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Ygolonac posted:From the SECRET WARRIORS series - all images click for God Secret Warriors was such a good book.
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Oct 5, 2014 06:14
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Pyronic posted:God Secret Warriors was such a good book. And it was only this (third) reading that I caught the references that tie it in with the 2010/2011 S.H.I.E.L.D. minis that go all historical secret agendas and poo poo that they NEVER loving FINISHED YOU BASTARDS I WANT TO KNOW HOW IT ENDS AAHRGHWHARBLFFFGF Although some clues are dropped in the Secret Warriors run... Same Thor-Time, Same Thor-Channel... but not the usual outcome, yes? (By the Image Hosts of Imgur, click!) Thor: Vikings Issue #2:   
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Oct 6, 2014 01:03
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It's not really badass to just be immune to stuff. If all Thor attacking me did was twist their hands apart, I could mouth off to them too.
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Oct 6, 2014 01:14
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Also that was essentially another Garth "boy do I fuckin' hate superheroes" Ennis book so Thor was pretty much doomed to failure regardless.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:25
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Heresiarch posted:Also that was essentially another Garth "boy do I fuckin' hate superheroes" Ennis book so Thor was pretty much doomed to failure regardless. It's a while since I read it but I'm pretty sure it ends with Thor collecting a team of people from throughout time who successfully fought or had ancestors who fought the Vikings and then proceeding to just beat the poo poo out of the zombie vikings? Or something about the main bad guy's bloodline being the key to his weakness?
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Oct 6, 2014 03:51
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Jerusalem posted:It's a while since I read it but I'm pretty sure it ends with Thor collecting a team of people from throughout time who successfully fought or had ancestors who fought the Vikings and then proceeding to just beat the poo poo out of the zombie vikings? It's that. The guy who originally cursed the Vikings screwed up and made the spell much more powerful than he intended, so they sailed the ocean for a thousand years and showed up in New York as unstoppable zombies. Dr. Strange figures it out, then finds three warrior descendants of the original spellcaster and uses their blood to fuel a counterspell. The last issue of the book would actually fit pretty nicely into this thread, as it features Thor punching the leader of the Vikings into low orbit.
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Oct 6, 2014 05:17
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It was still dumb because Gods trump human magic. Plus implied zombie rape so gently caress that book.
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Oct 6, 2014 07:10
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SirDan3k posted:It was still dumb because Gods trump human magic. If there's one thing Garth Ennis hates more than superheroes it's God(s) so he was doublefucked.
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Oct 6, 2014 15:05
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Without some kind of context, I'm really not seeing what's remotely badass about Odin sneak attacking an unarmed woman who wasn't really doing anything at that particular moment. Kinda lovely really.
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Oct 6, 2014 19:51
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Sentinel Red posted:Without some kind of context, I'm really not seeing what's remotely badass about Odin sneak attacking an unarmed woman who wasn't really doing anything at that particular moment. Kinda lovely really. Kinda lovely really is odin's entire characterisation both in comics and mythology.
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Oct 6, 2014 20:58
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Puntification posted:Kinda lovely really is odin's entire characterisation both in comics and mythology. That is the characterization of every god. People were weird in what they wanted from a deity.
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Oct 7, 2014 00:39
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Older religions had much better justifications for the existence of evil in the world. Why did God not protect my sheep from the plague? Because he's a drunken rear end in a top hat!
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Oct 7, 2014 00:47
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Heresiarch posted:Also that was essentially another Garth "boy do I fuckin' hate superheroes" Ennis book so Thor was pretty much doomed to failure regardless. I do not understand how Ennis got really any work at all on the mainstream superhero books. I understand the counter-comics-culture appeal and poo poo but wow gently caress that whole gimmick of his.
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Oct 7, 2014 09:29
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It's because he's by far one of the best writers going and despite the fact the he thinks a lot of superhero tropes are dumb he still has a respect for the craft and can tell great stories with them.
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Oct 7, 2014 09:37
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The best "superheroes, sigh" story I've ever read was Black Summer, which is also one of my favorite comics ever, period. Sometime I really need to read No Hero too.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:13
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CharlestheHammer posted:That is the characterization of every god. I don't remember the exact quote, but Terry Pratchett summed it up nicely by pointing out that people made gods to do the things they were incapable of, especially in the areas of nymphs and the smiting of one's enemies.
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Oct 7, 2014 17:20
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Pyronic posted:God Secret Warriors was such a good book. I've picked up the plot by some osmosis, and it's never made sense to me... So SHIELD was really a subset of Hydra its whole existence...except it was really the opposite. This worked in Winter Soldier, but not so much a comic universe with dozens of stories. Why did HYDRA allow its mortal enemies to hand it so many defeats that were, at best, inconvenient? That's the general problem of "This is my real plan all along, all the other plans you thwarted were just to trick you!" stories, especially in the modern day. Can they even be told credibly any more?
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Oct 8, 2014 03:12
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I don't actually know the series you're referring to, but just in general, yes it's possible to write an effective plot around that. You send operatives in deep undercover, and give them one, and only one reason to break that cover. They'll work at odds with you as much as necessary, even seriously loving you over at times, if the goal they are trying to arrive at is great enough to outweigh a million minor setbacks. If the plan is grandiose enough, then the slightest chance of loving it up by "accidentally" fudging a capture, or slipping some information back to the main group is unacceptable. Again, not saying that's what happened, I'd have to read the series to know for sure, but that's at least one way I can easily see that kind of a plot playing out.
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Oct 8, 2014 08:17
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Cornwind Evil posted:I've picked up the plot by some osmosis, and it's never made sense to me... HYDRA's plan works by thinking bigger and remembering their core philosophy and history. First off, the modern HYDRA is heavily influenced by fascist ideas through von Strucker - even more so now that the Captain America movies have come out that source HYDRA directly from the Third Reich. Fascism in general and Nazism in particular are philosophies of endless conflict. You can actually read early fascist literature where they talk about how, if they somehow managed to conquer the whole world, they'd just have to split up into teams and go to war with each other for the rest of time. They didn't consider this at all contradictory with 'imposing order on the world' or what have you. Second, SHIELD is actually in a much better position to advance HYDRA's goals than any other HYDRA subdivision, because it has legitimate authority and because it's a unification between military and corporate power, which is a fascist concept. The plan works because it makes the winner of any conflicts between SHIELD and HYDRA irrelevant. Say HYDRA's stirring up trouble in Ruritanian communications networks and SHIELD goes in to stop them. If HYDRA win, they win. If SHIELD wins, then gosh it looks like HYDRA was going after your communications networks Mr. Prime Minister, if you were to install this SHIELD uplink we'd be able to defend them much more effectively. Ultimately it doesn't matter how many individual plans SHIELD foils, or how many they fail to, because the process of the conflict between them advances HYDRA's aims. Win or lose, somebody's going to have a little bit more of their autonomy incorporated into a secret global paramilitary force. This is their basic doctrine: cut off one head, and two more will take its place. This plan actually works better if neither side is ever fully triumphant. If SHIELD plus the security state it arises from and HYDRA manage to split the world between them, with all authority and all military and informational and technological power being either in the possession of SHIELD or HYDRA and absolutely no one else, then HYDRA has won. It has defined the world as an endless conflict between effectively-fascist blocs. This works even if they never actually had any agents in SHIELD. edit to add: So with regard to specific HYDRA agents in SHIELD, their work would be all ideological rather than tactical. You don't want them spoiling a SHIELD mission to destroy a HYDRA ray gun - that's pointless. It could blow their cover, and anyway you don't conquer the Earth with a ray gun. You conquer it with ideas, and their job is to make sure that SHIELD continues to reproduce HYDRA's ideas. They influence who gets promoted, who gets listened to, they stonewall FOIA requests and speak to intelligence committees about pending legislation. They make the Tough Decisions to Keep Our Boys Safe. Nick Fury can say he's not a HYDRA agent, but he can't be sure of that - thanks to LMDs, he can't even be sure he's Nick Fury, any more than Doctor Doom can be sure he's Doctor Doom. Dammit Who? fucked around with this message at 09:44 on Oct 8, 2014 |
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Oct 8, 2014 09:30
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Or, uh, maybe the writers at marvel just said "wouldn't it be cool if..." and then went from there. Aka how to write every episode of lost.
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Oct 8, 2014 20:44
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Dammit Who? posted:any more than Doctor Doom can be sure he's Doctor Doom. I can see Doctor Doom wiping Hydra out completely in a fit of pique over this statement. Doom: Now who would deny Doom is Doom!?! Hydra: We never said you weren't? And how does this help? This makes no sense at all  Doom: SILENCE! 
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Oct 8, 2014 22:40
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Jerusalem posted:Doom: Now who would deny Doom is Doom!?! Doombot #642-b: Doom would! ... wait poo poo am I not Doom?
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Oct 9, 2014 01:40
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Dammit Who? posted:a scary analysis of the conflict between SHIELD and Hydra  Well that's pretty unsettling, thanks.
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Oct 9, 2014 12:59
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Dammit Who? posted:stuff dang, this is a pretty succinct description on why i feel that the SHIELD tv show actively taints the second captain america movie as a whole. cap 2 revolves around the same idea that SHIELD and HYDRA are fundamentally the same type of organization as it's central message while the tv show goes out of it's way to place SHIELD within the right, effectively stating that the consolidation of power in that manner as a good and necessary thing rather than something that's absolutely terrifying and evil. it's infuriating how much of a total 180 the show is on the movie's message. especially considering that the show takes the conflict within the movie at absolute face value and goes "oh, hydra are just the secret nazis within shield and the government!" rather than the actual message of hydra's facist ideology effectively being the root of organizations like SHIELD.
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Oct 9, 2014 14:14
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I have no idea what needs to be spoilered here since the movies have been out for awhile now, but figured I'd err on the side of caution. Captain America 2 was so refreshing, especially after Avengers so casually included stuff like mass surveillance and both exposed and celebrated the way Fury manipulated the Avengers to get them to do what he wanted. Having Winter Soldier then come out and acknowledge that actually this poo poo was terrifying and have a literal Nazi tell Captain America,"Yeah, we basically won because everything went our way in the end" had real impact, and resetting the board by having Cap/Widow/Falcon expose SHIELD and take down the helicarriers was great. Very disappointing to hear the show has apparently missed this message.
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Oct 9, 2014 22:14
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The show kind of can't though. If you argue that super-spies are inherently bad, then the whole premise crumbles. Just like you can't examine Batman as a rich white dude spending his nights punching poor black kids too closely.
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Oct 9, 2014 22:44
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Oh word? Batman's premise is about punching destitute minorities? drat, learn something new every day.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:18
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My point was that if you take any part of superhero comics to a realistic end, they fall apart. You can't expect SHIELD to be the exception.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:20
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Gaz-L posted:The show kind of can't though. If you argue that super-spies are inherently bad, then the whole premise crumbles. Just like you can't examine Batman as a rich white dude spending his nights punching poor black kids too closely. Actually if you're willing to acknowledge these things head-on and admit they're kind-of hosed up, even if you don't "fix" them, your product comes across as much stronger because it acknowledges its limitations and doesn't try to present the film's specific hero as a panacea, and instead as what a superhero actually is-- a modern update on the Greek legend concept reflecting specific modern archetypes and ideas via specific settings, villains, powers, and even costuming.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:31
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Jerusalem posted:Very disappointing to hear the show has apparently missed this message. I don't know that it's missed the message so much as it's trying to incorporate it while still being, y'know, a show about Agents of SHIELD. That is to say, the SHIELD we're getting in the show, these days, is much less Big Brother - they can't be Big Brother, they're down to a handful of guys. Their motivation, too, has largely up to this point been about getting themselves back on their feet and cleaning up the mess left behind by the dissolution of SHIELD 1.0, rather than saying "Welp we better get to work surveilling the entire planet again." It reminds me a lot of the comics SHIELD after the Deltite Affair, really. In that story SHIELD gets too big and cumbersome for even Fury to effectively manage, which is how he's taken by surprise when a bunch of LMDs start replacing agents and subverting the agency until it all turns to poo poo; at the end of it all SHIELD is revamped as a much smaller task force under UN auspices, comprised entirely of people Fury can trust. There're a lot of parallels to be drawn, obviously. Now, it's still early in the second season; there's plenty of time for the show to gently caress it up. But the core conceit seems largely to be "Coulson and his agents try and keep the world safe even though no one's providing any real oversight and in fact a lot of people would like them to be stopped," which is a descriptor you could use about the Avengers at various times in that team's history, too.
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Oct 9, 2014 23:34
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This episode of SHIELD was really good. The show's real good. Even Skye is getting to be kind of awesome.
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Oct 10, 2014 00:13
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Jerusalem posted:I have no idea what needs to be spoilered here since the movies have been out for awhile now, but figured I'd err on the side of caution. I wouldn't say the show is doing what would disappoint you. Coulsen is very much a true believer in being a good guy. Him and whats left of the loyal SHIELD are trying to build a better organization from the ground up while dealing with the huge mess Winter Soldier and Hydra created.
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Oct 10, 2014 01:12
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Babe Magnet posted:Oh word? Batman's premise is about punching destitute minorities? drat, learn something new every day. Yeah which of Batman's villains were black again?
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Oct 10, 2014 02:58
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Rough Lobster posted:Yeah which of Batman's villains were black again? Thug #3 and Hoodlum F And yes, point taken, my hyperbole could've been better thought out.
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Oct 10, 2014 03:01
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Batman is about the rich oppressing the poor and keeping the class divide strong, not white supremacy. That's Superman.
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Oct 10, 2014 03:07
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*drops magic hammer*
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Oct 10, 2014 03:09
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Lurdiak posted:Batman is about the rich oppressing the poor and keeping the class divide strong, not white supremacy. Superman wove his racism into the very fabric of his universe's chronosphere.
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Oct 10, 2014 03:13
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While there are a huge number of racist moments in comics, we should remember the time Superman defeated the KKK in real life.
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Oct 10, 2014 03:22
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Rough Lobster posted:Yeah which of Batman's villains were black again? Half of Harvey Dent.
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Oct 10, 2014 06:15
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Trast posted:I wouldn't say the show is doing what would disappoint you. Coulsen is very much a true believer in being a good guy. Him and whats left of the loyal SHIELD are trying to build a better organization from the ground up while dealing with the huge mess Winter Soldier and Hydra created. The whole point is that you can't build a 'better' organization like that.
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Oct 10, 2014 09:18
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