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Roland Jones posted:"If you don't tell the player to make what they want of the system, then they can't and it's a failure of a system"? Am I really reading that right? I don't even like 4e because I've never played it, but it sounds like you're really, really reaching for reasons why 4e is bad here. You already have a conclusion and you're looking for ways to get to it, and it's really blatant. I am talking about why I think 4e, a game I enjoy and have played continuously since release (Warforged Ranger 17 from 1st, thx) is imperfect. Relax. EDIT: Yes, if you don't tell someone how to play your game you did not write the game very well. MalcolmSheppard fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 02:51
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Roland Jones posted:"If you don't tell the player to make what they want of the system, then they can't and it's a failure of a system"? Am I really reading that right? I don't even like 4e because I've never played it, but it sounds like you're really, really reaching for reasons why 4e is bad here. You already have a conclusion and you're looking for ways to get to it, and it's really blatant. No. He's saying that 4e fails to provide a coherent set of reasons, (or rather, fails to communicate its coherent set of reasons) for its mechanics. So, for example, the pseudo-Vancian magic of pre-4e D&D has had all kinds of ways it falls apart if you prod it too hard, but it still has a basic reason- you memorize the spell and it vanishes from your memory when you cast it. Another example- Vitae in V:TM and V:TR has a basic reason for existing- you can get so much use out of blood to sustain undeath and your vampiric powers, even if you can't really assign a volume of blood to each point. The other end of things is to explicitly say that there's no reason and tell the players that it's up to them to justify it. This is rarer, but that's how HP and saves were explained in early editions of D&D. 4e takes the first road, generally, but leaves it implicit with most of the setting. That is, martial daily and encounter powers have a reason for existing- you're pushing yourself physically and it exhausts you. As you level up, you develop more stamina, until at level 10 you've reached the peak of humanoid abilities, barring the intervention of paragon paths and epic destinies, where you develop superhuman abilities. From that point on, you merely develop better ways of using your stamina. This was never explicitly outlined anywhere, just left to assumptions, which is a large part of why complaints about 4e take the form they do.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:59
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Gazetteer posted:Why would anyone ever pick just one or the other?
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Oct 6, 2014 03:28
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Zereth posted:Are you suggesting people brew their coffee with tea, or the other way around? Coffee beans actually aren't bad in certain tea blends.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:55
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Gerund posted:You're introducing an alien invasion into my fantasy? That is a betrayal of the Gygaxian milieu  
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Oct 6, 2014 05:18
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Yo, Chai Tea with a little bit of milk and sugar is one of the most relaxing drinks I've ever had and does wonders for a sore throat
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Oct 6, 2014 05:43
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Kai Tave posted:"Riddick would be more dangerous with a gun" is a really weird argument because how, exactly? There's never a point where he tries shanking someone and uh-oh, it turns out he needed to bring a better weapon to kill that guy. Early on, the only time Rddick gets close enough to threaten him with his shiv, it doesn't matter, the Merc still has the advantage in that situation, because of his status. 'Super-cool' Riddick actually loses his poo poo at that point, because he knows the Merc has him in the corner pocket, and suspects that the Merc is playing them all, but he can't do anything about it. Literally that scene is framed by the Merc pointing his gun at Riidick, and then using it to set him free- clearly, displaying the power the weapon gives him, but at the same time, demonstrating that he doesn't need the gun right now, because he's also got the badge(this is a subversion of the clasic trope btw). Riddick only ends up beating him because the Merc loses his advantages- he turns heel, gets caught in the dark, and fucks up his ammo. Riddick does use a better weapon to kill the guy, that being the harsh alien environment (which is a key Riddick trope that all this chuck-norris-esque bullshit is ignoring). On the flipside, the fight only happens because the Merc outs himself as a heel, so his other advantage- his badge- is stripped away as well. This is the problem with this horribly bland 'plot pointz' approach to things. Only poo poo writers rely on plot devices as all-conquering blunt instruments. Good writers give their work substance, and in RPGS, the system is there to aid in that. You lose nuance, and substance and dynamism, and everything just ends up being about rolling your 'overcome obstacles' roll and then make up some meaningless poo poo. You want to pretend that by making a fetish of story of character, or plot device, or trope, you end up closer to those things, but there's a reason 'Pitch Black' was a much better movie than 'Riddick vs Skeletor', and it's because one takes the time to put substance and weight into all those little moments of struggle, giving them both concrete and thematic weight, and the other says "gently caress yeah Riddick wooo wooo". MalcolmSheppard posted:As a game designer, you need to do one of the following: What you're demanding of it is that it include a value that people only demanded because they pretended 4e lacked it. And let's be clear here, it's not as if 4e was lacking in that respect really, issues like abstract HP and such are common to all editions. But 4e haters made up a myth about 4e, and you're criticizing it for not servicing that myth. quote:2) Give specific guidance to make the system your own. "What does a daily power mean to a fighter? This depends on the player, the DM and the assumptions of the campaign. If fighters are mystical martial artists, the fighter might use a special kata or fighting pattern that conjures magical skill. In a more grounded campaign, a fighter's daily power is a moment of peak performance, like that used by any other athlete. You can decide this before rolling but you might want to go with the result, instead of the power itself--a graze was really a minor blow, for example." Yes, it does not answer a question who's only purpose is to make to look bad. But again, that's not a valid criteria, and it's not as if 3e or 2e or 1e answered those pressing questions, either. quote:These approaches meet in the middle, of course, but in any event you need to develop the system's relationship with the fiction in a more than perfunctory fashion. We tend to think of 3e in its bloated end state, but many templated bonuses and the like represented either material or magical things in the world. This was quickly extrapolated to the point of meaninglessness, but that grounding was there. MalcolmSheppard posted:I am talking about why I think 4e, a game I enjoy and have played continuously since release (Warforged Ranger 17 from 1st, thx) is imperfect. Relax. 4e Does BETTER at painting a picture of the world. It describes every single power! You're just creating a false standard based on what bitchy grognards say, and if you're daft enough to agree with them then I pity your audience. Effectronica posted:No. He's saying that 4e fails to provide a coherent set of reasons, (or rather, fails to communicate its coherent set of reasons) for its mechanics. 4e PHB makes perfectly clear what they are. It's just people lie and say they don't. There has never been any substance to this claim. 4e specifically explains, explicitly, in IC terms, what a power is and the types, what a power source is, and then offers specific descriptions of every power in the book. It does a better job of this than any other edition. And then you say "but but but they didn't use this exact wording about this exact subject that a grog whined about in an essay on enworld!" This criticism is a false criteria. There is nothing here but bitchy fans telling lies, and Game Developers making up poo poo to appease bitchy fans telling lies. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 6, 2014 06:26
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I'm completely lost now. Why are we talking about a not-so-great set of action thriller thingy movies again? Can we talk about something nicer like Hot Guys Making Out before Ettin breaks in with his TG-men and shuts us down?
Davin Valkri fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 06:34
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A Catastrophe posted:Did you guys even watch pitch black? A single Merc with a shotgun is more than a match for Riddick, because he has a gun, and because he has other superior tools at his disposal, such as status. It's only when he loses those advantages, those symbols and objects, that Riddick can take him out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iGqbacjtBg The Alien in Alien is a very different creature than the exact same monster in Aliens. Different movies in the same series can be in different genres and have different rules for the same character. Die Hard is another good example of this, actually.
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Oct 6, 2014 06:42
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I've only ever watched Riddick vs Skeletor actually
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Oct 6, 2014 06:55
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Anyone know where I can find art of warrior women that doesn't have the creepy, male gaze applied to it?
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Oct 6, 2014 07:37
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I try to keep that sort of thing out of my dropbox, although there's a few that are borderline - still, might not be a bad place to start: link
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Oct 6, 2014 07:46
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RPZip posted:I try to keep that sort of thing out of my dropbox, although there's a few that are borderline - still, might not be a bad place to start: link Thanks for the help.
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Oct 6, 2014 07:52
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On pretty much exactly the same note, I have a dropbox folder for art too.
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Oct 6, 2014 07:54
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To keep it going, here's a tumblr that's generally pretty good!
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Oct 6, 2014 08:21
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Here is another!
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Oct 6, 2014 09:56
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MalcolmSheppard posted:As a game designer, you need to do one of the following: Here's what's hosed up: both 1 and 2 are explicitly present in 4e. The PHB explains that using a daily exploit (as opposed to a daily spell or daily prayer) specifically represents pulling deeply on immense reserves of physical and mental energy that you can't easily recover. The game provides default flavor for every power but mentions explicitly that individual characters' usages might look different. The "uses secret, then-counterable technique" and "takes advantage of a moment of amazing luck, such that diegetically it's not up to your character whether your character can deploy a daily" explanations for martial dailies are both completely noncanonical, even though even fans of 4e often assume that that's what martial dailies represent - after all, if they were canonical then common criticisms of the "well why can't I try again vs. a blind or mindless monster" sort would have traction. (Those dailies which do read "Taking advantage of a moment of weakness, you..." are generally the ones whose rules text reads Target: One creature granting combat advantage to you) Unfortunately, this stuff was subtle and easily lost, and it wasn't explicitly consolidated and extrapolated into a set of default setting assumptions. Like, the difference between a Fighter and some guy who'd probably show up in a monster manual as "town guard, level 3" is a real thing - "town guard, level 3" might have a better attack bonus and more hitpoints, but does not have daily powers, healing surges, or other signifiers of access to heroic drama, which has strong implications re: what the fantasy world 4e describes looks like - but it was largely up to you to pick up on this from scattered snippets of rules and flavor text. Honestly, if you kept every word of 4e exactly the same but replaced the color-coded boxes with color-coded crinkly scrolls or something you'd probably have headed off half the backlash or more.
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Oct 6, 2014 13:43
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So, I need a good name for the Djinn mafia in my Ottoman/Persian setting.
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Oct 6, 2014 14:25
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The Benevolent Order of the Smokeless Fire.
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Oct 6, 2014 14:45
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ascendance posted:So, I need a good name for the Djinn mafia in my Ottoman/Persian setting. Why not just "The Cartel" or something similar and the players discover it's run by djinns? Is it a setting where there is no value in hiding who runs it because everyone already knows? If that's the case, then, "The Djinno Family"
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Oct 6, 2014 14:49
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ascendance posted:So, I need a good name for the Djinn mafia in my Ottoman/Persian setting. The Fire Families. The Magia.
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Oct 6, 2014 14:50
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unseenlibrarian posted:The Benevolent Order of the Smokeless Fire. They basically control the building trades (through ruthless magical undercutting), garbage disposal (through dumping into elemental planes, which they turn around and sell scavenging rights to the dumps), and shape shifting prostitution. They are tolerated by political elites because they can grant Wishes.
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Oct 6, 2014 14:52
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fosborb posted:Why not just "The Cartel" or something similar and the players discover it's run by djinns? Is it a setting where there is no value in hiding who runs it because everyone already knows? If that's the case, then, "The Djinno Family"
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Oct 6, 2014 14:54
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I was also hoping that someone who is Persian or Turkish could provide me with some kind of interesting cultural reference or catchphrase to use with naming my Djinn Mafia.
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Oct 6, 2014 14:58
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What is the metaphysical reality of the roleplaying world as revealed by its systems? That barring outright impossibility, an action will always succeed, on the average, once for every twenty attempts? Perhaps instead of the system being informed by the reality of the game world, it is merely a defined method for a group of players to interact with scenarios managed by another player? I postulate that the world of D&D in the fourth age is a set of discrete two-dimensional planes connected by holes in time and space called "stairs". Wales Grey fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 16:01
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Wales Grey posted:Perhaps instead of the system being informed by the reality of the game world, it is merely a defined method for a group of players to interact with scenarios managed by another player? No, it's actually true that only the most powerful ritualists can open portals to anywhere rather than to predefined portal circles, or that it's mostly only divine magic that can heal wounds and restore vitality without fatiguing its subject in the process, or that the difference between a normal and heroic person lies chiefly in things like endurance, comeback potential, and give-it-your-all ability rather than in raw power or toughness. 4e describes a specific, cool fantasy world.
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Oct 6, 2014 16:23
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ascendance posted:So, I need a good name for the Djinn mafia in my Ottoman/Persian setting. The Make-A-Wish Foundation
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Oct 6, 2014 16:37
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Just have them call themselves "The Foundation" - maybe use the Arabic word for it.
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Oct 6, 2014 16:39
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Ferrinus posted:No, it's actually true that only the most powerful ritualists PC ritualists. An NPC "ritualist" can do whatever the hell the DM wants them to, because they don't use rituals or powers. They quite probably don't even have stats! Trying to use the PC mechanics to describe the world doesn't work, because those mechanics are explicitly only for PCs. Tulul fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 16:50
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Tulul posted:PC ritualists. An NPC "ritualist" can do whatever the hell the DM wants them to, because they don't use rituals or powers. They quite probably don't even have stats! No, that's not true. A ritual's level is meaningful setting information. Linked Portal being 8 while Planar Portal being 16 is real, strong, and my friend. There's no explicit mention that rituals or powers or healing surges or whatever are only for PCs. In fact, none of those things are, and there are rules for non-PCs spending surges, non-PCs using class powers, etc. The DMG literally explains that a large part of a monster's attack bonus is made up of assumed but abstracted-away feats and items, for instance; that's why that old criticism of Trollman's that a flying, melee-range monster is stupid for not picking up a bow is baseless - it wouldn't have the same attack and damage with a bow! Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 16:53
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FMguru posted:Just have them call themselves "The Foundation" - maybe use the Arabic word for it.
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Oct 6, 2014 17:05
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BrainParasite posted:The Make-A-Wish Foundation This is it by the way
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Oct 6, 2014 17:07
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ascendance posted:So, I need a good name for the Djinn mafia in my Ottoman/Persian setting. The Conference of the Wise Guys
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Oct 6, 2014 18:25
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Ferrinus posted:Here's what's hosed up: both 1 and 2 are explicitly present in 4e. The PHB explains that using a daily exploit (as opposed to a daily spell or daily prayer) specifically represents pulling deeply on immense reserves of physical and mental energy that you can't easily recover. The game provides default flavor for every power but mentions explicitly that individual characters' usages might look different. The "uses secret, then-counterable technique" and "takes advantage of a moment of amazing luck, such that diegetically it's not up to your character whether your character can deploy a daily" explanations for martial dailies are both completely noncanonical, even though even fans of 4e often assume that that's what martial dailies represent - after all, if they were canonical then common criticisms of the "well why can't I try again vs. a blind or mindless monster" sort would have traction. (Those dailies which do read "Taking advantage of a moment of weakness, you..." are generally the ones whose rules text reads Target: One creature granting combat advantage to you) Did you now, or did you ever, post under the name "Frank Trollman?"
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Oct 6, 2014 18:49
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Who's that?
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Oct 6, 2014 19:00
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I don't regret the donations we all gave to The Trevor Project the other month, but I do regret giving them my actual email address. It seems like every week I get a new email, and when I click the unsubscribe link it says I've been unsubscribed from that specific marketing list. But so far there's been five or six different lists and I'm getting really annoyed.
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Oct 6, 2014 19:35
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So on another site, a random poster mentioned this cute little, free Wuxia game. Looks pretty neat on a first read through. http://www.lulu.com/shop/ben-wright/rivers-and-lakes/ebook/product-17387884.html
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Oct 6, 2014 19:58
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inklesspen posted:I don't regret the donations we all gave to The Trevor Project the other month, but I do regret giving them my actual email address. It seems like every week I get a new email, and when I click the unsubscribe link it says I've been unsubscribed from that specific marketing list. But so far there's been five or six different lists and I'm getting really annoyed. Just keep at it. It gets better.
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Oct 6, 2014 19:59
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inklesspen posted:I don't regret the donations we all gave to The Trevor Project the other month, but I do regret giving them my actual email address. It seems like every week I get a new email, and when I click the unsubscribe link it says I've been unsubscribed from that specific marketing list. But so far there's been five or six different lists and I'm getting really annoyed. This is why I used Amazon Smile instead of giving a direct donation. Getting something nice in the process was a nice perk, too.
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Oct 6, 2014 22:21
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So Humble Bundle is doing a Dark Conspiracy bundle. Looks like what Shadowrun meets Lovecraft and what C-Tech wishes it were. Anyone got any more info on it?
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Oct 7, 2014 00:47
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