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:17
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Majorian posted:Okay, why? I don't really feel like I know this Doctor enough to find the character dynamic of him letting humanity decide to be at all interesting. I have no investment in that future humanity and its golden age that we get hints of every now and then. And the debate was so ridiculously one sided that it rang totally hollow. There's probably a billion children on Earth still to be born and Clara risk all their lives on one alien life form for no reason other than the show were watching being Doctor Who. It felt like preachy bullshit to me basically so I couldn't care less. Was there ever a chance of the egg/monster destroying Earth? No, because the show we are watching is Doctor Who.
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Oct 5, 2014 20:20
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